First Hand Experience With Americans vs Foreigners in College Recruiting

Discussion in 'College Tennis Talk' started by 10s_plyr, May 23, 2012.

  1. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Concur. You can ask "what's the return really worth"...........or how long will it take to achieve any positive return taking into account the likely debt load.
     
    #51
  2. Staidhup

    Staidhup New User

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    As a parent of a former collegiate player, D1 high quality tennis coupled with a rigorous academic schedule is a grind, takes a special, self motivated, dedicated student athlete. She may want to consider walking on and having to prove her self or broadening her search area. Fortunately there are regional collegiate futures tournaments she may want to consider. Playing high level tournaments in the area's she is looking will assist in exposure. Her junior summer is important in the exposure game and she needs to be seen to become noticed. Contact her coach and see what connections he or she has. In many cases her coach played collegiate tennis, has contacts, and should help in evaluating her options and opening doors. Also there are small high quality coach's in Florida to investigate for training an evaluation.
     
    #52
  3. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    Foreign players should not be allowed to receive scholarships, plain and simple. Usually, the state pays for this, why should they fork over money for them?

    ESPECIALLY in men's tennis. First, you have Title 9, then you have the foreign players who rarely give a f*ck about school, then, nothing is left.

    It was annoying as a college player and it's even more annoying as a parent...
     
    #53
  4. JLyon

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    wow generalize much
     
    #54
  5. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    Generalize what?

    1) States (or the athletic dep.) pay the scholarship?

    fact

    2) For Men's Tennis, after Title 9 and Foreign Players, very few scholarships are available for American Males?

    fact

    3) Foreign Players rarely give a f*ck about school?

    Okay, I can give you that. How about, "The foreign players that I knew never gave a f*ck about school..."

    4) It was annoying as a player and is annoying as a parent?

    That's an opinion, not a generalization.
     
    #55
  6. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Try to debunk the following with some facts. http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/USTA_Intl_SA_FAQ_FINAL_CLEAN.pdf
     
    #56
  7. kme5150

    kme5150 Rookie

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    #57
  8. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    You could rewrite this about jobs in the US...

    "Foreign job seekers shouldn't be allowed to get jobs in America. The states give companies tax breaks to hire people, they shouldn't get a break to hire a foreigner.

    Especially in (insert your job field). First you had the women's movement, then you have foreigners who rarely give a f about America. Then, nothing is left.

    It was annoying as an (insert job) and is more annoying as a parent."

    Comes off a little bit of a whiny statement from someone that doesnt like the competition, IMO.

    Work hard and get to the highest level and things work out. Sit back and relax and someone will take your spot. It's capitalism.
     
    #58
  9. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    Debunk what?

    38.4% of the varsity tennis players are international? What percentage of those players have some sort of aid? 90% maybe?

    Let's say you have 10 players on a team, you're only allowed 4.5 scholarships?

    The math doesn't favor the American Male.

    I played at a big school and the only international players we had were on some sort of aide. If there was no aide available, they wouldn't be there. People wonder why American tennis is falling behind, this is one of the reasons...
     
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  10. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    Totally different. This is amateur athletics, this isn't a "job." It isn't capitalism, in fact since every college losses money on it, it's closer to socialism.

    There are plenty of other stupid NCAA rules (that most international players break anyways *generalization). They are allowed to go pro if they please.
     
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  11. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    American kids are getting scholarships for tennis. May be harder to get then at the top schools but they are getting tennis scholarships.

    It's more than anyone else has provided. Since its a few years old that's the only argument against it. In 2007 the same complaint was ongoing. I've been on this board way before then and been discussing internationals and tennis from the beginning.

    Got something better? Not a challenge. Its just that I don't think the numbers are much different now and am open to new data.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2012
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  12. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    And I have a problem with that. I would rather pay to play at Ucla then get a full ride from Holy Cross.
     
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  13. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    When I look up the word job, the definition is: A piece of work, Especially a specific task done as part of one's occupation or for an agreed price.

    So, I don't follow your logic. A student athlete is asked to play a sport on behalf of the school. In exchange, the school offers to pay all or part of their costs of attending college. That sounds an awful lot like a job.

    And plenty of businesses (nearly all actually) lose money. So, that is strictly capitalism. Survival of the fittest if you will. Socialism would employ a safety net. It's debatable that the academic side is based on a socialism model, but the athletics department doesn't get to go out and spend willy nilly and then get covered on the back end by the government. People would lose jobs, sports get cut, etc in that sort of instance...like a business.:wink:
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2012
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  14. floridatennisdude

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    I'd like to play for UCLA as well. Unfortunately, I wasn't good enough. Matter of fact I wasn't good enough to play anywhere. That's not UCLAs fault, Holy Cross's fault, or the NCAAs fault. That's on me.
     
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  15. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    I think my point is more that, for example, I was recently speaking with the parents of one of the top (if not top) junior's in California. They recently spoke to Ucla and USC and they mentioned to me that they weren't likely to give him a full ride. Obviously, other schools were, but that's really not the point.

    How the f*** can't the best player in California not get a full ride to any school? That's stupid and is a direct result of the foreign infusion. And, in a way, it is the NCAA's fault considering a lot of these foreign players should be ineligible anyways. We have the best player in California and they are fighting for teams to pay for school. It's a joke.
     
    #65
  16. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    This is another recycled argument. It gives the impression you're not as informed about the issue as you think you are. However I'm open to hear you out and learn more.

    Rarely does any male tennis player get a full ride. I believe you're misguided and need to take issue with Title IX for that, not the internationals.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2012
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  17. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    Agree, hence my original post:

    I know Title 9 is the main problem with Men's Tennis, but giving 3 out of your 4.5 scholarships to foreign players doesn't help.
     
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  18. Rob_C

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    Are you saying 3 foreign players got 3 whole scholarships?? I thought normally men's tennis players only got partial scholarships, maybe up to like 75% depending on how goos they are??
     
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  19. andfor

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    Title IX is not changing and at the NCAA and internationals on tennis rosters are not going to change in the foreseeable future. In the U.S. we need to get used to the global nature of the world we live in. I see no better Enviroment for today's kids then college tennis. If a kid wants to play for the best he or she will need to strive to and then become the best. Practicing and getting better is a far better example for our kids then blaming someone and something else for not being able to make a team. It would also be wise to have ones sights on multiple schools. Not just one top program.
     
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  20. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    No. Basically 75% of the scholarship total went to Foreign players.
     
    #70
  21. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    I guess the main disconnect that we have here is that you believe that the NCAA's is some sort of international tennis league. I disagree, to me it's the National Collegiate Athletic Association.

    I also believe that they should be allowed to play, but not receive financial support. Tennis doesn't make money so someone else is paying for it, likely you and me with our taxes or someone else's tuition.
     
    #71
  22. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    He can't get a full ride to those schools because that is their scholarship outlay. They have committed to a certain amount already and they would have to start booting kids off the current roster to get him a full. Maybe they don't think he is worth that much. Who knows?

    He can get a full ride somewhere if he is what you say. It might not be dream school U, but someone is going to see those accolades and pick up everything for him. It's on him to search that school out. And then make the schools that didn't offer it pay for not doing so by beating them. That's the game.
     
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  23. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Maybe you'd like to elaborate on how this increased competition is in your words causing "American tennis is falling behind".

    Kid can't get a full ride at UCLA. What's wrong with a half ride and merit aide to make up the difference? You going to tell us the scholarship levels have something to do with how good American tennis players become? If a full scholarship means so much how come American college women tennis players have even less success transitioning to the pro tour then the men? Golf has the same scholarship levels as tennis, is this why Rory McElroy is so good?
     
    #73
  24. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Nearly all businesses lose money? Is there a source for this statement?

    Tangential to the discussion, I realize.
     
    #74
  25. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    Everything you stated has been stated before and I'm in agreement with.

    What you fail to grasp is that the best player in California (6th largest economy in the world) should be able to get a full ride anywhere they want. Since they can't, there is something wrong with the system. Name one other sport where the best 18 year old at that sport from California wouldn't get a full ride to the school of their choice?
     
    #75
  26. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    There are limits in European pro basketball for Americans to play on a team (I believe only two are allowed), European basketball has gotten better.

    The same could be said for Japanesse baseball, their game has gotten better.

    In regards to women, 50% of D1 players are international.

    I don't understand your Rory McElroy comment. Most pro's play in college (including Tiger), that doesn't happen in Tennis. Rory is a child prodigy that didn't play college (one of he very few).
     
    #76
  27. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Baseball.

    Superstars at elite baseball schools get .7 tops.

    (Baseball has 11.7 equivalent schollys that may be spread over no more than 27 players.....roster limit is 35 I believe)
     
    #77
  28. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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    ...............................
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
    #78
  29. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Baseball was stated, but track and swimming are a possibility too. Not a lot of full rides there.
     
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  30. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    #80
  31. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Men's soccer is 9.9 for rosters usually of 20+.

    (Tennis is 4.5 for rosters of 9-10, baseball is 11.7 for 27 scholarship spots.......anyone can do the math and compare how many schollys per roster spot there are in these sports)
     
    #81
  32. andfor

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    And American basketball and baseball players are chomping at the bit to play Euro basketball and Japanese baseball? Americans who play there either can't make it in the NBA or MLB or are washed up and hanging on to the pro game and pay day. International basketball and baseball players aspire for the NBA and MLB. MLB and NBA do not have restrictions on internationals.

    Women's college tennis at the D1 level get 8 full scholarships and there are more women's tennis programs than men's.

    I threw the McElroy comment in there as nonsense because that's how I feel about your argument and logic.
     
    #82
  33. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    #83
  34. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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    Per my earlier post, here is some confirmed reality. Nick Andrews recent graduate and #1 at Cal, was a blue chip recruit in 2008. Here is a question from an interview done in March
    http://www.norcal.usta.com/news/college_spotlight_nick_andrews_cal_berkeley/

    STA.com: You were a top recruit in the class of 2008. Why did you choose Cal?

    Nick Andrews: During the recruitment process, I was given some good scholarship offers from other schools, but I wasn’t offered any scholarship from Cal as a freshman – it was left open-ended, with an opportunity for scholarship in the future. However, I chose Cal because of its strong academics and top tennis program. I really believed that Cal would push me and motivate me to succeed; I did not want to go anywhere else. I have had a lot of success during my time here. I have been able to earn a scholarship during my last three years and have grown a lot as a player.

    It is also very important for me to get as much experience as I can while in college, and Cal really offers that from the personal, social, academic and athletic perspectives. There is a lot of tough competition in the Pac-12, and I am very fortunate to have competed against some of the best players in the country. It has been tough to balance school and tennis throughout my time here, but I believe I couldn’t have found a better place to succeed. Cal has really pushed me in all areas, and I have really benefited from the opportunity to attend this university. I couldn’t have made a better choice.
     
    #84
  35. Rattler

    Rattler Rookie

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    Wait a sec....Rice more academically demanding than UT?


    Hahahahahahahahah!

    In what discipline?
     
    #85
  36. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    Superstars in baseball go pro.
     
    #86
  37. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    That's what the foreigners are, players who couldn't make it on the circuit. It's the same but in reverse...
     
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  38. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Ok, 7 out of 10 businesses fail within 10 years. In industries like restaurants it is far higher. They don't fail because they make too much money. Whatever, back to tennis.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
    #88
  39. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Please read my post again. It said "superstars at elite baseball schools". What I posted is correct. No problem if you choose to take the route of being misinformed.
     
    #89
  40. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    ^^^but to his point, superstars in baseball do go pro instead of enrolling in college. They do this in tennis too. Sock, Fratangelo, Kudla and Harrison in recent years. Roddick, Querry, Fish, etc in the past.

    Your point is correct Misterbill, full rides in any men's sport outside of football & basketball are very hard to come by. Not only are some schools not fully funded, but they also have to work with 4.5 schollies.
     
    #90
  41. 10isDad

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    Ah, the taxes argument...I'm sure I'll be flamed for this one.

    According to College Tennis Scholarships, there are the following number of programs:
    D1 - 236 (m) / 320 (w)
    D2 - 161 (m) / 212 (w)
    NAIA - 92 (m) / 110 (w)
    NJCAA - 120 (m) / 141 (w)

    Assuming every single program had the full allotted scholarship numbers (they don't) that would add up to 8,977.5 scholarships. Assuming the average value of each of these scholarships was $50,000 (probably a bit too high) and assuming that every scholarship was completely funded by taxpayer money (they aren't), that would add up to $448,875,000 per year. Now assume 50% of this money is for foreign students (too high). There are about 138 million personal tax returns filed annually, so that's about $1.62 per tax return.

    Sure this is only one little piece of the taxpayer pie, but taken singularly and put into this perspective, the tax argument seems a bit weak.
     
    #91
  42. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    A little outdated of an article, but this should shrink 10isDad's math further by about 80%: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/sports/10scholarships.html?pagewanted=all
    - Excluding the glamour sports of football and basketball, the average N.C.A.A. athletic scholarship is nowhere near a full ride, amounting to $8,707. In sports like baseball or track and field, the number is routinely as low as $2,000. Even when football and basketball are included, the average is $10,409.

    It is also important to understand that the major conferences are far less likely to have any taxpayer funds going to scholarships than smaller schools. I would argue that it is darn near zero at the stronger SEC programs that operate at huge surpluses. Florida donates back millions every year to the academic side: http://news.ufl.edu/2007/08/15/uaa-gift/
    - UAA has given nearly $40 million back to the university since 1990.

    “The Athletic Association has a long history of donating funds back to the university to fund academic endeavors and we are pleased to be able to make this contribution today,” University Athletic Director Jeremy Foley said.


    So, as weak as $1.62 per taxpayer seems, it is probably more in the $0.15-0.20 per taxpayer.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
    #92
  43. andfor

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    And that's what American college tennis players are, players who also could not make it on the circuit. Poor argument.
     
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  44. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Yeah. Maybe that's why I do not see the relevance.

    Could be the relevance is that since (if) a lesser percentage of high school tennis players turn pro than high school baseball players, then college tennis players should get bigger college scholarship packages?

    I dunno.
     
    #94
  45. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    superstars in baseball get full rides.

    First of all, if you are the 20th best 18 year old baseball player in the country, you are debating on signing with the Red Sox for $1.85m or taking a full ride somewhere. You have leverage with, let's say, Ucla. You say, "hey Ucla, give me a full ride or I'm going to take the $1.85m that the Red Sox are offering me."

    If you become a superstar at Ucla in baseball, you are likely to earn a full ride (assuming you didn't already receive one from your leverage of going pro or not).

    If you are the 20th best 18 year old tennis player, you are fighting for a partial at Ohio State. Huge difference.
     
    #95
  46. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    You can't be farther from the truth.
     
    #96
  47. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    ITF Futures tournaments are more prevalent in Europe and geographically easier to travel to. That said, many top level H.S. kids in the U.S. play ITF futures tournaments like the Euro kids. NCAA DI tennis rules state that eligibility starts within 6 months of H.S. graduation. Your perception is still in the 80's and 90's. Get with the times and stop hiding behinds excuses.
     
    #97
  48. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    We disagree on the facts. I am confident in my information. Full rides when there are 11.7 to spread over 27 slots don't make for championship caliber teams.

    Your claim that full-rides are prevalent for baseball super-stars coming out of high school is based on your theoretical offer by the Red Sox of $1.85 million. OK let's go with that.

    Say a full scholly is worth $50,000 annually (and that's probably high). I say the superstars get .7 equivalent. That's worth $35,000 per year. You say they get a full. That's worth $50,000 per year.

    So your point is that if a kid is offered $35,000, he will take the $1.85 million instead............but if the kid is offered $50,000, the extra $15,000 will make him forego the $1.85 million?

    Or maybe your point is that the kid tells the coach he got offered $1.85 million and tells the coach if you give me $15,000 more I'll turn the $1.85 mil down and play for you? I know that's not how it goes down in the real world. If a kid is turning down $1.85 mil to play college ball, it's because he wants to get an education and experience college life. It's not about $15,000 more scholy money

    Note baseball players are eligible for the draft after high school and after junior year in college, so most elite college ball players have 3 year college careers.

    I don't know how knowledgeable you are about tennis, but I am forming the opinion that your knowledge of college baseball is not first-hand.
     
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  49. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Here is a case of the 8th best player coming out of HS and drafted in the first round turning down the money...
    http://www.gatorzone.com/baseball/bios.php?year=2012&player_id=91

    Obviously, they don't publish the scholarships that players receive. Based on his stats on place in the rotation, I am only assuming that he is not on full ride. So, your example is lost on me.

    However, UFbaseball has 0 international Players and 28/32 players are in state. UCLAs roster is of similar proportions so I guess that could boost your argument somehow. Still, you need to do the math. 4.5 for an 8-9 player roster in tennis has better odds of players getting money than 11.7 for a 32-35 player roster.

    It's funny to me that people in this country complain about kids not getting athletic scholarships. No other country in the world even has a system close to ours that allows a kid to get significant athletic scholarship money. Here in America, we just complain that it isn't enough or that the "right" people aren't getting the scholarships. We have it pretty good.
     
    #99
  50. andfor

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    Regarding college baseball and scholarships there are many white kids taking baseball scholarships at HBCU. Here's one of many articles. http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/06/02/2142654/white-players-fill-historically.html

    Rarely would a white American tennis player take up an opportunity to play at a HBCU let alone a black American Blue Chip tennis player. Although on the surface one may say there's no correlation between whites playing baseball at HBCU's and internationals playing college tennis there are. The problem is more kids wanting to play college sports and with that growth in participation the college baseball and tennis programs are not growing. More likely programs get dropped not added.

    The point is, tennis kids often want to attend or play tennis at one or two elite schools or tennis programs. Limiting their options they often find they are not skilled or accomplished enough to make the tennis team. They then blame the internationals or title IX. Tennis players like the white baseball players who play at HBCU's may want to take a look at being more open to multiple opportunities that present them self to play college tennis. If tennis playing kids are willing to look and not play at just BCS/Ivy type programs kids will find there are many good schools and tennis programs with scholarships available to them.

    I'm not asserting that all tennis players look to play at HBCU's but if they really want to play college tennis be open to multiple options.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012

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