Forehand Consistency.

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Kana Himezaki, Jun 10, 2005.

  1. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    I'm sure you have a GREAT forehand as long as you don't limit yourself by keeping a ball under your armpit. THAT'S MY WHOLE F***ING POINT!!!
     
    #51
  2. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    You didnt make your point very well and you took things to the extreme and were splitting hairs on everything.

    You dont understand what purpose certain exercises are for and why they exist. The ball under the arm pit is an EXCELLENT aid in helping people learn the distance their elbow needs to be from their body.

    Again the challenge from me is I will play with my elbow close to my body as if a ball is under my arm pit. It may be a ball, or a ball in a half. But my elbow will not go willy nilly all over the place. It will not go out to the point of being extended like a gate.

    You can do whatever the hell you want.

    Come on let's get rid of my old out-dated forehand. Let's bury it.
     
    #52
  3. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    Now we're talking!!!!! So we'll build a little teather, the length of one and a half tennis balls and we'll hook it to your side. For $500.00.!!! You're ON!!!
     
    #53
  4. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Actually you forgot one thing. My elbow may be close to my side but it is allowed to go back and forward further then the distance from my side.
     
    #54
  5. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    . How do we make sure of this. These are YOUR words, not mine. And you say I'm not clear?? You backtrack more than Pete Sampras chasing an Agassi topspin lob!!
     
    #55
  6. ATXtennisaddict

    ATXtennisaddict Hall of Fame

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    U know...I always like to think tennis is picking up a racket, swinging it, and hit the ball over the net.... with all this super-analysis, I am getting a major headache LOL :)
     
    #56
  7. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    You saying federer doesn't use proper form when he is "barely even warming up"... What you're implying is his forehand improves as the match goes on? WRONG!

    Also, you can clearly see the elbow is not fully bent.. it is partially bent. At contact the angle the elbow is bent is about 120 degree angle, maybe even more. If it was fully bent he would be able to kiss his palm. Bad choice of words Kana... Either you're blind, extremely exagerating, or just use words incorrectly. Good thing you used the word "relatively close" in the next sentence.

    Here is Federer forehand again for your review: http://www.importexpert.com/tennis/Federer_FH.mov

    I'm not aruging that the elbow should or shouldnt be bent.. This post is simply trying to show that different grips have variable degrees of bending the elbow.. and that the elbow on federer's forehand is not fully bent as Kana suggest. Go frame by frame you will see at contact the elbow is actually relatively far from the body.
     
    #57
  8. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    A picture does a thousand words..

    Notice the "fully bent" elbow and how it is kept "relatively close" to the body.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    #58
  9. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    Uh oh. If Roger had a tennis ball under his armpit, it would be on the ground.
    Roger, you need some lessons from Kana, PRONTO!!
     
    #59
  10. ATXtennisaddict

    ATXtennisaddict Hall of Fame

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    Federer has so many types of forehands though... tennisplayer.net says so.
     
    #60
  11. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    I'm not saying federer doesn't have different forehands. Obvioulsy theres a forehand drive, forehand looper, forehand flattened, etc.. I'm not even aruging about the elbow tucked in or bent..

    I'm saying Kana claims that federer has a "fully bent" elbow in the video clip I linked.. And thats flat out wrong LoL



    Watch this and tell me what you think: http://www.importexpert.com/tennis/Federer_FH.mov
     
    #61
  12. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    So the idea of having the elbow in is a super analysis? LOL
     
    #62
  13. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    Just shove a tennis ball under your armpit and leave it there. You can't go wrong as long as you don't actuallly try to hit your forehand that way during a match.
     
    #63
  14. krnboijunsung

    krnboijunsung Semi-Pro

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    elbow in? Hmm that is something to think about. My forehand is much more inconsistent than my backhand. My backhand gives me more control.

    Another thing that screws my consistency is that when I'm rallying. I wait for the ball to come to me which really doesn't help any stroke because during game you don't get the bounces you get in rallies.

    Nice post.
     
    #64
  15. SageOfDeath

    SageOfDeath Guest

    If you are learning at a camp then you practice it there but when you're playing a match you apply it. Everything has to be automatic because If you struggling to remember the mechanics of your strokes while your playing a match then you'll just fall apart or hard to reach shot, faster paced balls, and unpredictable shots. As for you not wanting to read this well that's your choice this stuff is like free improvement. :D
     
    #65
  16. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    Holy crap, look at all the replies.

    Thereallovebone - What's so wrong about keeping the elbow in? With SW and Western grips, it's essential for consistency and even power. With an Eastern grip, you're still trying to keep your elbow in close.

    Should there be any dispute at all over this? Having your arm almost or completely straight destroys the stroke in general. Keeping it bent and closer to the body is essential.

    Putting a ball under your armpit simply helps get a feel for it. All kinds of coaches use this to train players.



    And TwistServe - Maybe fully bent was the wrong word. But he does keep it bent and sort of close to the body for what's comfortable with his grip.
     
    #66
  17. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    Kana-
    Show me one professional player (besides John McEnroe) who keeps their elbow close to the body all the way until their followthrough. ONE.

    I'll challenge you to the same thing I challenged Bungalow Bill to. We play a groundstroke game, forehands crosscourt. You HAVE to keep a tennis ball in your armpit until you followthrough. I'll bet you $500 on two out of three games to twenty one. You've played for three years?? I've played tennis for 30 years. Come on. If this is such a great way to hit the ball then put your money where your mouth is.
     
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  18. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Kana is 16 yrs old. I don't think her allowance is enough to pay you $500 when she loses..

    Also the bet isn't fair: you're a man and shes a young female.. not that that matters a 16yr old boy would lose just the same LoL
     
    #68
  19. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    You have the whole internet at your disposal. Show me ONE forehand where a ball would not fall out of the pros armpit if it were place there. JUST ONE.
    If it's such a great way to hit the ball then show me ONE.
     
    #69
  20. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    You don't keep a tennis ball in your armpit when you're actually playing a match.

    You do it in practice to get the feel of it and get used to keeping your armpit closer.



    There are plenty of pros. Agassi, Ferrero, almost all of them. Many have large backswings, and the elbow might be further away at the start. But in almost every single one of them, when they begin the swing, the elbow comes in and around before extending again.

    Have you seen/read about the Killer Forehand, for example? Bollettieri (yes, I'm using a famous name, even though I haven't been taught by him, TwistServe :D) asks people to find someone to hold their hands two inches away on both sides of the racquet (when at full takeback). The player then has to pull the racquet out without touching the hands, which means they're bringing their elbow in, and swing through.

    The pros start out further away because it creates racquet head speed. But they ALWAYS pull it in. Unless they have a crappy forehand, of course.
     
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  21. mylet

    mylet Guest

    This helped me a great deal..thanks for taking the time to write it :)
    regards, Mylet
     
    #71
  22. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    If you can't find one on the internet, then videotape yourself hitting deep powerful forehands keeping a ball under your armpit until followthrough. Show me how great these forehands look.
     
    #72
  23. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    That's different from KEEPING the elbow close. In my original post I say the elbow is pulled close near the time of contact, BUT NOT ON THE TAKEBACK.
     
    #73
  24. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    They're all great, and more consistent. I don't have a video-tape, and neither
    do the people at my club, so I can't borrow. I DO have a camera, but none
    high quality or set up for taking pictures at different times during the stroke.

    Neither do I have access to a lot of stroke videos, everything is personal knowledge.

    If you can supply the videos/pictures, I'll gladly point it out. Watch their elbow start out away from the body. Watch them pull it in as they swing, and note how at contact and close before their elbow is far in.

    Bringing it out to in provides more acceleration.

    And Mylet - Thanks!



    EDIT:: Sorry, I missed your second post.

    Nobody ever said it should be kept all the way in on the takeback.

    The drill for keeping the elbow in is generally on dropped balls by the instructor or player close by, when they already have the racquet back.

    Then, after they have the racquet back, they swing through the ball and the ball falls out at the end.

    I'm sorry, I should have cleared that up. It looks like you just misunderstood.
     
    #74
  25. raftermania

    raftermania Banned

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    Some serious analysis going on here wow.

    Anyways, my two (brief) cents:

    I've found consciously keeping my elbow attached to my waist is vital when feeding students balls. But in match play, you can't keep your elbow tucked in because of the great variety of bounces and angles which force your body to stretch and in effect take your elbow away from your body.

    Remember what sport psychology/pepperdine tennis coach Allen Fox said:

    Over-analysis leads to Physical Paralysis
     
    #75
  26. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    Over analysis is bad, yes. But knowing what to do, and gradually making efforts to get your body to use it is essential.

    The bounces and angles will force you into awkward positions.

    However, if you have the time at all, or are in position, there is no excuse for not keeping the elbow in during the swing.

    When the elbow is out, it usually means it's a desperate ball or a last second change in timing. If the ball is in your zone, even if it's especially high or low, you should try to keep your elbow in as best you can.
     
    #76
  27. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    That's exactly what I said. That's how to hit a forehand correctly.
     
    #77
  28. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    Sorry if I missed it. The main point is that during the swing (not the backswing, as I didn't point out clearly enough) the elbow is kept in.

    For the majority of juniors and people who are working out their forehands, it's more detrimental to start out with the elbow away and move it in. The main point of the drill is simply getting the feel for hitting with the elbow in, which is absolutely essential.

    Pulling it back at the start for these people will simply lead to more inconsistency.

    As said in the "Why your volleys suck." thread, which is similar to this one, these are intended for general trouble-shooting and quick fixes that many people have problems with and are easy to change.

    Adding on tips for more acceleration simply gets people more confused and into a power craze, where they forget the tips and just swing as hard as they can.

    The stuff in the thread builds consistency and clean contact, the foundation for any power at all. Which is why slow swings can still have pace.

    Power and acceleration is the end product.
     
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  29. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    What?!? WHICH IS IT!! MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!
     
    #79
  30. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    I've ALREADY SAID IT.

    From your point, the elbow moves in during the swing. I believe raftermania is describing contact and the SWING.

    NOT THE BACKSWING, or setup!

    Or did you get confused again about the racquet starting away from the body and moving in for the swing?
     
    #80
  31. finchy

    finchy Professional

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    that last statement is so true. my coach told me that i was too technical with my strokes. i finally relaxed and let my body do what i thought it to do and im playing the best tennis i have ever played.

    by the way, when feeding students balls, do not do something you would not do in a match. say, feed with a full western grip and push up to dink it. if you do, thats what you are training your body to do and you will do it in a real match. fyi anyways..
     
    #81
  32. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    Wow , a new position!!! A new one every hour!!!
     
    #82
  33. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    It's the same position. I've described it in every post I made.

    You quoted what I've been trying to say over and over again. The pros start out with the racquet away, but pull the elbow in for the entire swing.

    For juniors, and people just trying to learn how to keep the elbow in for the swing, it's best to just start by keeping the elbow in the entire swing, and not pull it in at the start. The drill helps develop the feel for it, and is extremely useful in letting the person adapt.

    Have I not been phrasing this well enough? I've been consistent every time. Pros pull it in for the swing. People learning keep it in the whole time. The drill helps.

    Those last three sentences are as simple as I can get.

    Does this make myself completely clear to you?
     
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  34. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    I know you've said so many different things that it's probably hard to keep them straight. But take your quote above, print it out, put it on your wall , memorize it, and STICK WITH IT!!!
     
    #84
  35. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    I have stuck with it. Have you read the last few sentences in the post before yours...?

    Pulling the elbow in from an out position builds acceleration, and is advanced. But the people reading this thread just need to learn how to keep the elbow in.

    It might also help to lay off the exclamation marks, you sound like you're having a seizure.
     
    #85
  36. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    Your posts make it seem like you have A.D.D.
     
    #86
  37. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    Thanks, at least they help people.

    Not to mention that if I had A.D.D., it might be more like:

    "KeeFHDp youFHDr elboFGHWGADSw in.asfda!!!!" :D

    If I do actually seem to type like that, oh well. I sound random, but
    people still seem to get the point from the thread.
     
    #87
  38. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    I feel sorry for the poor guy who goes out on the court tomorrow and tries to hit forehands with a tennis ball under his armpit. I would rather learn from the pros than some half baked tip that you came up with that I bet you don't even do yourself in your matches.
     
    #88
  39. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    I said it before. You DON'T have the ball tucked in your armpit in matches.

    It's a tool during the swing (not backswing) to help people adjust to keeping the elbow in. It's a practice tool.

    Local coaches use it, international coaches use it, Bollettieri uses it. As an example of a famous name that STILL uses the mechanism.

    I keep the elbow in during the swing in matches whenever I can. It's a good habit that'll help consistency and driving through the ball.

    I fail to see what's so bad about it.

    If you feel there is a better way to help people keep your elbow in during the swing, I invite you to try it. Even you have agreed that keeping the elbow in is essential during the swing.
     
    #89
  40. raftermania

    raftermania Banned

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    Feed with a full western grip? Nope, but I play with a full western grip.

    Push up to dink it? Because of the nature of feeding, I think dinking is sometimes necessary, primarily when you want to draw your students to the net by hitting an approach shot.

    If players are learning new technique, it is best to give them the best learning environment possible. That means you should use an eastern grip and put little to no spin on the ball.

    If you're teaching your students to keep their elbows in like Kana is protesting, you shouldn't feed your students heavy topspin feeds that kick up and over their heads!

    Am I understanding your suggestion correctly, Finchy?
     
    #90
  41. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    What the hell are you talking about?? Here is your original post talking about keeping the elbow tucked in on the backswing.
     
    #91
  42. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    Here's your last post.
     
    #92
  43. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    I'm sorry then, it was improperly classified in the backswing section.

    Fortunately, I believe I have been talking about the swing in at least five posts after that, all of which you have read and responded to.

    Thanks for pointing it out, next time, it'd help if you could get to the point sooner.

    I'll edit it tomorrow, I need sleep. And anyone who's been reading the last few posts knows what to correct, anyway.

    Goodnight. Try to be more direct, the ones you've been yelling at me about for the last many posts have all been right.


    edit:: Yes, I believe that was my last post. And it was the point of the last five or so posts I've made.

    Thank you.

    Second edit:: I realized I spelled edit wrong the first time with an extra "t". Of course, I could've just added the extra "t" because it needed the letter to describe how extra "cool" it was.

    Also, because it's been bugging me, and I don't really care or know if you got the point of the post or not, I realize that you've been talking about the backswing the entire time, and somehow didn't get that I was talking about the swing in all my later posts even though I said it specifically and simply.

    Just say "you put it in the backswing part of your original post". :D Thanks for finding the mistake.
     
    #93
  44. ShooterMcMarco

    ShooterMcMarco Hall of Fame

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    fixed wrist?
     
    #94
  45. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Thereallovebone,

    Why don't we agree on this. You obviously don't agree with the one ball under the arm pit tennis guideline and take it in such a literal sense that it doesn't make sense to you. That is fine with me. You have a right to your own opinion.

    I on the other hand believe in it. I have used it properly with others and other with myself to illustrate an elbow that needs to stay down as it brings the racquet towards contact. No one shoves a tennis ball under the arm pit and leaves it there. It is used as an illustration, a training aid, etc. It is also an exercise that I will stick with and use when needed. Is that fine with you?

    Several weeks ago I spoke of a Doctor friend that had a lot of elbow roll in his stroke. I told him to keep his elbow down and allow the arm to move freely. He didnt understand this at first. So I did the ball under the arm pit theory and made him keep it there. I wanted to isloate the elbow and teach him how to rotate and bring the racquet into the ball. I then fed him slow balls so he could get the feel. At first, the ball dropped on the ground as he improperly incorporated his elbow movment as he hit. Also, his elbow for the most part was too far extended from his body and he lost control on a lot of balls. After about 20 minutes of this exercise (yes, he was very restricted) I let him hit normally. For the first 10 minutes, he got the feeling and his excessive elbow movement was reduced.

    Did the elbow stop moving? Absolutely not. My goal was to have it move in such a way so he could be more consistent with his stroke path and the way his racquet face met the ball.


    Also on the challenge, I will gladly take you on forehand to forehand - I will even let you take the duece court as I am lefthanded and would have to do a bit more running around the ball to execute. Don't confuse elbow movement and elbow distance. The elbow passing close to the body is a staple in how a tennis ball is hit.

    The only thing I ask in the challenge is that my elbow is free to move as it is part of the kinetic chain. It will pass close to my side and I will not extend it out like a gate. The point is the elbow will be close to the body. You can do whatever you want. I think that is fair as there are no restrictions in anyone's ability to strike the ball cleanly. What do you say.

    Why dont we leave it at "that we agree to disagree". I want to still respect you and it is fine with me if you don't agree.
     
    #95
  46. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    Bungalow Bill-
    Alot of beginners and novices come to this site to learn how to play tennis.
    I saw something in Kana's original post that I disagreed with. Namely, I felt on your backswing you would be better off raising the elbow than keeping it tucked close to your side. I said in my earlier post that it's OK to bring the elbow close to your side near the time of contact, just don't limit yourself on the backswing. Then you step in and say that I "MIGHT WANT TO STUDY MORE BEFORE I CHIME IN AND START TWISTING WORDS AROUND". Well, I have to admit that pissed me off. You may bully 99% of the people on this board around, but I'm one of the 1% who's not going to take any of your S**T. If you'll notice, in her last post Kana says that she really didn't mean to say that you need to keep your elbow tight on the backswing. She says
    "it was improperly classified in the backswing section, Thanks for finding my mistake". Maybe I had a good point after all?
     
    #96
  47. krnboijunsung

    krnboijunsung Semi-Pro

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    What a war. It was the same posts over and over between you and kana.

    By the way, who's the girl in kanas avatar?
     
    #97
  48. Return_Ace

    Return_Ace Professional

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    It's her, who the girl in your avatar? It's taken from one of her pictures in the "your picture thread where she's doing a backhand kill.
     
    #98
  49. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    Exactly, I was repeating myself, and he was repeating his self. I'm glad it's over.

    krnboi - That's me in the picture. You get a bigger view and whatever if you find it in the "your picture" thread. There are multiple other pictures near the end, I believe.
     
    #99
  50. ShooterMcMarco

    ShooterMcMarco Hall of Fame

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    can u explain in more detail what elbow roll is?
     

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