Federers ball toss,

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by kimba, Feb 13, 2009.

  1. kimba

    kimba Rookie

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    Hi all,
    I just got a new software program that allows me to use my videos of my serve and have another server in shadow over the top of me. I used roger federer as my model, I noticed the biggest difference is with his left arm he throws the ball up and his left arm stays parralell to the baseline keeping him sideways until contact. my arm was closer to 90 degrees to the baseline putting me more front on at contact. How important is it for the ball toss arm to go up paralell to the baseline?and remain side on untill contact?
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2009
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  2. gangster33

    gangster33 Rookie

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    You will open your shoulders too early while Federer doesn't open up his shoulders until he strikes the ball, which will give him POWERRRRRRRRRRR

    btw what software is this?
     
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  3. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    While it can be very effective, it is not absolutely necessary to have your tossing parallel to the baseline. However, you should not toss with your arm perpendicular to the baseline (i.e., toward the target area). Tossing as Fed does will encourage better body coil on the serve -- so that you can more effectively use hip & torso rotation.

    My own preference is for my tossing arm to move upward at an angle that is about 30 to 45 degrees to the baseline. I would recommend not tossing with your arm more than 60 degrees, preferably toss at 45 degrees or less.

    The tossing arm should go vertical after release and remain there until you initiate your racket drop (behind your back). You should not remain in the coiled (or side on) position until contact. As the racket moves upward from the drop position, your hips & torso are starting to uncoil (prior to contact).
     
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  4. Puma

    Puma Rookie

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    SA, I have a question

    I from time to time experiment with my alignment. Sometimes I am more open or closed. Almost always I will go through a period where I seem to loose my toss. So, are you saying that my arm should be pointed somewhere near the net post? And if so, if I were to adjust my alignment more closed how do I know where to adjust my toss to?

    The reason I ask is as long as I am just practicing everything seems to do ok. I will practice getting a little more closed. During a doubles match my rythum will get off. At that time I seem to really have trouble with my toss, its like it aint where it is supposed to be. I might hit it good but it will go way wide sometimes. I was thinking, I really don'thave a good reference point as to where my arm should be in refernce tothe baseline. What do you think?
     
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  5. Mansewerz

    Mansewerz Legend

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    Cool software. I think having the arm parallel to the baseline is also better for kick serves, but if you want to hit a flat serve, it will be harder to throw the ball out in front.

    Also, since Federer tosses the ball in the same location every time, is that location above his head?
     
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  6. shubydoobydo

    shubydoobydo New User

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    Where can I find this software? I would love to compare my strokes.
     
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  7. Lotto

    Lotto Professional

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    Same here, would love to be able to do that, what software is it?
     
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  8. tennisdad65

    tennisdad65 Hall of Fame

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    Its best to maintain the same tossing direction. Sampras also had his arm parallel to the baseline for both his kick 2nd serve and his flat first. He just directed the toss inwards into the court for his flat first.

    The video below is of sampras's flat first. His tossing arm is parallel to baseline but the toss is well into the court.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DpptgXq5j4&feature=related
     
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  9. Il Mostro

    Il Mostro Banned

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    ^^^^^

    Super video. Thank you.
     
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  10. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    My tossing arm is about 45 degrees to the baseline into the court
     
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  11. larry10s

    larry10s Hall of Fame

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    ^^^^^ thats ok. idea is to get the shoulders alittle more closed than the hips in the beginning
     
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  12. crash1929

    crash1929 Hall of Fame

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    great post good question cool software!
     
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  13. Knightmace

    Knightmace Professional

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    so where can I ge tthis software?
     
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  14. larry10s

    larry10s Hall of Fame

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    this is a portion of an article in tennisone.com by hassan. the website is a great resource for knowledge and videos In the initial tossing position, the ball is placed on the finger tips (not the palm) for control of the toss. There are three tossing motions:

    Click photo: Andy Murray, like most pros, uses the Rear Leg tossing motion because it allows the body to rotate more thereby generating more power. The consequence to this is the more one uses the body the more challenging it is for a player to control the toss, body and racquet, so club players may take a simpler approach.

    Open Door
    Fish Hook
    Rear Leg

    With the open door tossing motion, the tossing arm is brought straight down and nearly parallel to the front thigh, then straight up. This motion resembles that of a door opening where the tossing arm is the door and it’s shoulder is the door hinge.

    The fish hook motion is when the tossing arm is brought down and back all the way to the middle of the body (belly button), then up. This motion resembles a fish hook or “J” motion.

    With the rear leg motion the tossing arm is brought down and back all the way to the rear leg before beginning the upward motion (like the pros).

    Which tossing motion is the best? Any of these three tossing motions are fine provided the toss creates rhythm and control on the serve. However, to assist a player on which toss to consider, several factors need to be evaluated. The factors a player needs to consider are:

    Simplicity of the movement - which motion is going to make the serve motion simple for the player? The Open door motion is simplest leading to the rear leg motion which is more difficult. The reason is because the tossing arm is moving a shorter distance during the open door motion making it simpler to control. The rear leg motion is the opposite whereby the tossing arm is moving a larger distance. This additional distance can make the service motion more complex.
    Accuracy of the toss - which motion is best going to help achieve an accurate toss? Based on my experience, all three actions can create an accurate toss. It is a matter of a player practicing and developing the particular motion.

    Rhythm generated by the movement - which motion is going to give the player more rhythm? A player can achieve proper rhythm with any of the three tossing actions. However, a concern I see among club players are the hitches and extraneous movements that are sometimes added. These extra movements can hamper rhythm.
    Body rotation allowed by the action - which motion is going to allow the body rotation desired by the player? The Open door motion has the least amount of body rotation and the rear leg motion the most rotation. Which motion should a player choose? It is up to the player as long as the motion chosen assists the player with an accurate toss, consistency, and trunk rotation.
     
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  15. larry10s

    larry10s Hall of Fame

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    hopefully ^^^^^^^^ helps .
     
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  16. drgnpride

    drgnpride Rookie

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    Actually he is not sideways at contact, his rotation starts before he strikes the ball see this slow mo video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcjZ5r_YHV0&feature=related
     
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  17. naylor

    naylor Semi-Pro

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    How much rotation before contact...

    ... should depend on the type of service and placement - I'd guess more for a wide slider to the forehand, less for a flat one down the T, even less for a flat one wide to the backhand from the ad court, the least for a kicker wide left from the ad court.

    Going back to the Sampras serve, it never ceases to amaze me how natural and good his serve was. At contact point, the ball is 4 / 5 feet inside the court, he hits it at maximum height/extension, and the height of the ball toss was no more than 18 / 20 inches above the contact point. Add (what looks like) very simple mechanics and great fluidity, and it all makes up for a great serve on which little can go wrong.
     
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  18. drgnpride

    drgnpride Rookie

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    well.... i think Sampras and Federer changed service placement based on where they hit the ball, not how much rotation they had prior to serve strike the thing all Sampras' opponents (and a lot of Feds) remarked was how they could never 'read' his serve because motion was always the same, he moved the ball around by hitting more on outside of ball to hit out wide on deuce court, inside ball to go down the middle on deuce court, and opposite for ad serves. I think key to placement and moving ball around is where you strike it.
     
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  19. TonyB

    TonyB Hall of Fame

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    People keep asking this guy about the software, yet he hasn't responded to this thread in more than a week.

    Funny.
     
    #19
  20. naylor

    naylor Semi-Pro

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    The key to their serve is that they toss the ball further into the court for different serves, ie on a plane at 90 degrees to the baseline, so from the receiver's side it looks the same as it's difficult to pick the depth of the toss inside the court, and the only read you get is from how much they have launched themselves at the ball - by which time the serve is already thundering over the net.

    At our level most of us toss on the same plane as the baseline, so a ball to the right is easily read as a slider and a ball to the left over the shoulder means a kicker is coming. If you turn that plane 90 degrees then the further forward you throw it the more your shoulders have opened around and the rackethead itself has come around, so the more slice you put on the ball; less forward, more neutral, is the flatter serve; least forward, the kicker. But then again, if I throw the ball further in for a slider but I do a Sampras-type serve jumping into the court, depending of where my body gets to in relation to the ball I can "cancel the slider" and instead hit a flat one, or actually exaggerate the slider to go for half-way up the service box and away in the trams.
     
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  21. ninobrn99

    ninobrn99 New User

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  22. webbeing

    webbeing Rookie

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    From Ganster33

    "...You will open your shoulders too early while Federer doesn't open up his shoulders until he strikes the ball, which will give him POWERRRRRRRRRRR..."


    What does "open shoulders" mean? Thanks!
     
    #22

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