for serve, do you feel the racket weight in trophy position?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by taurussable, Aug 18, 2014.

  1. taurussable

    taurussable Professional

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    During a few shadow swings: If I try to be really relax during the backswing, I felt the racket almost disppears when it goes through trophy position, I can't feel its weight. Is that a correct feel for relaxation?
     
  2. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    There should be a moment in time when the racket is pointed straight up at the sky, so you feel the overall weight in the handle of the racket.
     
  3. taurussable

    taurussable Professional

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    how about the tennis ball in soccer sock drill

    [​IMG]
    or

    [​IMG]

    If you feel the weight at trophy position, would it fall because the sock or the total serve device is soft and can't support its own weight?
     
  4. HughJars

    HughJars Professional

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    I have a tip - stop thinking so much
     
  5. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Seems correct to me, but then I normally don't pause in trophy, and to the extent I do, it is normally a power position to the right.

    Rather than going by feel, I suggest taking a video of your serve and seeing if you're hitting the proper positions and make sure that you're not doing something funky with your wrist.
     
  6. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Just don't copy this girl. I don't like the straightened arm in takeback, her elbow is too low at trophy and she's doing some weird cocking of the wrist.

    It is perfectly fine to have the racket transitioning thru the trophy position, which means you won't feel the weight of it, because you aren't pausing and waiting in a trophy position. During the sock drill, the weight will not be pressing into the hand at trophy. Nothing wrong with that.
     
  7. taurussable

    taurussable Professional

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    Thanks WildVolley. This is where I want a confirmation. It helps. I took the girl picture just to show what I mean by sock drill just in case some don't know what it is. I agree she is doing the drill wrong.
     
  8. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    You don't like it, but isn't it one of the fundamental? I'm not strictly saying what the girl is doing is 100% correct, but taking the arm/racket farther back is winding up the distance for forward. In other words, less back less forward distance. Nadal, Djokovic all do far, straightened arm takebacks, no?
     
  9. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    No, it isn't a fundamental at all. It is purely a style-issue. IMO, it is a style-issue that screws up a lot of serves - though some people do it very well. If you take the racket back and straighten your arm behind you, you still need to get it bent in trophy before you can do a proper serve.

    No, the straight arm before trophy makes your windup longer, but it doesn't increase power!

    What increases power is getting hip turn, leg loading, archer's bow, throwing arm up, shoulders angled up, and, crucially!, the hitting arm elbow back (elbowing the enemy) and in line with the shoulders at the trophy position with the arm bent at the elbow at least at 90 degrees at trophy.
     
  10. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    WV,
    I'm not discounting all the leg, etc.

    I can set up the trophy with the racket head relatively above/close to my head or the racket head further back and away (elbow forms 100degree+). Shouldn't the latter be better?
     
  11. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    No, the elbow must bend at least 90 degrees or more acute at trophy. Study all the great servers and you'll see this is the case. Even if the server has a long takeback (Sampras) he hits at least a 90 degree bend at trophy.

    My point is that it is not necessary to straighten the arm in the takeback - it is a style issue. Roddick was one of the biggest servers of all time and he had a bent arm takeback.

    Nadal used to have an exaggerated straight arm in takeback and he started hitting a lot bigger when he went to a more direct approach to the trophy (hitting serves over 135mph in 2010). Djokovic used a straight arm in takeback and used to suffer from a low elbow in trophy.

    Straightening the arm in takeback can be done well, but I see it lead to a lot of problems, which is why I tend to discourage it.
     
  12. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Seriously, folkes.... NEVER try to copy a girl for throwing motion lessons, unless it's that Little League pitcher who throws in the 70's on TV lately.
    Most big servers do not straighten their elbows before bending them to 90 degrees or closer.
     
  13. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    I'm trying to copy this guy. Does he or does he not straighten out his arm before pointing the racket up?

    [​IMG]


    How about this guy?

    [​IMG]
     
  14. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Already mentioned some guys straighten their racket arms.
    Old history.
    And they are NOT the dominant servers in ATP tennis.
     
  15. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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  16. mbm0912

    mbm0912 Professional

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    Yea, Roger's serve wasn't ever that great was it?
     
  17. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Roger's serve is lacking, compared to Goran's, Tanner's, Ivo's, Isner's, Milos's, Groth's, Dibley's, even McEnroe's, but in his defense, he's really only around 6'2" in height (very close to DJ at 6'3"), and his all around game is superior than those I mentioned above.
     
  18. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Djokovic is an example of a guy who has changed his serve for the better and one of the changes was a more direct take back without the straight arm portion.

    Here's Djokovic's serve in 2009 with a straight arm in takeback and the elbow too low in trophy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtfEP6bOrvI

    Here's the improved version in 2014 without the arm straightening and with a better elbow position.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwFK4LCN0to

    Now I won't claim that the straight arm was the cause of the lower elbow, but I think it should suffice to show that the straight arm is a style and not something to consciously emulate in order to hit a good serve.

    I advise against it because I think not straightening the arm is more natural and simplifies the serve, having fewer moving parts being better, etc.

    In any case, rather than reading me or LeeD, it is best just to get some video of your serve and make sure you're hitting the proper position at trophy. Straightening or not straightening the arm, in fact almost all of the windup is about timing rather than power.
     
  19. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    depends on whether you use a Loop like federer or a direct over the shoulder takeback like roddick.

    if you Loop the racket can almost fly up by momentum while you have to lift it up with the direct takeback.

    it's only 10 ounces though it it might not make a big difference.
     
  20. taurussable

    taurussable Professional

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    Yes I try to copy Federer's serve motion to the best of my ability, so I do use a loop takeback.

    I feel the loop takeback is harder to master but it is requires a bit less shoulder flexibility.
     

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