Finding my strokes after 20 years. Stroke video inside

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Greg G, Jul 1, 2012.

  1. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    If your RHS were 60 MPH, the racket would move 35" between frames at 30 fps. Probably with the motion blur and low frame rate that is not enough for an accurate trajectory. ?

    Go to higher frame rates and better outdoor lighting for smaller motion blur. The difference between indoor artificial light levels and outdoor direct sunlight is about 100X. Always double check the tracker.

    ( BTW, you can often get an idea of the shutter speed by comparing the distance a ball travels between frames to the length of the motion blur of the ball (take into account the ball size). For example, if a ball travels 60" between frames and the blur of the ball is 30" then the shutter speed is about 50% of the time between frames. For 240 fps, the time between frame is 1/240 sec and the shutter speed in that case would be 1/480 sec. )
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2013
  2. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    There is something wrong with ball’s speed!? :confused:

    [​IMG]
     
  3. RetroSpin

    RetroSpin Hall of Fame

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    Agreed.

    FH is old school, fixed wrist. BH might lack a little pace but looks reliable. Movement will be key to match success.
     
  4. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    you have something against patting dogs?
     
  5. rkelley

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    Retro, do you realize that LeeD's post that you're replying to is from July 2012? A lots happened with Greg's stroke since then.
     
  6. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Well he got the movement part right :p

    Toly & chas, I'm gonna make a separate thread where we can talk about ball speed measurements. This last one I know was gonna be off because of the video quality, just use it to compare relative speeds (particularly hand vs racquet head speed, and not take them as absolute values. The ball was a blur, so I guesstimated the spot to track (the middle of the blur). Plus I can't say for sure what frame rate the camera used. The one on page 34 is a better sample @ 120 fps ;)

    Here's a link to the spinoff thread:
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=479031
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2013
  7. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    OK started working on footwork today. I hate it! :)

    Seriously though, it is hard work. Started off with a light warmup, the proceeded to hand fed drills, inside out forehands forward and back. It has 3 phases -low feeds, high feeds, drive volleys. This is supposed to help both footwork and racquet head speed. It is a killer drill!

    http://youtu.be/xW0C4NLqSGU

    Followed it up with an X-drill. Didn't last very long because the previous drill killed me. Watch me rapidly lose speed. Oh well, I guess I gotta work up to it...

    http://youtu.be/L45y2cHOyrw

    Also worked a bit on shortening the backswing for return of serve. Chas is gonna scold me for the camera placement :)

    http://youtu.be/4r6KBD6nygY

    Did it pay off? Well, I rested for 30 minutes then moved to the indoor courts (I was melting outside). I felt a bit lighter on court- the footwork seemed to have improved, and surprisingly I was getting more easy power off the forehand!

    http://youtu.be/y_w9QHkSKxs

    Played a set afterwards, here are some points. Legs were pretty wasted by then, but I liked the shape of the rally ball I was hitting.

    http://youtu.be/JP_NWwnl7Dw

    Footwork view:
    http://youtu.be/nk8jFA8e_z8

    Any glaring errors, now's the time to point them out. Yes Cheetah I still have the left foot opening it up, but it's not as frequent now, more when I'm moving to the left.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  8. janm

    janm Rookie

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    Greg, how did you generate the swingpath tracing with speeds?

    Any special software?

    Like the look of your swing very much.

    thanks

    EDIT found out from ealier pages its Kinovea
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  9. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Thanks janm. Been a lot of work getting to this point, but it's really starting to pay off.

    Yes it's Kinovea, great piece of software. And it's free! :)
     
  10. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Added a video of the swing path from the reverse view:
    http://youtu.be/5F1MxkV48vI

    Oh, and let me state for the record that this is probably the worst case scenario for getting accurate speeds (nothing is on the same plane as the camera face), so just take them with a grain of salt..

    [​IMG]

    Is this the wrong place to put the left foot (encircled)? Should it be more forward?
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  11. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    And here's the plane of the windshield wiper motion :)

    [​IMG]
     
  12. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    At contact you tilt your body to the right. It should be vertical or tilted to the left, then you could provide near straight line racquet swing path around impact, that improve reliability, and increase RHS.

    Don’t let your body blocking arm forward swing, move it away to the left.:)

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  14. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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  15. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    I look at it more as leaning toward the target. Will go through the footage again to see.
     
  16. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    Federer jumps to the left wrt outgoing ball direction. :shock:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2013
  17. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    Last edited: Oct 6, 2013
  18. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Um...I can't see anything wrong, other than me needing to lose 10 lbs :D

    The values will read low after contact, as the direction of the swing goes away from the camera. The decrease in speed after contact, I attribute to the transfer of energy to the ball which accelerates at contact. The "jaggies" or small variations in speed in the backswing can be attributed to inaccuracy of the tracking.
     
  19. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Golfer's Elbow Issues on the Forehand

    You usually wear an elbow brace. In your other thread on a new brace, you said that you have Golfer's Elbow.

    GE injury is often said to involve the forehand and serve. I have not found references that explain what motions are most likely to cause the injury. If anyone has any references detailing causes please reply. Separate thread?

    I’m sure much more is known or suspected about GE and its causes. I have found a little scattered information on Golfer's Elbow but hardly enough to understand the cause.

    (Google the terms.)

    1. Wrist Flexors & Forearm Pronators. In surgeries to correct Golfer’s Elbow, the pronator teres and flexor carpi radialis muscle tendon attachments are most often damaged. These muscles pronate the forearm and flex the wrist. Other muscle tendons also attach at the GE injury location (medial epicondyle) and have also been involved in GE. ?
    2. End of Range of Motion for Forearm Pronators & Wrist Flexors. I don’t know if damage is more likely when the muscle -tendon is stretched to near the end of its range of motion, maybe? The motions that stretch these muscle-tendons are:
    a) pronator teres - maximum forearm supination stretches the pronator teres muscle-tendon to the end of its range of motion.
    b) flexor carpi radialis – maximum wrist extension stretches this muscle-tendon to the end of its range of motion. See conditioning stretches for forearm flexors.
    c) other muscles-tendons that attach at the GE location may also be involved.

    3. Muscle Shortening Velocity Effects. Simplified and maybe incorrect & misleading - The faster a muscle shortens the less force it is able to develop. However, the faster a muscle lengthens the more force it is able to develop. In some cases the strong forces involved in muscle extension contribute to tearing injuries (finding reference in Knudson book …) I guess that these injuries may not occur just at the end of the range of motion. ?

    The Toly picture of the Berdych forehand below shows rapid stretching of the flexor carpi radialis by wrist extension when his body turns, his shoulder horizontally adducts and his racket lags. I don’t know what forehand motions might cause Golfer’s Elbow but that motion appears to rapidly stretch the flexor carpi radialis.

    [​IMG]

    Toly’s last picture of your stroke shows less wrist extension. You should be careful experimenting especially with that part of the stroke.
    [​IMG]

    You could do close-up high speed videos to better see your wrist.

    (I gave myself an acute GE injury in August and stopped playing. When I start back I’d like to understand better what motions are most stressful to the GE injury. )
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2013
  20. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    I got the GE early on, when first restarted playing. Probably hadn't built up the forearm muscles yet. I pulled out a 20 year old r-27 and hit with it. Then I tried holding it only with pressure on the last 2 fingers. That's when I felt it. It's recovered to the point where I could play without the brace- this new sleeve just helps keep it warm and dampens some vibrations.

    Serves irritate the elbow more than the forehand, at least for me. You got all that from toly's picture??
     
  21. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Do you think that you may be avoiding some motions such as very rapid or maximum wrist extension that might aggravate GE pain? That's probably a good thing with an injury. ?
     
  22. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    No, not consciously. Arm feels pretty good now...
     
  23. RetroSpin

    RetroSpin Hall of Fame

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    That's funny, no , obviously I didn't notice how much had happened in this thread.

    I liked the newer Fh videos better. It is a nice compact stroke. Hard to tell from the vids, but it looks like his wrist is neutral at contact instead of being extended, ie laid back. Obviously, you can play very well doing that, but the top ATP FH's all have a laid back contact position.
     
  24. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    The amount of wrist extension varies, but in general the wrist is trying to go to neutral because of the stretch-shortening cycle. It'll be more laid back in general hitting inside out as opposed to crosscourt.
     
  25. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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  26. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    Hey Greg G,
    You gave me very good idea about racquet speed representation, so I couldn’t resist. Btw, it’s very easy to make videos from composite Photoshop pictures.
    I also tried to fight with Kinovea tracking path, but failed miserably. :(
     
  27. jmnk

    jmnk Professional

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    ok, I must say that this is fairly lame by Toly. I mean not to give --any-- credits to Greg for what he did, geez.

    In fact Tony's note reads "I created this video with the YouTube Video Editor" which I suppose is technically correct. It's just mighty misleading.
     
  28. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    The title of this video is “Forehand Racquet & Hand Speed Analysis Greg G video” and in post 717 I made reference to it. So, what else I should do.
    Concerning note "I created this video with the YouTube Video Editor", YouTube made the note automatically because I used youtube.com/editor to trim and combine videos. I can do nothing about that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2013
  29. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    No worries everyone! Toly is welcome to tolify my videos anytime. But thanks for the thought, jmnk :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2013
  30. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Rainy season sucks.. Finally got some court time, to do some work.

    Second time out with the racquet head speed and footwork (adjustment step drills). Trying not to bend over. Inside out for the deep ones, inside in for the short ones. Gassed out again...

    http://youtu.be/GAvxplRMx-0

    I really like this drill. The rapid feed just makes you remove any excess movement, and makes you find the power from the kinetic chain. Afterwards, you feel like there's so much time to prepare. Didn't have anything left in the tank to do x-drills. Just did some hitting to see if there was any improvement...

    Some inside out forehands, focusing on footwork and staying upright:
    http://youtu.be/gEl0n-GEk2Y

    Some crosscourt forehands:
    http://youtu.be/V38Bwvkx5m4

    I need to speed up the footwork to get there before the ball bounces, I often get there just in time. Getting better though...
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013
  31. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Just some light drills...early days in the footwork improvement work, so I don't expect huge strides to occur overnight.

    http://youtu.be/VfZFxe4CWsc

    Will add some variation/ randomness to the drills once I build up the stamina. Once/twice a week is not good for maintaining endurance :(
     
  32. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Not getting quite as much court time as I'd like, and the stamina is going down >.<

    Anyway, was trying to focus on the footwork and hitting from a stable base. Still needs work, would appreciate some input here. Gotta improve my dance steps, particularly the final steps which set the hitting base...my left foot position is the main suspect.

    Forward movement to the ball not as good as the lateral, and that ain't saying much :p

    Front/Side view:
    http://youtu.be/a_Bvkf_dwwM

    Rear view:
    http://youtu.be/purZAGRVRSo

    Some point play:
    http://youtu.be/e1j65m3Lsjw
     
  33. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    First off, I think you're doing better with getting more height over the net on your rally ball though you sometimes skim the net too much. As for your movement, the first thing that comes to my mind is, "This guy's trying his butt off to move his feet, but there's no connection between his footwork and the rhythm of the point." In other words, you're going through the motions, but you're not appreciating the real point of footwork, which is to get you to the right place at the right time to hit the ball. Watch this video of Noah Rubin playing some points (he's a darn good player). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BQ6gvO_y8c I'm picking him because the camera angle's good, and he's kind of slender, so he can't win off sheer power. First off, he clears the net by a lot unless he knows he's in position to flatten the ball out somewhat, and secondly, the rhythm of his feet matches the rhythm of the ball. Try to feel that in your own play.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2013
  34. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    i can see the effects of the reduced court time. don't worry about it.

    ok... you're starting to use the arm too much for power. to be more specific, the small muscles.

    use your shoulder to power the racquet. (after the legs and hip of course which seem a little out of whach now because of the reduced court time)

    next time you hit think about using your right shoulder to pull the racquet forward through the ball. try not to use the forearm and bicep and elbow etc etc to move the racquet forward. engage the right shoulder and let it do the work. Try that for about a dozen swings and you will notice some things.

    just try it and report back here.
     
  35. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Hmmm. OK, I think I get what you mean. Probably an effect of too much shadow swinging at home without a racquet! :p
     
  36. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Oh, I have been messing around with a buggy whip thing on wide/low balls, maybe that's it...?
     
  37. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Anyway, managed to get on court again...just after a heavy brunch (bad move apparently). :D

    Forehand footage:
    http://youtu.be/4WvPQbSuoDI

    Felt a bit better, with the hitting structure more intact, if that is a good description. Working on using the right shoulder, and hitting out in front...looks good, but I'm sure Cheetah will spot something :)

    I felt I could use a little more shortening of the backswing, so I went to the hand fed drills. The usual 3 sets- low balls, medium-high balls, and drive volleys.

    http://youtu.be/WRW-6GvBJPE

    Am really disliking that last step of the left leg, I feel it throws off the timing and destabilizes the base. A lot of unnecessary movement, I think. To get an idea of how a stable base looks like, I did the drill on the backhand side for the first time...

    http://youtu.be/hYQU1aNXWR8

    Much more stable off that wing (nothing new).

    Forehands after the drills.

    http://youtu.be/3Ri4XmAKedg

    Slightly shorter swing, but I was pooped. Not turning well. Ah well, serves me right for stuffing myself at brunch. Time to diet. :)
     
  38. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    nice. back on track. striking better.

    i like the contact point in the 2nd vid better than 1st vid.
    your footwork on bh is good. light, adjustment steps and you maintain balance throughout the shot no problem.

    swing path was good in 2nd vid. maintaining structure well.

    You have to work on your off hand on your fh. You can really see it in the last vid. maybe because you were tired but the left hand is dropping down to your hip/side early during the forward swing instead of a more pronounced pull across the body maintaining tension to open up the chest and it throws your balance off.
     
  39. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Whew! That's a relief!

    Really wasn't supposed to hit today, but your comment had me worried :???:

    I was getting caught hitting a bit late earlier, usually happens when I forget to shorten the backswing. I have to think ultrashort backswing (and even then it's not that short).

    I think you nailed it with the left arm comment, I was trying to figure out why something still felt off with the balance, and the hitting structure felt, for the lack of a better term, loose. A bit disjointed nearing contact. If that makes any sense. And yes, there was a lack of tension across the chest (shadowing it now, it's crystal clear). Will fix that immediately. Thanks coach! :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  40. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Yea..

    just remember you're supposed to hit 'with the body' as a 'unit'. Maintaining the hitting structure is one part of that. Another part of that is maintaining the structure of your upper body. Therefore you need to put the left arm to work so that when your core rotates into the ball it works as a solid unit. The left arm has to somewhat mirror the right arm as I think we've discussed before.

    If the left arm is not supporting the stroke then bye bye goes the structure of your hitting core. In your case it causes your chest to cave in and become soft. When you hit and use that right shoulder and pull, not strongly or quick but in sync with, with the left arm you should feel your chest puffing out like a king kong does when he beats his chest. the shoulders open and the chest puffs out and then the upper torso is balanced and the chest muscles are now engaged and are part of the equation and supplying power as a unit. The chest muscles are big. Use big muscles for power. All of them. That's the idea anyway. easier said than done.

    Look at fed's and nadal's off hand and chest in action here.
    Notice how they use the left arm. It comes across and is away from (fed) the left side of his torso. It's mirroring the right side's arm and torso side. The arms are moving together as a unit. See their chests open up / puff up. Their upper torso, chest and both arms are 'maintaining their structure'. It's a solid, synchronized unit working together with the racquet arm which is also maintaining the structure. They are hitting the ball with their body. Not just their racquet arm.

    @ 6:16 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDJJS3d2N1c&t=6m16s and the same with djoko @7:25
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  41. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Nice example! Yup. Trying to imagine the entire structure like this (from overhead, with arm ending at the elbow).

    \_o_/

    So I maintain this entire structure while rotating, with the forearm down loose.
     
  42. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    yes. some ppl that have the lame off arm issue have good look trying to pull the left elbow over instead of pulling the left hand over while swinging so you might just want to try thinking of it that way. That's what I do when i notice my left arm decides it doesn't feel like joining the party on certain days.
     
  43. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Finally got some sunshine over here!

    The side view really shows that the stance is too open a lot of the time. Could have a bit more shoulder turn & positive use of the left arm as well. Not happy with the takeback, I feel the elbow should be higher/I should have more air under the armpit.

    http://youtu.be/1ONDXa_EFRc

    Rear view....someone tell me how not to screw up the volley at 0:16, I do that far too often...
    http://youtu.be/bQ0X9B2jxlw

    Front quarter view:
    http://youtu.be/fVFC1zSGVHc

    Played a tiebreak. Wish the camera lens was wider...but the video is good for evaluating movement, I guess.

    http://youtu.be/a_zo2E2Rghg
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2013
  44. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    Don't swing at the volley. Keep the racket in front of your body at all times.
     
  45. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Did I run through it?
     
  46. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Yes, you totally ran threw your volley, taking not a care for form or placement, only to smack the ball too high over the net and long.
     
  47. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Been giving the arm a rest after PRP treatment (screwed up after a tournament), but it seems to be much better now. Taking it out for a spin, pardon the rust. Gotta burn the holiday pounds :(

    I'm in the white shirt.

    Warmup:
    http://youtu.be/E-xLnfhTKCo

    Doubles play:
    http://youtu.be/1h_vm4AEAMM
     
  48. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Yes, the shoulder turn on the forehand. From whatever stance you are in you need to get the shoulders fully turned. The shots you looked best on in the tiebreaker were returning wide serves because it forced you to turn your shoulders. A full shoulder turn should help the falling off to your left, also, since you won't be able to pull off the ball as much.
    Make sure you aren't late/contact point is in the right place, since hitting the ball behind your optimal contact point can cause you to pull away from the ball (to get your body out of the way).
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2013
  49. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Thanks! I realized that my desire to keep contact (way) out in front, and shorten my backswing has had the effect of reducing my shoulder turn. Gotta find the happy medium.
     
  50. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    Is it legal to stand outside the singles line on serve in doubles?

    regarding the shoulder turn: a tip that helped me was to turn the hips too. I have an extreme open stance too and tended to only turn my shoulders. the pelvis should be turned to the side fence too and the shoulders a little more.

    see the almighty novak. his pelvis is not completely turned to the side fence but like almost while your pelvis often stays completely open and you only turn the shoulders. more pelvis coil can help.

    [​IMG]

    you have great hands BTW almost no missed volley or even half volleys.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2013

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