Federer's new serve

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by zapvor, Sep 19, 2011.

  1. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    #1
  2. Sup2Dresq

    Sup2Dresq Hall of Fame

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    [​IMG]

    I figured I would post before HW does.
     
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  3. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    hahahah yea HW would say that
     
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  4. Chenx15

    Chenx15 Banned

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    is the serve actually going in? if it is then it's a good serve
     
    #4
  5. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    the last 2 went in
     
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  6. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    WOW, you got some flexible joints!
    Mine are stiff as my bones, and barely get to 80% of my motion. What did you do to get such flexibility? Do you eat jello?
     
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  7. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    so 57 views already and no suggestions? thats not like TT. where's all the 2.5 serve comments? not that it matters much but this was after working like 11hours at legg mason one day and me and my co worker went out to destress a little
     
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  8. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I guess one minute wasn't enough to read my post.
    You are Mr.Gumby. You can contort and flex in the wierdest positions, and do so on your serves. Just have a look yourself, and then look at serves of ANYone else.
     
    #8
  9. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    Sigh. Lee....I think by now most of this board knows you are full of BS, and have NO CLUE what you're talking about when it comes to biomechanics or serve motions. In any case, he's really not doing anything that bizarre here, nor is he displaying particularly unusual flexibility. He is loose, and he is turned a great deal, to the baseline (as if trying to imitate Pete Sampras). What you think is unusual flexibility is a result of his turning his back so far, and the fact that he has a bit of a quirky arm sway as he raises his hitting arm up. The reason he gets his arm back so far, is because he is letting it drop too low, as he gets into his "trophy" position.

    If there were TWO things I'd start with Zapvor, without revamping the entire motion, it's:

    1.your hitting arm is too low down in the, and as you go into, the trophy position. As a result, it's motion is not fluid, and not well linked to the rest of your body....your body goes up into the hit, and the too low arm, disjointedly comes along a bit late. Get the elbow up higher, and it won't lag behind as it is here a tad.

    2.acceleration. Partly due to #1....there just isn't much acceleration into the hit. Your arm barely moves faster than your torso when it unwinds into the hit. You can make a quantum leap in your serve if you learn to accelerate it into the hit better.

    All this can be done with very minor changes: get the elbow up higher, accelerate into, and through the ball.
     
    #9
  10. Caesar

    Caesar Banned

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    You can't judge a service action without seeing how the ball comes off the racquet and where it goes.

    Film it from behind.
     
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  11. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Wow, Data trying to make some positive comments after the slight!
    A new one for you!
    True, I never made any suggestions. I also did not ridicule Zapvor. I'd think if he just LOOKED at his service motion, he'd know the problems, without you telling him what they are.
    However, Zapvor, like you, also critizises many of my posts, and now he shows his service form.
    I'll let other's decide which is better.....mine (old guy, sprained left ankle, cannot even jog), or his...young guy with no physical disabilities.
     
    #11
  12. jfish

    jfish New User

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    Actually, that serve reminds me of Florian Mayer
     
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  13. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    The elbow position is way too low at the trophy phase of the serve. As LeeD indicates, there is also way too wrist and racket head action prior to the trophy. Simplify the motion (lose the extraneous motion) and work on the elbow position. You might even try an abbreviated takeback for while to get rid of the hitches and get the elbow in the proper position.
     
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  14. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    wow
    thanks for the input. you are right! my elbow is too low as i bring it around in the loop. and my acceleration towards the ball is weak at best. its funny because i kind of know this already but hearing it from someone else just makes it much more clear:)
     
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  15. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    was just trying to get ideas on my motion. from what i am learning as long as motion is good the ball is going to go where its supposed to. but yea i will get some from behind next time.
     
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  16. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    thanks for your input. the thing is actually i just revamped my serve this summer and i actually went from a semi abbreviated motion to this new more 'loopy' motion, if you will. my new coach facilitated this new serve. its quite amazing actually. i cant imagine going back now.
     
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  17. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    hahaha thanks. maybe if he was goofing off and serving at 30mph for fun
     
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  18. forthegame

    forthegame Hall of Fame

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    Was that Richard Williams with you?
     
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  19. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    NP. Sometimes people keep the elbow too low because they really have in their mind: "get the arm stretched WAY back on the takeback"...a low elbow feels like it helps because you can stretch your arm back further behind your chest when the elbow is low.

    But this isn't the way to go. IN fact, it's not even a good idea to think "stretch" the arm back (if you do)....this leads to tension....better to just be loose and let the arm go back as far it naturally can WITHOUT forcing/stretching it back.

    I really think without making major changes, if you get that elbow back higher, but relaxed, you'll automatically feel how much more easily it flows into the hit if your arm is lose. If you elbow is up high, and your arm is lose, your arm will automatically unwind nicely when you rotate your torso into the hit. Then just focus on losely letting your arm accelerate into the hit and past the hit into a full fast follow through. Stay lose, don't force it, don't TRY for "power". The first time you get this right, you'll see a huge jump in power....and you'll like it...LOL. Then you'll have a lot of fun learning to use that new power.
     
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  20. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    I'd work on smoothing out the loop action - removing the hitches - prior to the trophy phase. Many players have a lot of difficulty with this when attempting a more classic loop preparation on the serve. Seriously, an abbreviated or semi-abbreviated motion is often the easiest way to go if you cannot figure out how to execute the loop without the hitches.
     
    #20
  21. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    i was pretty relaxed in this clip. no trying to force anything just letting out some stress. i think its just a matter of getting my rythm in place so my elbow is higher in sync with the rest of my body.

    as for teh hitches, i dont think i have one. you are saying my hitch is during my loop? i dont see it....
     
    #21
  22. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    Yeah...ignore that. You don't have a hitch either in what most people call the loop (the drop behind the back...the "backscratch") or when you start to bring your racquet up to the trophy position (which is what it sounds like systemic was referring to). The only possible thing I would call a "hitch" is at the absolute beginning...you do a pretty sudden, sharp jerk back of the hitting arm BEFORE you actually start to raise the racquet (as I noted in my OP)....but I wouldn't worry too much about that right now. It's a bit weird and hitchy...but who cares? It's prior to the hit, and though it'd be great to smooth that out, it's the later stuff that really matters!

    One thing I'll say about the "backscratch" loop, is that, if you take a close look, you'll see your racquet doesn't drop very far down your back....the pros get the racquet WAY down there, dangling parallel to their torso (but off to the side...not actually scratching the back)....you don't, but that again is the low elbow. So even at that point of the swing, your elbow is still way too low. Same swing...you can do this even without swinging....just put your racquet in your hand at that same point...raise the elbow up...and you'll see that racquet drop way down behind your back....lota power their baby!!
     
    #22
  23. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    that was only 4 serves so maybe i will get longer vid. but yea i guess i should be more conscious of my elbow. my coach has taught me this new serve and it's made it so easy to be relaxed and natural about it. i just need to work on it some more. thanks for the input!
     
    #23
  24. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    you know what it looks way ugly how i do bring the racket back lol
     
    #24
  25. RoddickAce

    RoddickAce Hall of Fame

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    I think your racquet arm is too close to your body.

    Also, I'm not sure if this will make a large impact on your serve, but it seems like your weight is moving forward and your left arm is just starting to tuck in by the time your right arm reaches the racquet drop position.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InYd8IrFnkU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZbxKuLEP_o

    Both fed and roddick have relatively upright body positions at the racquet drop and the left arm is almost all tucked in.
     
    #25
  26. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Notice also you never achieve a trophy position. It's the static HAND that determines the trophy, not the rackethead, which can be continuously moving is some great serves. Your right hand never stops it's motion, so replicability is hard to achieve.
     
    #26
  27. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    i think part of me is trying to keep my left arm up longer to force my eyes to stay on the ball so i dont drop my head. i am not sure. good point though. i will have to think about that
     
    #27
  28. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    dude you dont know anything about tennis so stop posting suggestions. you even have met up with other board members. so you are just hiding from posting a video of you because you know you really cant play. please stay out of my thread
     
    #28
  29. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Dude, you saw my vid.
    I'm 62, have a sprained ankle in the vid, as you may have noticed.
    I am not getting on your chicken wing girly serve, until now.
    You serve like you have your joints arranged 30 degrees out of whack.
    Your hesistation is killing any chance of a rythum.
    Read all stuff that is wrong with your serve.
    The ONLY thing wrong with my serve is that I'm 62 years old.
    You have no excuse except for the fact you are a geek and should tell other's how to serve.
    Your motion is a screwed up, but not as bad as BenHadd's. So you do have a chance.
     
    #29
  30. fruitytennis1

    fruitytennis1 Professional

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    actually his advice is usually correct..
    Anyways...I would suggest going into a abbv. motion. This should stop you from the low elbow thing and the lack of the back-scratch position during the trophy pose.
     
    #30
  31. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    LeeD actually has a quite a bit of insight in his posts. He's just got a unique way of expressing it.
     
    #31
  32. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    lol no he's a troll

    and i have seen no evidence of his vid. he claims he's homeless yet posts like 100times a day and goes surfing all teh time, etc etc stories that never add up. i think he has mental issues.

    he's not insightful that's for sure.

    and i like how after asking him to leave he starts insulting me. LOL way to go man real mature there. what are you 10yrs old? yea, stay out of my thread

    edit-yea because any real 62yr old normal person would degenerate into berating someone immediately on the internet. get a life dude
     
    #32
  33. aimr75

    aimr75 Hall of Fame

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    #33
  34. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    thanks. he doesnt look 62 or homeless. i dont believe a word he posts
     
    #34
  35. yonexpurestorm

    yonexpurestorm Rookie

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    just a quick tip would be to not lift that back foot off the ground so much. you are losing all power from your right foot. i saw myself doing this on video and focused on a platform serve. this helped me stabalize while i coiled my body to release all my power in one motion.
     
    #35
  36. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    That is quite true. LeeD has displayed stunning ignorance about tennis biomechanics, as well as pros he has allegedly met! LOL.

    But nothing can stop him from posting his ignorant opinions. I would advise you ignore them, as most posters do. I certainly would not advise anyone to listen to any of his advice....he is truly terrible at tennis, and always was.
     
    #36
  37. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Think about it. You asking him to leave your sacred thread was pretty insulting itself. I don't really understand all this drama with you, LeeD and Datacipher. It's really rather annoying to make an attempt to provide some earnest feedback to someone asking for a critique and then seeing insults hurled back and forth.

    While I don't agree with everything that LeeD or DC have to say about tennis, I do see value in their unique perspectives and insights. If you do not see that value or insight, you don't need to dismiss it out of hand. I've been playing this sport for 38+ yrs and have been teaching for longer than you've been alive. Trust me when I say that there is insight in LeeD's posts, despite what DC has to say.
     
    #37
  38. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    I don't ask anyone to trust me when I say there is not. I have corrected him several times, though I largely ignore his vacuous and nonsenical posts. It does pain me to see a person pass himself off as an "expert" and give out erroneous advice to people asking sincerely for help, but there is nothing that can be done about that.

    So in the past, when I have bothered to correct LeeD, it's been on purely factual matters, errors of biomechanics, factual errors about past servers, etc. These were not subjective, and thus, verifiable.

    In terms of subjective "coaching", certainly LeeD has given out some correct generic advice. Anyone can do that. The problem is, it's not based on real insight so the tennis 101 tripe he shovels out is sometimes correct for that player...sometimes not. The fact is, he doesn't understand the biomechanics of the serve, nor does he have a good serve himself...as a result, beyond delusions, and textbook phrases....applied across the board (or to blatantly obvious cases...which I'm sure the majority of forum readers can also identify), his advice is at best vapid....at worst: harmful.

    One need only look at his initial feedback in this very thread to realize he has no idea what to look for, what to analyze, or what needs to be correct. He saw a motion he thought was weird...so he could only come up with the incorrect flexibility comments.

    His next attempt....was also completely erroneous (you don't achieve trophy position because your left hand keeps moving...notice that nobody bothered responding to that garbage...by the way LeeD....even if left hand moving WAS a problem here, MANY of the greatest servers in the game did not pause the left hand).

    Nevertheless, I simply suggest he be ignored.

    I am sorry Systemic, I do not know what valuable insights you refer to....we'd have to refer to specific examples to have meaningful discourse...nor am I interested in mudslinging with you, however, my guess is that if you've found "good" advice from Lee...it falls into the aforementioned "correct generic advice for somebody with an obvious problem and/or something LeeD threw in a paintbucket of advice to see what stuck".
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2011
    #38
  39. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Post #26, methinks, refers to the hitting hand, which for Zapvor, is NOT the left hand.
    For me, it's the left hand.
    Am I wrong again here?
     
    #39
  40. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Oh, born 2-15-49.
    Living in my van from 8-06 thru 12-10.
     
    #40
  41. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    It's interesting. I think the value of any advice on this board purely depends on the level of the player asking it. In some cases, "tennis 101 tripe" (as you call it) is exactly what is needed. Everyone on this board isn't some junior or college player aspiring to get from 5.0/5.5 to 6.0+.

    Some of us are 3.5s trying to get to 4.0. Some of us are 3.0s trying to get to 3.5. Some of us are barely 3.0. We really don't need a bunch of fancy, nuanced advice. What might appear to be tripe tennis-101 might be breakthrough advice for others.

    What I like about this board is that I see a lot of different perspectives on how to play the game. I contribute my own perspectives. But I get to choose what I believe and don't believe.

    After reading books like "Inner Tennis", I'm pretty convinced that there isn't any one way to play the game correctly. In fact, I'd say it is quite the opposite. That everyone has to find the way to play this game that works best for THEM.
     
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  42. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    oh yea. i dont listen to anythng he says. its not even about tennis sometimes. hes just so full of himself and acts as if he's so helpful when he is not at all
     
    #42
  43. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    i am not saying i wasnt insulting. but this is my thread and i wish him not to bring himself in here and ruin it. lets leave datacipher out of this. he's just putting in his 2 cents about other people's posts. i personally want nothing to do with Lee. i can dismiss whatever i like. this is a forum. i know people that's been in tennis for over 30years and cant hit down the middle.
     
    #43
  44. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    exactly. his insights??? what insights? i can go on here and tell everyone to keep their eye on the ball, make sure to follow through. oh yea i am so insightful now!!!!
     
    #44
  45. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    thanks for your input. i do agree we have to be very careful on what advice to take here. even though it is just tennis we do take it very serious here (i do anyways) so whatever advice is being offered has to be considered carefully. obviously everyone has their own style of play and no 2 people hit the ball the same way, but there is definitely a right and wrong with tennis. you cant serve with a eastern grip, for example.
    i posted mostly to see where i have come since my last serving vid, and wanted to see what insights better players may have to say
     
    #45
  46. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    Oh for the love of Pete Sampras!!! UNREAL. So....


    You want him to have a static racquet hand??? OH man...please nobody listen to this garbage!!!

    1.no, the racquet head cannot continue moving without the hand moving, the hand is the one bodypart in direct attachment to the racquet. The only way this notion can even be interpreted as making any sense is when both the racquet head and hand (again, the go together) are static relative to some larger body part eg. the torso), but the torso is moving.

    2.no, this is not desirable. From the standpoint of biomechanical efficiency, it's very undesirable. The vast majority of great servers did not do this....most had a continuous movement of their hands/racquet, but I am actually not a continuous movement ****. Since the majority of racquet head speed comes after the "trophy" position, if it's more natural for the player, and they don't wish to adjust it (and/or there is no glaring reason to), I have no problem with a pause. (again though, it's not ideal, and most great servers didn't do that, though the speed of their continuous movement has varied greatly!)
     
    #46
  47. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    data dont mind him. just leave the poor guy alone.
     
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  48. vincent_tennis

    vincent_tennis Professional

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  49. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    thats right. so what do you think? imporved from my last video?
     
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  50. adamX012

    adamX012 Rookie

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