Finding my strokes after 20 years. Stroke video inside

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Greg G, Jul 1, 2012.

  1. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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  2. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    doesn't count because you know where the ball is going.

    well they look a little more in front maybe but still not enough. most of them are like this if you freeze the contact
    [​IMG]

    you can tell there's no weight transfer. You are reaching for it, leaning back, and arming it. and this is a cross court shot. and you can see the balance is a little off. all those things eat away the power and spin.
     
  3. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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  4. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Nothing like a kick in the nuts to keep me motivated! ;)

    Here's a good video of Fed showing both footwork and forward contact...will work on the crossover step.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_36O-nJUfQ

    BTW- Rick Macci has a nice new vid up on TP.net regarding the ATP forehand. Good stuff. Like he made it for me haha.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2013
  5. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Footage of me working on early contact:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWP4A7R5Qhw

    OK some still sequences:

    Forehand:

    Still with the PTD issue...don't like 8-11 but the 1st part of the backswing looks good so some progress ;)
    [​IMG]

    Runaround footwork:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2013
  6. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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  7. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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  8. thecode

    thecode Banned

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    I don't think you are far off at all. It just looks like you hit the ball a little out to your side, which makes you look more like reaching with that mostly straight arm forhand. If you let the racket lay back more, you can take it farther in front of the plane of your body. With that more out front contact point, you won't have to turn your head so much or look like you are reaching out to your side as much. You will likely be able to direct and place your shots better too.
     
  9. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Worked on making contact more in front today, I think it's better. Lower body still not contributing to the kinetic chain optimally, hip opens up. I was hitting against a lefty for the first time in years..I realized the spin was bringing some balls into my body on the forehand side! Threw me off for a while.

    Front view:
    http://youtu.be/JE2pjESq-u0

    Rear/Side View:
    http://youtu.be/cbVKDygyA7o

    Working on the BH slice, trying to knife it. Works well shoulder height, any lower I tend to get it floaty.
    http://youtu.be/sex6xj07HbM

    Tropical summer is here! Jeez I was so drained after just 4 minutes. Like playing in a sauna...

    On the string front, I tried Black Widow 17 in a hybrid with N.Vy 16 @50/50. More plush compared to full bed BW, and also softer than Tour Bite/N.Vy. Similar amount of spin, but it felt less crisp hitting with it. Would N.Vy 17 give a crisper feel?
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
  10. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Today's hit:

    Practicing the 4 ball patterns again. Working on hitting more in front and projecting the energy through the shoulder... I realized what Cheetah meant by me leaning back on the forehand. Once again, tropical summer drained my legs--it's the humidity, it's like I suddenly lost 40% of my stamina. Most of the errors come from the feet not being in the right position... :(

    My practice balls are getting a bit flat too, need to replace them soon.

    http://youtu.be/N89eExmVn64

    http://youtu.be/xWzVTnJ4Ph8

    Still sequence, hope the contact looks better.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  11. Cheetah

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    further in front looks a little better.
    you've changed something though. hmm... i gotta look at it
    a few more times. busy atm.. will check in later.
     
  12. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Didn't you used to have more of a bent arm structure?

    I think you are straightening your arm too early and it has decreased your rhs.
    You should have your hand / elbow closer to your body and bent/relaxed before the forward swing. then as you rotate and swing the arm can straighten.

    The way you have it now gives no breathing room for ssc or natural pronation etc and is making your rhs pretty slow. It looks 'forced'.

    Look at this fed vid. See how his hand is not that far away from his body at the end of the takeback? He's just lowering his hand as Heath says. His arm looks pretty loose and in a natural looking position there. Your arm at the moment is already straight and far away from the body.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmtkSzhB8GI&t=17s
     
  13. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Yes, the thing that stood out to me when I got home and viewed the video was the slow rotation, which I guess translated to a slower RHS.

    Would you say "the Sharapova" issue is OK now? I think fixing the PTD ended up with my having a straighter arm than before...which I thought was the point? But point well taken about the early straightening, i think I can fix that.

    Furthest point back in the takeback should be still #5? Perhaps with a bit more left arm stretch..will adjust the early straightening. Maybe I misinterpreted the Macci video. :p
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  14. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Nice stroking as usual Greg. Inside in and inside out forehands. Enjoying the vids. I like the trajectory on the shots. Looks like you could sustain long rallies. Enjoyed the vids from 3-16 also. Both backhand and forehand look real solid. I like the back view the best ... at least for casual viewing. But I suppose the other views are good (even necessary) for the more knowledgeable viewers with suggestions to have access to.
     
  15. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Thanks Tom! First tournament in a decade coming up in a couple of weeks, so I'm working on the patterns and building up shot tolerance. Just a small club tournament, to get my feet wet and see what happens when the you know what hits the fan.
     
  16. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    image 5 looks ok. but after that point is where you lose it.
    After image 5 you should lower the hand. straight down into ptd. when you do that the hand will come closer to the body and the elbow will still be bent. Then when you rotate and point the butt at the ball you can straighten the arm. Currently after image 5 your arm stays out there and you end up in image 9.

    It's easy when you know how to do it. If i were there i could show you in 20 secs but it's hard to describe. It doesn't have anything to do with flexibility or strength or speed. It's just putting the racquet in the right place and rotating while moving the arm very slightly and it will all happen. It doesn't hurt, it doesn't feel weird or stressful. If done properly it looks correct and works better.

    You want to avoid image 9. That's, excuse me but, totally wrong.

    the hand definitely has to come closer to the body before forward swing.

    Currently you are reaching out for the ball. You don't want to reach for it. you want the arm to naturally fly out towards the ball. Like in the lock and roll vids when he twirls the chinese drum.
    in the beginning the strings are close to the body of the drum. then when he rotates the drum the strings fly out. it's the same thing. exactly.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbASHP73aIc&t=46s
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  17. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    OK, going to work on it in a couple hours. Hope it stays in my head :)

    Don't worry, at some point I'll make it down to San Diego ;)
     
  18. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    Mind if I chime in?
    Great progress from day one, Greg, quite impressive!

    Have you ever seen the Lock n' Roll video on the forehand? The guy demo'ed a very simple drill or exercise to get the feel for a completely loose arm and letting the torso swing the racquet.

    What you can do is start your racquet from just above the PTD position, and let the racquet drop to its lowest point. Almost instantly, start turning your hips and shoulders. You should feel that the racquet lags considerably simply due to inertia, and if you let your racquet follow, you'll see that your palm wants to open up by itself.

    The point is, the racquet shouldn't be pulled across after you hit the ball (it looks like you're forcing contact & follow through), not unless you have more basic things solidified. The swing up to and through contact should come as a result of good prep, loose arm, and good use/timing of hip and shoulder rotation (and of course the legs).
     
  19. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Thanks psv255! The more the merrier! :)

    I have seen the video. I was actually loosening up that way prior to hitting yesterday. It's a constant struggle to fight old habits once I'm on court. Took quite a bit of time to get rid of the cocked wrist and presupinated forearm (at least I hope it's gone). This last bit (takeback to PTD) has proven quite difficult for me, but am not giving up on it yet! :)
     
  20. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    OK! Today's hit focused on regaining the rotation and RHS with a shortened takeback. The first thing I noted was that my practice balls are way too soft now, I was mistiming the fresh balls I used today. The swinging was much more loose today...I hadn't realized how or when I lost that. The ball had more heaviness to it. Perhaps I just needed to hit with purpose. Anyway, I do hope it comes through on the videos.

    Side view:
    http://youtu.be/yIdtr9xxkvw

    Front view (pardon the shriek at the end, I thought the camera would be hit):
    http://youtu.be/2QKizI_xnM4

    Back view:
    http://youtu.be/KfmKEeTy0i8

    Slow motion front view (this one's for you Cheetah) :)
    http://youtu.be/1aPPkrAnoG8

    Forehand (contact needs more in front as usual)...takeback better? Is the hand still too far away in #10?
    [​IMG]

    Backhand still OK despite the neglect..:)
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
  21. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Nice touch with the Fed music. :)

    Ok.. HIT THE BALL MORE OUT IN FRONT ALREADY!! :evil:
     
  22. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Will do, or try at least. Shall I assume the takeback is short enough already?

    Adding front view still sequence from yesterday, for reference:
    [​IMG]

    On the string front-- I ended up back with full bed Black Widow! BW/N.Vy hybrid was only marginally more comfy compared to full bed, but I was hitting quite a few shots long...maybe this is why my swing speed decreased. And the string bed felt a bit too mushy for me. With the full bed, I was swinging away again.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
  23. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    looks ok but how is the racquet getting from frame 10 to 11? that's the important part. can you describe what's happening there?
     
  24. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Well like you said, from the unit turn I drop the racquet, keeping it all loose. Then I initiate the forward swing with the hip/shoulder turn, and let the racquet flip.

    At least that's what I hope is happening...

    Here's a sequence of that segment (8-13 in the previous sequence):
    [​IMG]

    ps. is the left arm tucking in too soon?
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
  25. Cheetah

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    ok. nvm. i figured it out. i can see in image 10 the direction it's going. :(

    You're getting the wrong kind of movement there. You're getting this windshield wiper type of effect there. That's not what you want. With that effect your hand is basically in the same location and you are turning the wrist and the racquet moves in a windshield wiper angle. you want the hand to go TO THE RIGHT and FORWARD. Don't manipulate the racquet.

    In that last sequence you just posted you can see the wiper effect you are doing in frames 4 through 10. Your hand is basically in the same location all through those frames and you are manually turning the wrist over. Doing it this way doesn't give you wrist extension. It gives you only a forced ulnar deviation movement.

    There has to be this 'inside out' type of movement of the hand.
    You should push the hand OUT to the right then rotate. Doing it that way gives you the ssc and it also will keep your hitting structure intact. Hard to explain.

    look at kohlschreiber vid.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9cR_S7jakA

    see how his hand goes OUT TO THE RIGHT first? rog, fed, everybody else also, do this but you can see it easily here i think. the hand goes OUT TO THE RIGHT, then the hitting structure is established at that point. then you rotate that structure and everything will be lined up right behind the ball allowing you to go through it and then use pronation wrist manipulation etc at the last moment for extra fun stuff.

    try not to move the hand/racquet butt to the ball from directly behind the ball. move the hand/butt from close to the body, out to the right of the body (which is now directly behind the ball) and then rotate. if that makes sense.

    here's tsonga going out to the right first http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=9dihL0_w6IM

    try this. put the racquet all the way face down in ptd position with the heading pointing at 5 oclock. total ptd. body coiled and all that. butt of the racquet should be pointing to your hip.
    hand is close to the body/hip.
    loose everything.
    now without moving anything but your hand try to shine the butt at the side fence at about 4 oclock. push your hand away from the body going straight towards the side fence. don't raise or lower the arm at all, just push it out. keep it at the same height above the ground. just try to point the butt at 4 oclock while maintaining face down ptd.
    you won't be able to actually point it at 4. what will happen is the butt will end up pointing at 3 oclock. that's what you want.
    THEN rotate the body.
    try that. you should see/feel a difference than your windshield wiper takeback.
     
  26. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    I get it up to this part.


    I lost the frame of reference here. 12:00 is the net right? and I am turned facing 3:00 with the racquet pointing to 5. What do you mean shine the butt towards the side fence at 4:00? Hope you can clarify this. Did you mean 8:00?

    In any case, I actually had a good hit today (prior to reading your last post), working only on keeping it loose and moving the contact earlier. Got more easy power with the contact point moved forward, and the ball seemed to have more action on it.

    The video is grainy because the court was dark and I cropped the picture.

    http://youtu.be/e5U36gCgCQ4
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
  27. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    yes. that's correct
     
  28. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Sorry bear with me...if I point the butt to 4:00, the racquet head will hit my chest...? Did you mean 8:00?
     
  29. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    4. how will it hit your chest?
     
  30. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Like this?

    Am facing 3:00, and I point the butt to 4??

    [​IMG]

    Unless you mean my chest is facing 12, then that would make sense to me. Sorry for the confusion, is that it?

    Also took pics of the initial movement:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
  31. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    The butt in that last set is pointed at 11
     
  32. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Yeah sorry, it was hard swinging while holding a camera in the left hand :p
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
  33. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Oh nuts, I figured it out LOL. Enjoy the pic before I take it down haha :)

    Anyway, how did today's vid look? Contact further in front.

    http://youtu.be/e5U36gCgCQ4
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
  34. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    if you figured it out where's the pic?

    contact still late. i think you changed something lately.
     
  35. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Sorry, stepped out for a while.

    Here's a video:
    http://youtu.be/sD17aVCEfrY

    Here's a still sequence of a shadow swing:
    [​IMG]

    Am I opening up too early? Can you really point the butt to 3 (the side fence)? Or is the 3:00 relative to my shoulder line?

    The only thing I changed was emphasizing the PTD...perhaps the hand position moved further away from my hip. Or the loss of the Sharapova changed the hitting structure somewhere?

    Edit: Thinking about it and shadowing it some more, I believe that is the case. With the loss of the Sharapova, the hand is now 6-8 inches further away from the hip, and consequently the initial swing doesn't go outward. Will see if I can correct it, thanks for taking the time to analyze it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
  36. Cheetah

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    yes you can point to 3 on the fence. You are bending the wrist too much with ulnar deviation. for now remove the ulnar deviation and point the butt / bend the wrist with only wrist extension.

    it looks good up to image 7. then in image 8 you become disconnected and you arm and elbow are lagging behind your torso which is your 'opening earlier' scenario. You don't want arm lag. the racquet moves with the torso like i showed you earlier. you want to lead with the elbow. upper arm moves with the torso. like dumzu says "human racquet".

    in frame 10 your swing should be finished already and wrapped around the other side of your body. this is why your rhs is slow now and you have no power. you're not hitting with the body.

    the hitting structure looks good in image 9 but you should be making contact with that exact structure here. but your arm is way back still. it should be making contact right here with the racquet way out in front of the body like it is somewhere between 11 and 12.

    in #1 your hand is in line with / even with your waist line. in image 8 your chest is facing the camera / net almost but your hand is still all the way back where it was in #1. it's disconnected. it has to move with the body.
    This is why i said yesterday to get the feel do the butt pointing with the arm only and THEN rotate.

    so in other words, your timing is off.

    watch fed's upper arm move with the torso the entire time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SumLM6RoIkg
     
  37. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Got it! Thanks for making it crystal clear, to drive it through my thick skull! Shadowing it now (at 2:45 am), it feels like a much more compact movement. Will shadow some more and post the results.

    Great choice of fed video to complement the explanation. Almost felt like a lightbulb moment :)
     
  38. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    OK here we go. First try at adjusting the swing.

    [​IMG]

    video: http://youtu.be/ylDTmTqxhn8

    [​IMG]

    video: http://youtu.be/CxIwHkuPVrY

    Better, but I think there's still a bit of the disconnect. Hitting structure looks better at contact. Will continue shadowing it, but do tell me if there's anythihng to improve before I shadow the wrong thing. Does it look like I'm letting the Sharapova thing back in, especially in the side view...?
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
  39. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    What's the "Sharapova thing"? I'm curious because I do something that I call the "Steffi Graf thing" (but I've seen other pro players do it too). It might actually be akin to what you call the Sharapova thing, but I don't know as I can't stand watching videos of her playing. Too much screaming. Very annoying.
     
  40. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Hi Tom!

    The long explanation:

    http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2012/05/roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part-6.html

    Cheetah called it the Sharapova when I did this, a few months ago (upper right pic):
    [​IMG]

    Note the cocked back wrist and lack of any pat the dog position. This is typically associated with the "WTA forehand." I have since tried my best to not **** the wrist and presupinate, but apparently it cause this disconnect between the arm/hitting structure and the body.
     
  41. Cheetah

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    looks a little better. not there yet. one big issue that's still preventing the action.

    in the video starting @3 secs to 5 or 6 secs.., tell me what's going on there with the wrist.
    how would you describe that?
     
  42. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    The side view video?

    Yes, I am actively pointing the butt with the wrist...making sure I got the right hitting structure before the swing. presupinating too.

    Was concentrated on connecting the arm to the shoulder and maintaining the hitting structure. The SSC at the transition will need work, or rather less work and more relaxation. That it?

    Uploading the real time shadow swinging.

    http://youtu.be/KZIky7uo1zU
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
  43. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    ok. yea. actively.
    so now u are convinced the wrist can do that motion correct?
     
  44. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Yup! I was too focused on totally eradicating the Sharapova that I went with too much ulnar deviation and resisted any sort of supination. So aside from the part where the wrist actively moves, the form looks acceptable? Cos I'm gonna start shadowing this soon.
     
  45. Cheetah

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    idk. try it w/o actively manipulating the wrist and video it
     
  46. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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  47. Cheetah

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    better. you have a slowmo of that?
     
  48. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Uploading video:
    http://youtu.be/re9i66gqmrs

    http://youtu.be/8bIHEIcjW-I

    Still sequence:
    [​IMG]

    A bit of the disconnect creeping back in when super relaxed, I think. Gotta work on keeping it connected while relaxing the forearm (and not upper arm). I wonder if part of the disconnect is too much external shoulder rotation from a too-relaxed shoulder (see #8 below)?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
  49. Cheetah

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    disconnected.
    rotating too early. try to wait until hand is lower and more in ptd position before you rotate the torso. also you are taking the racquet a little too far back and it becomes disconnected. it can't catch up to the rotating torso unless you arm it because it has to come from far back. it has to move as a unit.

    your racquet is pointing at like 5:30 in ptd. should point more towards 4:30 and 5 like in the fed vid.

    look at murray here. he doesn't rotate until racquet is in ptd
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H_kb2abbvc&t=26s
     
  50. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Ok. Will take it slow and do it in small progressions.
     

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