For the few that will care - Mazda planning new RX-7 for 2017

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by FD3S, Nov 3, 2012.

  1. FD3S

    FD3S Professional

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    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/mazdas-mx-5-guru-reveals-details-on-the-next-rx-7/

    This news made my day, as my username will attest to. I've always been a big fan of the RX-7 in all its incarnations, despite the practicality of owning one being slim to nil.

    Yeah, it had horrendous gas mileage, a tendency to drink oil like there's no tomorrow, the literal need to rev the engine high (because let's face it - the rotary engine was meant to be DRIVEN) and was overall expensive to maintain. But it was also one of the finest handling sports cars on the planet, with an motor that was butter smooth throughout the entire range, and the auto geek in my is rejoicing at the rotary being given another shot even if it is aimed for five years down the road.

    Pistons? Valves? Give me rotor housings and apex seals any day :D
     
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  2. Say Chi Sin Lo

    Say Chi Sin Lo Legend

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    2009 Mazdaspeed 3 owner here, and I'm excited about the news as well.

    I don't mind the 2017 release date, because by then, I hope I'll be financially capable to purchase a second impractical no-nonsense sports car.
     
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  3. FD3S

    FD3S Professional

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    ^ Knew I recognized that name from somewhere! I lurk on M3F and thought I'd seen your handle somewhere before. Do most of my posting on bcmazda3 though, currently driving an 05 GT. Great little car!
     
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  4. Say Chi Sin Lo

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    I won't lie, I considered the RX-8 R3 too, but there's just a lot of value in the MS3.
     
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  5. FD3S

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    Not a bad call - as good as the RX-8 is, it shares a lot of issues with the 7 and adds in a notable lack of torque. By contrast, the only complaints I've heard about the MS3 revolved around the interior trim and torque steer, with the former being a question of taste and the latter being a controllable byproduct of a turbo'd FWD. For the value to money ratio though, I don't think there's a better car.

    (Now we wait for GTI enthusiasts to come out of the woodwork.)
     
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  6. Say Chi Sin Lo

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    Ain't no torque steer if you've got both hands on the wheel like you're supposed to anyway.

    1st gen's interior was simple and classy.

    2nd gen's interior is like a spaceship.

    RX-8 was lacking in straight-line performance, but there's something to be said about winding the engine up to 9,000rpm like it's nothing. :) On top of that, there's not a single car that was going to out-handle the RX-8 for the money.
     
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  7. FD3S

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    Yeah, I was always taught to keep my hands on the wheel at all times, so I was curious when the 'issue' came up - when I figured out what it was, I just kinda shrugged and thought 'different strokes'.

    You've nailed it on the head - the RX-8 was the best handling car in multiple segments, if I recall correctly. One of the road tests on TTAC was basically almost all non-stop praise until the tester looked and saw he was getting 16 MPG, which in all fairness is pretty horrendous.

    Still, that's part of the trade-off for the Wankel, eh? Anything with the Renesis isn't going to have beating its competition off the line as an end-all goal, anyway, and besides; it's not like the RX-8 was totally slow, either. It had enough power for its needs, but if you just wanted a straight quarter-mile car there were better options out there.
     
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  8. Say Chi Sin Lo

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    Where's the fun if the car isn't a little crazy, and tries to kill you if you're not paying attention. :twisted:

    Back to the RX-8, when you're not really going anywhere (in the realm of high-performance car), 16MPG is a tough pill to swallow.
     
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  9. FD3S

    FD3S Professional

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    True - the people who seemed to get the most out of it either lived near really twisty terrain, tracked it fairly regularly or had really short commutes :p. As fun as the car is to toss around in corners, there's not a lot of opportunity to do that safely in the city or suburbs.

    Still, they're easier to find than FC's or FD's in comparable shape, and so long as they're taken care of properly (I've seen so many people b!itch about the car failing when they can't take thirty damn minutes to do some research, much less the five to add more oil) they're surprisingly sturdy. The only models I'd watch out for would be the autos from the first generation, and even those issues were rectified later.
     
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  10. Rock Strongo

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    I haven't yet got around to get myself a license (I've basically been throwing money away on games instead, it's probably time I act like a responsible 18-year old now...), but the RX-7 is something that's rather intriguing in my mind and I'm glad that they're planning to release a new one. I think the previous generation was a thing of beauty and I'm sure it drove pretty epically as well.

    Now, if only teenagers in hoods would stop trying to impress pre-pubescent girls and their Fast and Furious-loving friends by ruining the body of every single one, and the CRX, and the older Skylines, and the Silvias, and the Supra, and that list just goes on and on.

    The list just goes on and on, and I don't want a Porsche 944 as a first car (well, they're very cheap-ish, a few months work) but it seems the only viable option because it hasn't been ruined by a pimpled man who never once backed away from his car and thought "that looks absolutely horrible!".
     
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  11. FD3S

    FD3S Professional

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    No shame in dropping cash on games so long as you're having fun and nothing important is being neglected :) That said, driving is fun as hell and if the RX-7 caught your eye you've got excellent taste in cars!

    First cars are always tricky - the temptation to buy something kick-ass right off the bat is strong! I was going to recommend the 240 SX as a good starter, but if all the ones around who have been defaced by ricers... :( Integras and RSX's are solid choices that look good and handle well, and have juuuuuust enough HP to be fun. I'd be biased toward the Mazda 3 as well (love my car) and if you can find one the first-gen Lancer Ralliart isn't a bad choice, either.

    Just have fun with driving in general! Auto, manual, 4WD, FWD, whatever... so long as it's not rush hour traffic, being on the road is great.
     
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  12. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    Ever wonder why the rotary engine never caught on, why the German company that originated it sold the rights and why even Mazda doesn't use it in any other vehicles? Because it's inefficient garbage with poor throttle response, marginal emission controls, and miserable gas mileage. A new RX-7.1? Yawn.
     
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  13. FD3S

    FD3S Professional

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    Yeah, but the RX-7 was never built to designed to emphasize (or even address, really) any of the bolded points. Hell, the FD was pretty much their halo car by the end of its run, and we know how profitable those usually are compared to the econoboxes. If you bought the RX-7, you bought it for its obscene power/weight ratio and the fact it carved through corners like Fed carves through slices. For better or for worse, it's a driver's car, with the driver willing to take on a bunch of caveats for the sheer fun factor. If that's not your thing - and it's not for a lot of people - there are better choices out there.

    Personally, I never got a shot at the model in my username, so I'm looking forward to this one.
     
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  14. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    ^^ Poor throttle response is OK with sports car enthusiasts? Surprising! My point was that even for a sports car it's a lousy engine; the patent on rotary engines expired long ago so any manufacturer can use the design, yet NOBODY else who builds drivers' cars has the least bit of interest in this engine design. This engine has been around since the 1960s and simply never caught on.
     
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  15. FD3S

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    Huh, how'd I miss that? Guess I focused too much on the latter two points... well, might as well say this now; not one person I've talked about this car (mechanics, past drivers, etc...) has ever listed throttle control as a complaint. If anything, I've heard raves about how the response is smooth and even the whole way through (unless the car's turbo'd, but that sudden jolt is normal for FI). If you mean the throttle's too sensitive... I see that as more of a right foot issue. Maybe I've gotta search forums more, or something, but you're the first person to bring this up. Care to elaborate?

    Why WOULD anyone else want to to take a shot at this engine? Mazda saw Wankel's design, developed cars with it that were reasonably profitable (again, not a bad thing, I doubt cars like the Supra or 300 ZX were the backbone of Toyota's/Nissan's bottom line) but not to the point where others felt it was worth putting in R&D time. They dug out a niche, and I doubt any other car company felt like it was worth it to try and work themselves into it - when the FB first came out, Mazda already had a head start on automotive rotaries for a number of years. Had Nissan or Honda tried to come out with a rotary, it probably would have worked as well, but there was no way people would have bought theirs over Mazda's.

    I don't think we're disagreeing that much - the rotary engine IS inefficient, it DOES have horrendous mileage and it DOES give the environment the finger. No one sane could argue otherwise. It just so happens that all the cars to use it also happen to be phenomenally fun to drive, and a big part of that comes from the inherent characteristics of the rotary.
     
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  16. krz

    krz Professional

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    meh I liked my FDs/FCs with LS1s in them :p

    There was nothing like the 90's for Japanese cars. I recently sold my 511WHP MR2.
     
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  17. FD3S

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    A lot of people seem to like that swap! In 2012 it's not a bad choice if you can afford it, though a lot of people still seem to swear by the 13B's, if only b/c of the power per liter measurement. Yeah it's a stat that's kind of useless for typical driving, but I find it downright interesting from a technical standpoint. Gotta give props to the LS1 for causing a hell of a lot less heartbreak over the years though!

    Oh, man. What kind of mods did you have on that MR2 (SW20, I'm guessing?)
     
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  18. SwankPeRFection

    SwankPeRFection Hall of Fame

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    Meh, making this car an NA car (i.e. non-turbo) will be like making another POS like the current Subaru BRZ/Toyota 86. (Why the F they didn't leave the VF turbo on that boxer is beyond me...) Without a turbo it'll just suck, I don't care how you cook it. Besides, you can't take a legend car of the 90's and strip the very things that made it what it was. They did that with the RX-8 and it sucked ass. Maybe I'm just a traditionalist, but I don't believe if taking one of those icons and trying to reinvent them by stripping away the very heart that made it what it was.
     
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  19. Say Chi Sin Lo

    Say Chi Sin Lo Legend

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    I wouldn't go as far as to say rotary engines are garbage. If so, you better find another way for international travels.
     
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  20. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    ^^ Ummm, the (Wankel) rotary engine in the Mazda has nothing in common with a jet turbine engine.
     
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  21. Say Chi Sin Lo

    Say Chi Sin Lo Legend

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    I assume the fundamental designs remain the same? Jet engines are rotary engines right?
     
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  22. Steve Huff

    Steve Huff Legend

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    I had a 79 RX 7. Fun car to drive. Friend had a 280Z. His was faster, mine handled better. As for gas mileage--on the highway it wasn't bad (around 27). In town--12-13, even when driven lightly. And, it used oil more than most cars--about a quart every 5-7000 miles. It was rated at only 101 HP, yet I had it over 100 a few times, and judging by the tach, I could probably have gone 130. Not bad in those days for a small car. I bought it in 85 and still was solid--no squeaks or rattles. Rotary engines had most of their weight very low, so handling was their forte. Kind of like the boxer engines of the Subaru BRZ now.
     
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  23. krz

    krz Professional

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    Yup SW20. I literally just sold it last week. Here is a copy/paste from my for sale post. To be honest though, my friends LS1 swapped FC was one of the most fun cars I've ever driven. And the FD has to be one of the most beautiful cars to ever come out of Japan.

    I need a more mature non-boyracer toy now that I've hit 25. I'm torn between a NSX or Elise. I almost went Porsche 996 but, the car is downright ugly... those headlights!

    Anyway to the mod list.

    Induction:
    Greddy T67 Turbo 8cm Housing
    Greddy Tubular Exhuast Manifold with Brace
    Greddy External Wastegate
    Greddy 3" Downpipe
    Greddy Type R BOV
    Custom 4" Intake

    Intercooler:
    Spearco Air to Water Intercooler Core Mounted in Engine bay
    OEM Lexus Heat Exchanger up front
    Trunk Mounted Resevoir Tank and Pump

    Engine:
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    Forged Eagle Rods
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    ATS Racing Headgasket.
    HKS Dual Dragger Exhaust
    Ross Machine Racing (RMR) Intake Manifold
    BBK 75mm Throttle Body
    MoTec M4 Engine Management System

    Fuel System:
    Aeromotive Fuel Pressure Regulator
    Walbro 255 Fuel Pump
    850cc Top Feed Injectors
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    Braided Stainless Steel Lines

    Transaxle:
    ACT 6 Puck Clutch
    93 E153 Transmission
    OEM Limited Slip Differential

    Suspension:
    Tein HA Coilovers
    Suspension Technique Front Sway Bar
    Suspension Technique Rear Sway Bar
    TRD Rear Strut Bar
    Polyurethane Motor Mounts
    Crossed Drilled Front Rotors
    Aftermarket Rear Stabilizer Bar

    Interior:
    TRD Shift Knob
    AEM Uego Air-Fuel Guage
    AEM True Boost Controller and Guage
    Stainless Steel Door Sills
    Leather Door Inserts
    Personal Steering Wheel
    A'PEXi Turbo Timer

    Body:
    Lexus RX300 Projectors and OEM Denso Parts
    94 Rear JDM Spoiler
    94 Rear JDM Tail Lights and Center Panel
    94 JDM Trunklid with GT-S Emblem
    OEM 93 Front Lip
    Color Matched Mouldings

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  24. FD3S

    FD3S Professional

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    ^ That's a gorgeous car. Guessing you tracked it?

    If you can find an NSX in decent shape for a decent price I'd say go for that - it's a design that (to me) has aged just as well as the FD. Elise's make for fun toys though :D Have you considered the FR-S/BRZ? It's been getting solid reviews from most people, and at this point in time it's probably a better bet then restoring an AE86, as venerable as that car is. Are you dead set on RWD?

    The LS1 VS 13B is like 1HBH VS 2HBH - there's no clear-cut winner online. A safe assumption seems to be that the LS1 gives you more power off the line but the rotary allows for more precision in cornering, though individual opinions seem to vary.
     
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  25. FD3S

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    I just saw this post :p The reviews on the FR-S/BRZ seem to be pretty solid across the board, and a light-weight car RWD car doesn't necessarily need forced induction to be fun. It's no 86, but it looks like it would handle being tossed into corners pretty well.

    If Mazda end up going the forced induction route, I'd probably prefer if the new RX-7 went with a single turbine - the sequential twin turbo setup on the FD caused a lot of problems down the line, even if A LOT of the problems were caused by ignorant owners. If they go NA - just make the new engine have more torque than the Renesis and we'll be good.
     
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  26. Say Chi Sin Lo

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    I'm all for NA, but the recent trend on being eco-friendly AND respectable power calls for a turbo setup.

    My Mazdaspeed 3 doesn't have terrible turbo-lag, but it's still there. If I can have all the power right now without FI, I'd do it in a heartbeat. If I'm in the wrong gear, the nothingness that happens from 2,000rpm - about 3,250rpm seems like an eternity for me.
     
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  27. krz

    krz Professional

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    Yup, the best looking cars from that age were the NSX, FD, and SW20.

    RWD is the only way to go. Ever. :)

    FR-S/BRZ while a great feeling/driving car, is just a little too gutless for me. Plus, if I went with the Toyota version, I could never see myself putzing around in a Scion (Shallow I know.)

    But, to be honest I'm leaning away from the NSX as I'm a little tired of older cars, there is always something to fix. The other option I'm thinking of is moving to just one car for everyday driving instead like a 2009 Z4 or a Cayman.
     
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  28. Say Chi Sin Lo

    Say Chi Sin Lo Legend

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    Cayman is the obvious choice.
     
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  29. krz

    krz Professional

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    Unfortunately, they are pricey. I very rarely see any early models sell for less than 30K which is really at the top of my budget.
     
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  30. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    Every engine has SOMETHING that rotates, obviously, including electrics. Wankel has rotating "piston-like" elements, jet has rotating compressor (as does any turbo car engine.) Hardly very similar.
     
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  31. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    I used to have an RX-8. Nice car but its greatest downfall was the engine. Horrendeous fuel economy, used 1l oil every 1,000 miles, non-existent torque at the bottom of the rev range, had a tendancy to flood over very short distances. Also heard from various owners clubs that the engines needed to be rebuilt at 70-80k miles. I'm not sure what benefits there are to the rotary design as there seem to be more disadvantages than advantages.
     
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  32. Say Chi Sin Lo

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    I also heard that if you start and stop the engine within a ~5mins window, you risk flooding the engine too. Also, I heard that you have to redline the engine at least once a day to get rid of the carbon build up. And I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.
     
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  33. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    ^ Yep. I flooded the engine moving the car from the driveway to the street. The engine really needs to be at a reasonable working temperature before turning it off, otherwise you run the risk of flooding. Such an interesting car, lovely to bomb down winding roads with it, but there are so many day to day things about it that drive you nuts. In the end it was just too much hassle. I replaced it with a 350Z which wasn't as practical, but was just as much fun to drive and utterly painless.
     
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  34. FD3S

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    Mainly power/weight ratio, smooth response through the entire range and the fact that most Wankels are quite honestly robust if maintained properly due to less moving parts. Shorter total lifespan (though I've seen some rotaries well over 100000 K with no rebuild), but if the owner's careful and takes care of it the engine's got a very good shot of making it to the end of that lifespan.

    Of course, thinking back to all the rotary horror stories I've heard the 'proper maintenance' thing doesn't happen too often. There are a lot of people out there for whom putting in a quart of oil every so often proved to be a bridge too far :p

    I can see why the redlining thing would be an annoyance though, especially for a DD.
     
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  35. Say Chi Sin Lo

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    I drove the Z for a week. It was powerful, pulled like crazy, handled well. But, I couldn't overlook the weight of the thing.

    It felt like I was driving a really fast tank.
     
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  36. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

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    Now this is a post worth reading.





     
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  37. FD3S

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    Well, if you can get past the styling, the Miata's always gotten pretty much universal praise from people driving it - cheaper than the Z4, at any rate.

    I've never had the chance to drive a Porsche - was gonna ask if you ever had trouble with rear-engine RWD, but then I remembered you were coming from a monster MR2 and thought better of it :)
     
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  38. krz

    krz Professional

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    Miata's are amazing cars to drive. But the styling isn't my cup of tea and I'm looking for a bit more of a high end feel at this point. Then there are always those uninformed people who call them girl cars :p

    With Porsche I must say even with them releasing recent abominations such as the Panamera/Cayenne, their other cars are still true to form in terms of driving experience. Though Boxsters have that same stigma Miatas have, so I couldn't own one(wow I'm getting way more shallow these days.)

    Rear engine-rear drive/mid engine-rear drive I learned 3 words very early. DO NOT LIFT!
     
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  39. tennismonkey

    tennismonkey Semi-Pro

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    if mazda's idea for the new rx-7 is a $20-25k two seater/2+2 like the new subaru BRZ/scion FR-S -- then i think this is a great idea. lightweight rotary engine and supreme handling would make for a fun car. if mazda is making a competitor for the 350z or 335i in the $30k+ price range -- i think it's a fail. rotary is too low on hp and torque and fuel/oil economy.
     
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  40. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    I have always thought about buying an old porsche..something super sweet and retro like a 944. It just would not make sense as a daily driver, which is what I need.

    I think the best cheap daily is still an older 4runner.
     
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  41. Torres

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    Yeah, different sort of feel to the RX-8. The 350Z is definitely heavier, and more from the 'old school' bruiser class of coupe, heavier inputs needed, stiffer ride and bit more jittery on the limit but a fun drive nonetheless and the engine just blows the RX-8 off the road. Noticeably more power (around 300bhp from what I can remember), much more low down torque, more more usable rev range, creamy smooth yet makes a great sound. You can even hit 70mph in 2nd gear!
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2012
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  42. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    I drove my friends Ferrari 599, talk about weight. 6 litre, V12, 620hp, FR setup. Big car, but handles amazing. The acceleration is awesome, but taking it in and out of turns at the speed it can do it at feels like its physically impossible given its size and weight....yet it just sticks to the road and doesn't move. Its all in how the car is developed.
     
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  43. Say Chi Sin Lo

    Say Chi Sin Lo Legend

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    I hope not. From a marketing standpoint, if Mazda price the new RX-7 as low as $20-25k, it'll de-value the RX-7 brand/image. RX-7 has established itself as a premium, no-nonsense sports car. It was originally designed to compete with the likes of Porsche. You can't price the car at the Scion FR-S/Subaru BRZ and say you want to compete with Porsche. If the RX-7 is in the conversation with the NSX's, 911's, GT-R's, etc., it can't be priced that low.

    I don't know about the sound. I found it to be fake, "tries too hard", and ultimately super annoying. That drone made me not want to go onto the highway.
     
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  44. FD3S

    FD3S Professional

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    I'm torn. On the one hand, the RX-7's last incarnation was indeed a high-priced, high-end car capable of competing with just about any car out there - on the other hand, a light-weight two seater with a rotary power-plant appeals to the part of me that holds cars like the AE86 and FB in high regard. I'd say $25-30k would be a decent price, as any lower and they'd probably have to start cutting corners.
     
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  45. krz

    krz Professional

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    I agree with both of these points. If they are going to build a true RX-7 successor (RX-8 was far from that) it's going to cost a lot more than 20-25K. They sold for nearly 40K in the early 90's priced pretty much on par with the Supras. So, a new true RX-7 with a MSRP into the 40's-50's wouldn't be out of the question. Though the car is going to need some serious performance.

    I can't stand 350z/370z's either not only does the car "try to hard" but, it's kinda the image I have of the drivers too.


    On the topic of the BRZ/FRS they are planning a turbo version so, I have high hopes for that one.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2012
    #45
  46. hollywood9826

    hollywood9826 Semi-Pro

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    944's aint bad. For a cheap daily you cant beat those old Volvo 240 diesel wagons. Those things seems to last forever.
     
    #46
  47. hollywood9826

    hollywood9826 Semi-Pro

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    And as far as Rx-7's go Im pretty sure those 87-88 ones destroyed any legacy of an RX-7 being in the same boat as porsche. My aunt had one and she is a hair dresser.
     
    #47
  48. krz

    krz Professional

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    You do realize the the quintessential hairdressers car is a porsche right?
     
    #48
  49. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Didn't you just say you were annoyed by people calling Miata's girl cars?

    I'd rather drive a Porsche than a Miata.
     
    #49
  50. FloridaAG

    FloridaAG Professional

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    I like Mazda. We have a CX-5
     
    #50

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