Finding my strokes after 20 years. Stroke video inside

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Greg G, Jul 1, 2012.

  1. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Testing out new software for video processing/ analysis. Video slowed to 10%, with graphic overlays of the swing path angle. Awesome!

    Now we can be more scientific in analyzing my swing path!

    http://youtu.be/LiOwxbKHqkY
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2012
  2. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    OK here's video of today's hitting session. Was trying to emphasize internal shoulder rotation and flattening out the swing path. Wasn't too successful judging by the video, but the shots were definitely hit with better pace. I hope the wrist thing has been minimized already...

    http://youtu.be/Xvs0GNCTVnc


    Am loving this Kinovea software! Slow mo vids below:

    Slow motion vid from front/side. Should the swing path be flatter still...say 20 degrees?
    http://youtu.be/EdFIgSn0Og4

    Slow motion from rear.
    http://youtu.be/Zi3jt6Quim0

    Backhand in slow motion:
    http://youtu.be/ch8B7WoyHo8

    Stills:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  3. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    wow. very nice. getting better. the ISR makes a big difference. ball sounds better too.

    I think you should pay me now.
     
  4. Chillaxer

    Chillaxer Semi-Pro

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    I'm in the situation of re-getting back into it after play9ng a lot when young. A bit like riding a bike, your strokes are still there.
     
  5. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Thanks Cheetah! I owe you a beer, along with everyone else on this thread :)

    The concept of 'hitting with intent' did the trick. Still think I could keep the left hand extended out just a tad more. I played a set with it (sd card had an issue, couldnt take video). Was able to dictate the point with the forehand, and run the guy around consistently! I need to work on the inside out forehand. I don't hit it as cleanly, must be a timing thing, since I worked so much on moving the contact out in front. Also have to improve lateral mobility, and move more diagonally to cut off the wide balls.

    Chillaxer, yup it is like riding a bike. Fitness and (unconscious) match play decision making are the parts that are harder to get back.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012
  6. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    In the second picture, during your unit turn, your racquet head should be at the same height as your head as it is in the first picture, and your stance should be wider and lower with your weight on your right leg ready to transfer to your left leg.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012
  7. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    WRT the width of the stance, I think I was backing up/running around. But yep I could be wider/lower. I am not all that happy with the takeback. Will work on that aspect. I think my wrist should be more neutral and not laid back during the unit turn, which is probably causing that part to be a little stiff, and not allowing me to 'pat the dog.'

    This is some good hitting by Murray. I like the swing path:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAel5QkCJ6I
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012
  8. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Nice vid of Murray. I've never seen that one before. Did you see the 'training block' vids of him on that channel? some really good hitting by murray. nice swing path.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012
  9. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Last edited: Aug 12, 2012
  10. CCH4TENNIS

    CCH4TENNIS New User

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    Hi Greg

    Thanx for the headup on the Kinovea software, it works beautifully and I can now generate lots of JPGs automatically based on the speed that I want.

    Cheers :)
     
  11. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    OK presenting Darth Greg LOL.

    I was working on trying to get the takeback lower and keeping the wrist loose and neutral during the takeback. I wasn't as successful as I had hoped-- the wrist is still kind of cocked back during takeback, and as a result the forearm is slightly supinated. probably why I don't get to the pat the dog position.

    The swing looks a bit better though, at least to my eyes.

    http://youtu.be/TCkhGV87Rls

    Slow motion. I annotated it with what I think is wrong. Please do comment.
    http://youtu.be/XDFKM0ALVwY

    Stills:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  12. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    really a good looking Fh overall!
    nice work
     
  13. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Greg, excellent technique overall. But, your takeback in your videos is still a bit too high compared to the takeback in the stills at pics #2 and #3. Racquet head at head height is ideal, IMO.
     
  14. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Hey, where's my beer?? :mad:

    Looks like you've elliminated the dance w/ partner on the left so that's good.

    It's time to fix that takeback now. We're tired of seeing it. :)
    Why cant you put your wrist in a neutral position in the ready position? You know what that means right?

    ok... i watched again... i know one issue that's contributing with your c0cked back wrist on takeback.
    Take a look at your video. What do you think you are doing that is contributing to having your wrist in that position? I could just tell you but I'd rather you try to figure it out first on your own.
    Let me know what you find.
     
  15. johndagolfer

    johndagolfer Semi-Pro

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    It looks a lot better!

    Just curious do you hit a flat ball or one with a good deal of top spin? I am guessing flat.

    Keep up the work!
     
  16. Nellie

    Nellie Hall of Fame

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    I think you are opening your shoulders too early. Specifically, it looks like you are rotating the shoulders and swinging the arm in two separate motions, so a lot of the energy from the shoulders is being lost. Try delaying the shoulders for a fraction of the second.
     
  17. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    IMO, his wrist should be cocked back from the beginning and throughout the stroke. The problem, as I see it, is that he is making a loop with his hand and taking it back too high. He should take his hand straight back behind the ball.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  18. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    @5263: Thanks! Still working on some issues with the takeback. Hopefully will get it sorted soon so I can work on making it a natural part of my game!

    @Limpinhitter: I think fixing the cocked wrist on takeback will also get the racquet head lower. Bear with me. Of course I cherry picked the one with the lowest takeback for you ;)

    @Cheetah: After we fix the takeback! LOL
    I think the left hand pushes the wrist into a cocked position, with the elbow going down. This also causes the forearm to 'pre-supinate', and the racquet head to point back. I think the solution is to keep the right elbow up. Will shadow it, it seems to be a pretty well ingrained muscle memory :p

    @johndagolfer: If you look at the videos on the first page, I used hit it a lot flatter with the classic forehand. But with less consistency and power. This new version allows me to hit more topspin or flatten it out, with easier access to spin and power. It breaks down a lot less in match situations. When I get tight I can hit out but with more top.

    @Nellie: Thanks! Will pay attention to that. I was working on letting the arm lag behind the shoulders and not arming it.
     
  19. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    No. It's a chain of events. The kinetic chain of the forward swing starts by turning the hips, which pulls the shoulders, which pulls the arm and racquet. Top players shoulders are more open and lead their arms and racquets more of their forehands than what Greg G. is doing now.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inQvbT8uEGk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCm6OIjbPr4
     
  20. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    if your wrist is cocked back from the beginning then you won't get any ssc thus lower rhs. also it makes your arm / wrist stiffer from the cocking back which will lead to a slower racquet and will contribute to any 'arming' of the stroke you might have. if you look at pro's they have none or very little flex on the take back. their wrists **** back only during the forward swing which triggers the ssc. imo.

    Fed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESFU2IR_Dj0
    Djoko http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me1tzm1nnWk

    The racquet head is pointed up and in neutral position. The more extreme the grip the less neutral it will sometimes appear but it is still in the neutral side and not cocked back. You can see the flex only takes shape as they pull forward.

    OP has a big nono in his take back that is contributing to this so I'm waiting to see if he can figure it out before I tell him.

    IMHO
     
  21. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    The wrist should be cocked. Remember the girl with the band that forced the wrist to be cocked throughout the swing? I think Cheetah is talking about how your racquet face is pointing up rather than to the side and back fence because you are making a loop with your hand rather than taking it straight back behind the ball.

    Also, please read my prior post about the chain of events and kinetic chain. I think you're doing great with that is a short period of time.
     
  22. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Remember this from the video you posted. The wrist should be cocked throughout. Greg is just making too big a loop with his hand causing the racquet face to be pointing up when he takes it back.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=ULmbwyLefN9B4&v=mbwyLefN9B4&feature=player_detailpage#t=242s

    The hand should move straight back, not in a loop, the way this same girl does here on her shadow swings:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&list=ULmbwyLefN9B4&v=mbwyLefN9B4#t=259s
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  23. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Yes. That's correct. You are pushing it back with your left hand right from the ready position.

    Also, you are taking your racquet back leading with the head. That is a big no no. You should lead the take back with the elbow. The elbow goes back first. Not the racquet head. Watch a vid of any pro. The elbow always goes back.

    Also, this is a personal preference but you might want to try holding the racquet on the upper side in the ready position. You hold it on the bottom and you push the racquet into the cocked back position with the left hand. Your right arm stays still, you push the racquet back w/ your left hand which cocks the racquet back and then you do your takeback leading with the racquet head. If you put your left hand on the other side of the racquet this will help break that habit. I hold my racquet this way. So when I'm in the middle of the takeback my left hand (most of it) is on top of the racquet. It's the opposite of what you have.
     
  24. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Yea her hand is cocked back during the takeback but that's wrong. It should be cocked back in the forward swing only. wrist should be loose and neutral during takeback. I'm sure she'll be coached out of that. How can you get any stretch shortening cycle if your wrist is already cocked back? Look at the fed and djoko videos i just posted. They are a better reference than the 12 year old girl.
     
  25. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Greg, I don't think you should keep the right elbow up in the takeback. Rather, you need to keep the right hand down and bring it straight back.
     
  26. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    He's making a big loop because he cocks his wrist back immediately from ready position and then does a takeback leading with the racquet head which pushes the head behind his body wta style. he needs to do a takeback leading with the elbow.
     
  27. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I don't know what you mean by "stretch shortening cycle" but that is not a part of the forward swing which is UBR and arm suppination/pronation. The cocked wrist promotes a proper rotation of the shoulder and arm.
     
  28. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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  29. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  30. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    yes it is. it's used in all strokes including serve. it's when you stretch the muscle and you have the few millisecs to take advantage of the ssc and the muscle snaps back giving you speed/power.
     
  31. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Yes i've watched those and read the article when i was a member last year. If you notice he specifically talks about leading with elbow first, neutral wrist, and ssc. I know he does in the video. I don't remember the article exactly. I'll check it out but i'll bet he does talk about it there too.
     
  32. sunof tennis

    sunof tennis Professional

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    I agree. It also looks like the first motion you make is to take the racquet downward and then bring it back up high. A simple shoulder turn from ready position should get the racquet in pretty decent position. Your motion takes longer and it almost looks like (although it could be the camera angle that you are hitting a little late. Having said all that. Your strok looks good!
     
  33. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Limp, try this: stick your arm out like you are going to shake someone's hand. make sure your wrist has no flex, no extension, no deviation. 100% neutral wrist. now put your racquet in your hand while keeping that same neutral position. The racquet is pointed up and at a slight angle right? It kind of 'looks' c0cked back if you look at it from a certain angle right? And it looks just like how the pros are holding their racquet in the take back and just before the beginning of the forward swing right? This is what they are doing. Neutral, loose wrist. Then they pull forward, the wrist flexes back and they make contact with the bent back wrist.
     
  34. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Not sure how important it is, but I agree with doing it this way for several reasons and it is more natural in a sense, along with getting the wrist laid back when it needs to be.
     
  35. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    More specifically, I would describe it as setting your arm and racquet position with your left hand on the throat of the racquet and at the completion of your unit turn you are ready to let go of the throat of the racquet and begin your forward turn. IMO, Greg would benefit by simply turning his upper body and eliminating the loop with his right hand.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  36. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    IMO, the optimal position of the arm and racquet to begin the unit turn back is with both the elbow and wrist at 90 degree angles, with the elbow in and forward, the hand at approximately the same height as the elbow, the top of the racquet pointing straight up, and the racquet face pointing to the side fence. When you begin your forward turn, the flex you're referring to is suppination of the forearm, not flexion of the wrist.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  37. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    You're talking about suppinating in the takeback rather than at the start of the forward swing. Yes, that's a bit WTA'ish, but, I'm not too concerned about that now. However, I would strongly urge against the flying elbow in the takeback. The elbow should remain in and forward throughout the entire swing until contact when it comes up and out. He's also making a loop with his hand which shouldn't be there, IMO.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  38. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Look at the videos I posted. Safin, Fed, Djoko, Almagro, Monfils. They all take the racquet back and the elbow is leading. This happens automatically if you hold both hands on the racquet and don't lead with the head of the racquet by cocking back your wrist during the takeback.

    The flying elbow is when you lead with the elbow, separate your hands and keep the racquet head in front of your hand a la sampras. that's different. just leading back w/ the elbow is not a 'flying elbow'.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  39. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    If you don't lead with the elbow in the takeback then maybe you are talking about an old school takeback. With a modern fh it's elbow first as illustrated by this girl who demonstrates old school fh vs modern fh.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK2JougB9sg
     
  40. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    When you say "lead with the elbow," I'm picturing Lendl and Sampras. Those are flying elbows. I don't know anyone leading with the elbow as their primary technique today. IMO, the takeback should be led with the hand, or at minimum, with the hand and elbow together. The elbow should be in and forward. So, it wouldn't be leading the hand.
     
  41. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    look at the vids i posted. they all lead with the elbow. can you show me one vid of any current male pro that doesn't take back with leading elbow?

    it's called flying because the racquet head is in front of the hand/elbow after separation. like sampras. and the elbow is still going back hence the 'flying'. in modern fhs the elbow goes back and then the racquet goes behind or even with the elbow.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  42. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Cheetah, FYI, the term "flying elbow" is a golf term. Jack Nicklaus had a flying elbow - his right elbow, especially when he was younger. To my knowledge, I am the first and only one to apply it to tennis. I have never read or heard anyone else apply that term to tennis other than me.

    A flying elbow occurs when a player, employing independent arm swing from the shoulder (irreconcilable with a modern forehand), raises the elbow up and away from the body in the backswing, and snaps the elbow back down in the forward swing. Lendl and Sampras did that. So did Edberg and a few others. None of the top pros do that as a primary forehand today. Some may lead slightly with the elbow on the backswing, but, that is not optimal, IMO. The time to lead with the elbow is on the forward swing, not the backswing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  43. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Yes i know it's a golf term and i did say 'after separation' which means the arm is now moving independent of the body. If you look at sampras / lendl at the end of their takeback the elbow is back and the head of the racquet is in front of the elbow ie closer to left arm say. Pro today have elbow back but racquet head is behind the elbow.

    Every male pro leads with the elbow. I've posted a lot of vids in this thread. They all lead w/ the elbow. I asked you to show me a vid of even one that doesnt.

    If you hold the racquet w/ 2 arms in ready position and do a unit turn w/ both hands on the racquet how is it possible to not lead w/ the elbow?
     
  44. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Because when the elbow is in and forward, you lead the takeback with the hand.

    Federer leading with the hand:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc

    Nadal (with wrist extremely cocked) leading with the hand:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s6o66M1Lsg

    Djokovic leading with the hand (his elbow comes slightly away from his body):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TZ2zyfYtLU&playnext=1&list=PLA7279CD3D52A9B94&feature=results_main
     
  45. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Here's Fed during his takeback. How do explain he got into the 2nd position?

    [​IMG]
     
  46. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    all those videos show them leading w/ the elbow except nadal and you can see his elbow goes back before the hand. then the hand goes behind the elbow (the backswing). the videos you showed are starting from midway from the takeback. Look at a video that shows them starting from the ready position. they lead with the elbow then elbow stops and hand goes behind.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  47. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    The backswing is what we're talking about, yes? This is leading with the elbow:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3dZ0rnouhk&playnext=1&list=PL3585D0FD894D35ED&feature=results_main

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS3Ff1x7PYY
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  48. Cheetah

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    haha. last night i was thinking you were probably referrring to backswing. i was talking about unit turn/takeback. from ready position while your are standing in athletic stance facing the net with 2 hands on the racquet. then you do the unit turn (takeback). if you have 2 hands on the racquet your elbow will reach the back first. then at end of unit turn/takeback you do the backswing. that is led w/ the hand as you say. The original issue i was talking about was that OP is in athletic stance then he cocks his wrist back immediately which points his racquet head back and THEN he does the unit turn.

    btw, you should watch the virtualtennisacademy vids on ssc. he has 2 of them. one in video instruction and one in articles. they are excellent. the ssc is the motion that locknroll talks about w/ the drum.

    fyi all my posts come with an implied "IMHO"
     
  49. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I use takeback and backswing interchangeably because, IMO, there should be very little if any independent arm swing during the unit turn back, or forth. The entire swing should consist almost exclusively of UBR and arm suppination/pronation. The arm only suppinates and pronates, it doesn't swing (much if any), from the shoulder like an old school drive. I like the way Greg has his wrist cocked back (flexed), toward him with his left hand on the racquet. But, I don't like the big loop he takes, with independent arm movement, as he turns back. He also suppinates somewhat during his unit turn back so that the racquet is tilted to the back fence (aside from the wrist being flexed), rather than straight up when he's ready to turn forward. If I'm not mistaken, I think that's your biggest criticism at this point. By doing that, he squanders some of the suppination/pronation snap generated when suppination is delayed until the hip turn forward begins (as described by the L&R guy), that you don't see on the WTA tour.

    I think I understand what you mean by leading with the elbow. But, I don't like that description because "leading with the elbow" during the unit turn back can be interpreted to be the Lendl/Sampras flying elbow. As a practical matter, I don't think you need to think about leading with the elbow on the unit turn back. If I understand what you mean by that, it's automatic.

    I tried to find the vids that you and Greg were referring to, but, I couldn't find anything.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  50. sunof tennis

    sunof tennis Professional

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    I agree-you said it much better than I did.
     

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