Federer's 2nd serve

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by drgnpride, Aug 18, 2007.

  1. drgnpride

    drgnpride Rookie

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    was bouncing over hewitt's head, hewitt should have tried overhead, that's quite the kicker.
     
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  2. stormholloway

    stormholloway Legend

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    Federer's serve is the most underrated on tour in my opinion. His 1st serve pct. was like 80% in the second set.

    It's very accurate, disguised, and consistent.
     
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  3. federerGOAT

    federerGOAT Rookie

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    I've always said that Fed has a good serve, just as good or better than Sampras.
     
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  4. natasha_nana

    natasha_nana Rookie

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    Yeah I agree with all of the above...he can serve pretty fast too, which often goes unnoticed just because it isn't Roddick or Karlovic fast.

    And best of all, his body position is the same for all serves, so very unreadable in general.
     
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  5. tennispro11

    tennispro11 Hall of Fame

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    Same with his ball toss. He can hit all his serves with the same ball toss.
     
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  6. TennezSport

    TennezSport Hall of Fame

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    Well.....

    If you look at the numbers, Feds first serve is alctall faster than Petes first serves on average. However, Petes second serves had more spin than Feds, but he is currently working on that issue. Fed servce is indeed underrated.

    TennezSport :cool:
     
    #6
  7. dave333

    dave333 Hall of Fame

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    His serve is nice, but has had some pretty terrible numbers, like during the FO.
     
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  8. rod99

    rod99 Professional

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    that's laughable and i don't even like sampras
     
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  9. Fedexeon

    Fedexeon Hall of Fame

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    His serve has been great in US Open series. Saved him in few occasions this year, like in Wimbledon against Nadal. Many aces from him lately.
     
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  10. stormholloway

    stormholloway Legend

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    I've seen the Sampras/Federer Wimbledon match many times and Federer doesn't even come close to Pete's pace. Sure, his serve has improved and he uses a higher powered racquet, but I think the radar guns are different these days.
     
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  11. Ambivalent

    Ambivalent Hall of Fame

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    You guys are forgetting that when Pete's down 0-40 on his serve, theres about a 25% chance he'll ace you five times in a row.
     
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  12. Andres

    Andres G.O.A.T.

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  13. Mad iX

    Mad iX Semi-Pro

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    Fed's serve is pretty good, but imo Sampras' was better, especially in the crunch.
     
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  14. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    I strongly agree. And, after seeing both serves in real life, it seems like Sampras' serve was a lot heavier. Heck, it went right through Rafter's strings. Like to see Fed do that.
     
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  15. Mike Bulgakov

    Mike Bulgakov Semi-Pro

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    This sort of study should be repeated with current players and a large sample size for each player.


    Even more than the groundstrokes, the serve is often described in terms of spin as being hit "flat" or with "topspin" or "slice". Our study shows that the only meaningful use of these terms is a relative one. There is no such thing as a "flat serve" in tennis. On the first serve, most players that we studied generated more spin than on either of their groundstrokes, and the second serve yielded the highest spin rates in the game.

    The lowest average spin rates on the first serve were 1600-1700rpm. Michael Chang, for example, hit 7 first serves with an average speed of 112mph and and an average spin rate of 1677rpm. 8 of the 10 men studied averaged well spin of well over 2000rpm on their first serves.

    Pete Sampras, known for having one of the best serves in pro tennis, hit 11 first serves with an average radar gun velocity of 120mph and and an average spin rate of 2699rpm, easily the highest combination of ball spin and ball speed tested.

    Shot: Men's First Serve

    Player:
    No. of Serves:
    Avg MPH:
    RPM Range:
    Avg RPM:

    Marcelo Rios
    2
    92mph
    3000-3333rpm
    3167rpm

    Jim Courier
    6
    108mph
    2500-4054rpm
    2842rpm

    Todd Martin
    7
    98mph
    1667-3947rpm
    2798rpm

    Tomas Muster
    8
    105mph
    1667-4284rpm
    2754rpm

    Pete Sampras
    11
    120mph
    2100-4260rpm
    2699rpm

    Petr Korda
    7
    101mph
    1579-3750rpm
    2688rpm

    Andre Agassi
    9
    102mph
    1200-4284rpm
    2449rpm

    Mark Philippousis
    3
    123mph
    1765-2830rpm
    2198rpm

    Michael Chang
    7
    112mph
    1000-3750rpm
    1677rpm

    Tim Henman
    2
    120mph
    1429-1667rpm
    1548rpm

    The Combination of Speed and Spin

    We determined from our ball speed study that on a serve hit at 120mph, it takes roughly 2/3's of a second for the ball to travel from the server's racket to the racket of the returner. This means that a typical Sampras serve turned over about 30 times in the fraction of a second it takes to travel across the length of the court!

    Sampras's ability to generate both velocity and spin on his first serve may explain his ability to serve with such great consistency and effectiveness, particularly under pressure.

    Petr Korda and Tomas Muster, for example, generated averaged roughly the same amount of spin as Sampras on their first serves, ie, 2600 to 2700rpm, but each averaged speeds of only slightly more than 100mph. In our data, Michael Chang's personal highest first serve velocity was 122mph, but the spin rate on this serve was only 1071rpm, well less than half of the spin Sampras achieved on serves of similar speed. Andre Agassi's fastest recorded serve was 121mph and this serve came the closest to flat of any serve studied spinning at less than 300rpms.

    Spin on the Second Serve

    The fastest spinning shot in pro tennis was the second serve. Average spin rates on the second serves among the men all exceeded even the average spin rate of Sergi Bruguera's forehand (3351rpm), ranging from a low of 3370rpm for Todd Martin to a high of 4650rpm for Andre Agassi.

    Sampras's average second serve spin rate (4623rpm) was nearly identical to Agassi's. However, he achieved more than 10mph in additional second serve velocity, averaging 85mph, compared to Agassi's 74mph. As with his first serve, Sampras's ability to generate both spin and speed on the second serve is a probable key in understanding his overall serving effectiveness.

    Shot: Men's Second Serve

    Player:
    No. of Serves:
    Avg MPH:
    RPM Range:
    Avg RPM:

    Andre Agassi
    9
    74mph
    4054-4998rpm
    4650rpm

    Tim Henman
    2
    85mph
    4284-4998rpm
    4641rpm

    Pete Sampras
    4
    85mph
    3900-5357rpm
    4623rpm

    Tomas Muster
    2
    71mph
    3750-4998rpm
    4374rpm

    Mark Philippousis
    4
    99mph
    2830-4546rpm
    4018rpm

    Petr Korda
    3
    88mph
    3750-4284rpm
    4017rpm

    Michael Chang
    10
    77mph
    3125-4284rpm
    3928rpm

    Jim Courier
    4
    91mph
    3571-4167rpm
    3810rpm

    Todd Martin
    10
    89mph
    3000-4284rpm
    3370rpm
     
    #15
  16. tennispro11

    tennispro11 Hall of Fame

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    You need to quote your sources. Where is this from? What date was it done? Who did the research?
     
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  17. David L

    David L Hall of Fame

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  18. tennispro11

    tennispro11 Hall of Fame

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  19. rosenstar

    rosenstar Professional

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    this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. THe radar guns are different? If anything they're more accurate.

    as far as Fed's serve goes, I don't think it's the biggest, but it's definitely one of the best.
     
    #19
  20. Defcon

    Defcon Hall of Fame

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    ^ you're both saying the same thing - radar guns today and more accurate and thus different. Its a well known fact.
     
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  21. nBladed

    nBladed Rookie

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    I was in person to see the Indian Wells final between Fed and Blake last year. I was about 9-10 rows back. I was amazed at his 2nd. It really hopped up over Blakes head and there were a couple of times that it stunned Blake as the ball hit the ground and popped way up in the air. He looked off guard. This doesn't come through on television.

    In spite of that I feel Fed is playing really poorly this year, or at least not nearly as crisply.
     
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  22. Ambivalent

    Ambivalent Hall of Fame

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    Yeah but wasn't that before poly stringing and stuff? Fed's serves are being hit by stronger strings with more stable patterns. Also, Fed's serves may not be going THROUGH strings, but they probably are breaking them. Finally, Sampras's serve going through Rafter's strings was a rare incidence - I watched the clip on youtube and it looked as if Rafter barely swung for it. Obviously, if you dont swing and the string snaps, itll go through. If you swing though, the resistance would actually push the ball forward at least SOME, resulting in just a plain broken string.

    Still, Sampras>Fed in serves.
     
    #22
  23. daddy

    daddy Legend

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    ITs really not something you can compare that easily. Serve consist of too many different factors, and it also kind of depends who you play. If you have a high kick second serve agains a player whos not used to hit backhand so high, hes going to be pushed back and prolly lose a point. If you do that agains aggasi, hell slam it in the rise and make a winner of it. ITs a matter which needs more scientific aproach than I saw this and you saw that .. IMO
     
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