Forehand Consistency.

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Kana Himezaki, Jun 10, 2005.

  1. Return_Ace

    Return_Ace Professional

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    Going a little OT but......................Kana how are you 15? I mean ur bday s like before mine yet I'm gonna be 16 this year, how does that work:confused:

    Now back on topic what is elbow roll kana?
     
  2. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, just from this comment which I probably skimmed over you are right. The elbow is free to move for the backswing and it is good for it to rise for several reasons I already mentioned. Where we disagreed was what this rise in the elbow contributed to.

    You're right a lot of beginners and novices do come here. I have posted over 3,000 threads and posts to help people and their tennis.

    THE LAST THING I WOULD WANT THEM TO THINK IS THE ELBOW PROVIDES A HUGE AMOUNT OF POWER WHICH IS POOR ADVICE. That is a recipe for disaster.

    A stoke needs to be developed. Raising the elbow and other things IS NOT something to focus on. The elbow needs ot move naturally when someone learns and if they have a rolling elbow or make contact with their arm to far extended, you better believe the "ball under the arm pit" is appropriate for them to do. Again, you dont know a thing about teaching tennis and only come at it from a playing perspective. You can count on being challenged again from me.

    Now, what we agree on is that the elbow can rise to prepare the backswing if a player wants to do that BUT it is certainly NOT necessary to generate racquet speed or control.

    A player can do many different things on the backswing. Some players extend (Roddick backswing) and others dont. Some players do not have a large amount of elbow movement and others do on the backswing. IT IS NOT A REQUIREMENT.

    You did have a good point but went about it completely wrong. I took issue with the information you brought in and still do! You do need to study more. You took things out of context and said the elbow is the reason for a HUGE amount of power. Sorry, no way.

    I don't think anyone is trying to bully anyone - I think you could have made your point a long time ago without getting highly emotional about it.

    Still want that challenge. You brought it up and if we are in agreement with a fair challenge (my lousey arm pit stroke against your shiney new stroke). Do you live in California? I want the challenge. like I said we can even do this from the duece court which will require at times a bit more footwork to get around a ball.
     
  3. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    I accidentally put the wrong date for the birthday, my bad.

    Thereallovebone and BB - It was my mistake. You're both right. TRLB (LOL.) simply was trying to talk about the backswing. The drill of tucking the ball in and keeping the elbow close is during the SWING, as I stated multiple times in repeating myself.

    He was just confused, and there was an error within the original post.

    TLRB says keeping the elbow out in the backswing is ideal, which is pretty much true. BB and I say that keepin the elbow in in the forward swing is ideal, which is pretty much true. End of story, everyone's right. Backswing and swing are different things.


    As for elbow roll - it's simply the elbow moving around freely and loose, and moving around during the stroke. Keeping the elbow in allows you to control and direct this movement, eliminating the "rolling around".
     
  4. Return_Ace

    Return_Ace Professional

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    Alright everybody END OF ARGUMENT:

    RESULT: EVERYBODY WAS RIGHT!!!!!!!!

    So then Kana what is your real bday then? 1990, i'm guessing..........
     
  5. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    December 19th, 1989.

    I put in the wrong month. :p
     
  6. Return_Ace

    Return_Ace Professional

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    HAHAHAHAHA Yet another december lol, Most of my friends have bdays in December. Oh cr*p I just realised, YOU'RE OLDER THAN ME BY 11 DAYS OMG THAT IS SOOOOOOOO UNFAIR!!!!!!!!!!!GRRRRRRRRRRRR :)
     
  7. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    LOL. December...30th? That's like...

    Christmas. Then your birthday. Then New Year's. Holy crap.

    Where I live, most people are born in September. I dunno why. Actually, it's the 9th month of the year, which means...

    Uh...

    Most people where I live's parents were "busy" during Christmas. Or they just got drunk on New Year's Eve.

    For the sake of the original topic, should I write about anything next...? I could go further on volleys, since I just did basics in that thread, or just move on to serves or backhands. Or footwork, since so many people have problems with that here.
     
  8. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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  9. Return_Ace

    Return_Ace Professional

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    Yep Dec 30th, best thing is:

    24th - christmas eve.....party
    25th - christmas day.....party
    26th - boxing day.........presents
    27th - nothing..............relax
    28th - parents anniversary.....party
    29th - nothing..............relax
    30th - my bday............party
    31st - New Yrs Eve........party
    1st - New Years Day......party

    Great being born in Dec :)

    How bout doing correct serve technique since I fried my shoulder last week after trying to kill a serve, didn't play for a whole week, played up again yesterday where I served better than I ever have before, and then played crap 2day in my match.........
     
  10. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    Talk about twisting words around. Nice Try. I NEVER SAID THE ELBOW PROVIDES A HUGE AMOUNT OF POWER. I SAID RAISING THE ELBOW ON THE BACKSWING CREATES A SHAPE OF SWING THAT IS MORE POWERFUL THAN KEEPING THE ELBOW LOCKED AT YOUR SIDE ON THE BACKSWING. IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT HOW TO GENERATE POWER.
     
  11. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Dont worry about it Kana. I understood what you were saying in the article. For a majority of the article you were right. It is a good thing for the elbow to pass close to the body. The human body would find it very awkward to be prevented to have a backswing and with that the elbow has to move.

    Do not agree that the elbow is out from the body and that is the proper and ONLY way to have your backswing work. For some it is closer to the body, for others it is more back and close, and yet others more out and back.

    It is easy to pick apart someones article when they meant well. This guy also posted false information about the elbow providing a HUGE amount of power which is also wrong.

    I understood what you were saying the whole time and I am sure others did to. It is too bad someone takes things so literal and fails to see the purpose behind an exercise or someones efforts to help.

    I would be careful on the use of swear words or controversial words that provided emphasis on things. I can sometimes be guilty of this as well. But kids do read these articles. It is hard not to get drawn into a fight especially when someone is stubborn and cant get out from the trees.
     
  12. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    Thanks, I'm glad I at least got the point across.

    As for the swear words and kids, I AM a kid. I think most of us are guilty of swear words, I incorporate them into colloquial speech when I'm trying to get a point across.

    It's a habit I need to get rid of. I'm also sort of stubborn as well, so it doesn't help when people begin arguments I feel the need to continue them. :p



    As for the elbow providing a huge amount of power, it DOES provide extra acceleration. I've worked with it and do it in normal strokes. However, it's not what the people reading the article are aiming for, and the extra acceleration is not huge. It's a topic I'll cover later on in a future post.
     
  13. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    May I ask how old are you? I am 46 years old. I have played tennis since I was eight. I have played college level tennis and have studied the sport of tennis for a long time. I have coached at Vic Bradens Tennis College and am USPTA Certified.

    On this board and with your direct use of the english language you do not need to use swear words to emphasize something. You can use underlines, bolds, and italics to do so. You already come across with an authoritative tone and that is ok. Some people will not like it and yo will always risk someone misinterpreting things here. Keep posting.

    You cant please everyone. During college, in a speech and debate class, we learned that one-third of the people will agree with you, one-third will be neutral, and the other third will disagree with you. Just keep that in mind when you continue to post.
     
  14. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Kana is like 16, has been playing tennis for like 2 years, and professionally certified by the kiddies on this site in TAITC (teachers aid in tennis coaching)... She has taught other juniors age 5-6 on how to hold a racquet, and believes firmly that men and women are equals in this sport. Her credientials show she was taught by Bollittieri himself, even though it was through watching the "Killing Forehands" video.

    lol just playing
     
  15. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    I was born on December 19th, 1989 as stated. I'm 15.

    The birthday in the profile is wrong, I should change that.
     
  16. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    That is awesome only 15 years old!

    Good going Kana, keep those posts coming. I hope my daughter is this bold and willing to take a risk with her insight on things.

    I am sure you are learning a lot about communication, coaching and how one perceives what you are saying. I am sure that a lot of the good coaches on this board admire your efforts. Do not lose heart when someone challenges you.

    If you are right never give in. If you are wrong, admit it and move on. Many people here will put words in your mouth so be tough and unrelenting.
     
  17. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Ya that is true. When you post a tip on the boards sometimes you'll get challenged. I've been wrong before and will admit it.. when you're right then its fun proving the other is wrong.
     
  18. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    I'm 15, been playing tennis for over three years almost daily. I have...picked up whatever I have from some searching online and mostly personal experience.

    As for the swear words, I'm working to fix it. :D Authoritative tone? Supercool. The words, strange phrases, and some colloquial speech helps make the post simpler, while making it distinct from articles everywhere else.

    Same thing I need to work on with stubbornness. If I read a post against me, my natural reaction is to reply immediately in response. Same thing on the court, I refuse to lose. If I take the time to think, I can almost always calm myself down and simply leave. But often, I just click reply and say whatever's on the top of my head.

    I'm like 15, been playing for three years, and am not certified at all. LOL, certified by TW teenagers? I could be a qualified member of the "YPWWTWTBH". Young People who want to whack the ball harder, lol.

    I was never taught by Bollettieri, have never seen the killer forehand video, but read part of the guy's book on that.

    Second edit::

    Thanks again. I'm "bold" to the point of being irrational. But I at least think the stuff I say is correct, it works for me.

    As for people challenging me...I'm not about to lose, period. Once again, I'm competitive to a fault. I don't look like I lose heart I've been proven outright wrong. Which hasn't happened. I think.

    Same thing with people putting words in my mouth. That's fine, they're just confused about it. If I can prove myself right, I'll do it. Sometimes the information I provide is actually wrong, that's fine. I'll give credit to them. I'm willing to accept that. I'm 15, I won't get better at explaining and teaching if I don't get criticism anyway.

    LOL, actually, I enjoy the TW flamewars. No better way to express full knowledge of the subject, or actually learn something.

    Well, you learn something until everyone moves into personal insults and posts crap around the entire board on all sides.
     
  19. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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  20. 0.2RatedPlayer

    0.2RatedPlayer Rookie

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    so BB, do you hit with a fixed wrist or with a wrist release?
     
  21. Return_Ace

    Return_Ace Professional

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    Kana haven't you seen in the Rants and Raves section? You have a WHOLE THREAD created to say just how awesome you are :) (and no it wasn't me :))
     
  22. Meat

    Meat Rookie

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    Holy crap.

    She has a post?

    edit:: I know Kana from school. I guess she's well known here.

    Second edit:: Well, not high school, we go to different ones. But we shared the same middle school and my parents know hers.
     
  23. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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  24. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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  25. tennisplayer

    tennisplayer Rookie

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    Hey Kana, BB - give up on "Thereallovebone" - whatever that means. You see, some time ago, he was too late avoiding an overhead, and so he has a tennis ball wedged in his brain. He's never going to agree to playing with a ball wedged anywhere else, including the armpit! Don't waste good energy on a bad prospect!
     
  26. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Another admirable post from the tennisplayer. How old are you? This isn't the rants and rage board. Please keep your personal attacks outside. Please.
     
  27. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    I use the wrist release. You want to be able to eventually do this. When you take the racquet back try to keep the wrist in a fixed position to control the movement of the racquet head. Fixed does not mean tight or stiff. Your wrist is still elastic but it has enough tension to not let the racquet head droop or move widely about.

    As you come forward, right when you think you are going to make contact, let it go. Dont think about it and relax through the followthrough. This is what Mahboob dubbed "the educated wrist".

    My wrist release works hand in hand with the heel of my palm against the butt of the racquet handle. This gives stability which helps me relax my fingers a bit on the handle. I hold the racquet just hard enough that you would have to tug on it a couple of times to pull it out of my hand.

    Hope that helps.
     
  28. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    LOL, well I always believe everyone needs to understand and the lightbulb will come on. But I am beginning to see in this case, it may not happen till sometime in the future. :)
     
  29. tennisplayer

    tennisplayer Rookie

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    You see, TwistServe - and Thereallovebone - I feel you are both destructive influences on a well-functioning tips board. I usually let these things pass, but somehow today, I feel enraged at your needless nitpicking. Don't you have the maturity to let go of little things, and look at the big picture?

    Well, I should know how useless it is to make a point like this to folks with a destructive bent. I will stop posting useless sh*t and read the stuff that matters.
     
  30. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    I saw you bragging earlier that you taught at the Vic Braden Tennis Academy.
    Here's what Vic has to say on the subject:

    What I'm advocating in this book is a loop swing as opposed to straight back.
    This is a controversial issue among teaching pros, YET I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT MOST OF THOSE WHO TEACH "STRAIGHT BACK" USE THE LOOP WHEN THEY GO OUT AND PLAY-as does viritually every single player in pro tennis, with the exception of Jimmy Connors and John McEnroe.

    To visualize the loop swing,try to think of a little hairpin turn taken in two parts. First, bring the racket back at eye level and wait for the approaching ball. Then, in a continuous motion, drop the racket and your hitting hand 12 inches below the intended point of impact, and come forward and up through the ball, toward your target.

    Those straight-back hitters who learn it right-by taking the racket back at waist level and then dropping it to knee level-are actually using a modified loop swing. FAR MORE OFTEN, HOWEVER,THOSE PEOPLE WHO GET THE RACKET LOW DO SO BY TAKING THE RACKET STRAIGHT DOWN ON A DIAGONAL LINE TO THE LOWEST POINT OF THE BACKSWING, WHICH OF COURSE COSTS THEM A POWER-PRODUCING LOOP.



    Gee, I wonder why he canned your ass.
     
  31. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Good call.. But if you look this thread on whos insight/knowledgable posts are most popular? I'm not doing too bad esspecially since I've been known to troll on Federer threads in the Pro forum which is where this is posted:

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=54262

    I also get enough AIM messages from members personally asking me for tennis advise because the boards give them too much garbage they have to filter through.

    If therse a misleading post I'm going to have my comments on it.
     
  32. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    Yeah, my nitpicking which made Kana say. "Oops, I didn't mean to say keep the elbow close on the backswing. Thanks for pointing out my mistake."

    You're an idiot. If I see something wrong, I'll post whatever I please.
     
  33. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Kana hasbeen known to change her statement, not admit it, and twist words..

    1.) Shoulder height is ideal strike zone for western grip
    2.) Oh I mean chest to shoulder is ideal
    3.) Oh I mean its all personal preference. I was never wrong. The shoulder is my ideal strike zone therefore I'm not wrong.

    1.) Oh its essential to have the one ball rule in the armpitt
    2.) Oh nevermind you only do that at first but then as you develop you do whats comfortble.
     
  34. tennisplayer

    tennisplayer Rookie

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    You unmitigated moron. Far be it from me to argue with you - the types that need to have the last word. Go ahead - keep on posting your excrement. I know what to ignore.
     
  35. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Such powerful words. How old are you, you never answered?
     
  36. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    When are you going to stop twisting words? No one said to only have a straight takeback. We have said that the elbow passing the side of the body is a good thing.

    But I brought up some critical evidence which you failed to address. What moves the hand faster?

    The loop takeback is something I do advocate. This is very basic stuff!

    However, I also will not hesitate to teach a straight takeback if a player is having a hard time timing the ball. Once they begin getting it, you add a little more loop or you add enough loop that they feel comfortable with. So why dont you knock it off.

    No one canned anyone. you again are talking about something you have no clue about. Vic Braden is a good friend of mine and I continue to have opportunities to teach when he is in town. Please refrain from making up stuff to make yourself feel good and please keep studying for all of our sakes.

    I live in Irvine California. I would love to challenge you to a forehand test. Why dont you put up or shut up.
     
  37. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    Thank you for your personal insights and great knowledge of the game.

    The strike zone for a Western grip usually encompasses around belly button area to slightly past the shoulder. The racquet path begins sharply upward and whips through the ball.

    TwistServe - On your earlier post on popularity, somehow you are not in the lead at all. If it helps to console you, I voted for you. I'm sure you get many emails, mostly because you share and know all about the game and stroke intricacies. I originally had the idea that you simply screamed and repeated things without any useful knowledge to other people besides your personal opinion.

    The range of people you can vote for in the poll includes general regulars to the section. You don't need to qualify or be good to be in it. Which must explain why anyone other than you made it on the list.

    And thankfully I was wrong about the content of your posts. Your presence on this board alone has enlightened me to numerous things within myself and my game.

    Looking forward to future insights,

    Kana
     
  38. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    Finally I'm getting somewhere.. that's all I wanted to hear.. and you could have saved three threads full of debate with that one statement.
     
  39. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    Go ahead and make fun of my name if you want, but I can't help what my mother named me.
     
  40. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    Thanks, I'm glad you were able to agree with me. That's all that matters.

    I also thought that the strike zone didn't cover the knees, and that I stated chest was optimal several times. But that doesn't matter, does it?

    I EVEN remembered a guy named TwistServe spreading it across the whole forum and MAKING those extra threads. But...it can't be. Not THAT TwistServe. Not THE TwistServe.

    He even has SIX votes for the most knowledgeable/insightful posts! Luckily, Andy Hewitt, Aykhan, and several other established, educated veterans have almost just as many votes. All real students of the game.

    May you lead this board and all people that want to learn to greatness.
     
  41. TwistServe

    TwistServe Guest

    I'm afraid I don't have the experience in tennis to start writing articles and making radical statements about Federer's game. I'm only here to occasionally provide tips and point out when a tip or statement is obviously wrong or misleading.
     
  42. Kana Himezaki

    Kana Himezaki Semi-Pro

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    I salute your admirable position on this matter.

    When reading your posts, it seems you ALWAYS, ALWAYS have the right idea. But it's hard for me to find out what's right when you never tell what's going on or give tips on how to improve it.

    I guess I'm just looking in the wrong places, huh? I think I'll email you so I don't have to read the drivel of unintelligible posts and get right to the solution, like all these other people seem to be doing.
     
  43. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    I'm studying your boss and good friend Vic's book right now. I'm on page 54 where he talks about the importance of keeping the palm down on the backswing and LEADING WITH THE ELBOW. It's great stuff. You should study it too. Maybe you could get your job back at the academy instead of
    just working for him once in a blue moon on his occassional trip to Irvine.
     
  44. raftermania

    raftermania Banned

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    Where do you get all this hate for Bungalo Bill from? I'm really sick of hearing you berate arguably the most respected person on this board.
     
  45. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    Read this post and you'll see how he started in with me. I don't have to take his S**T or anyone elses. I don't care how many posts he has.
     
  46. Thereallovebone

    Thereallovebone Rookie

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    You can let people bully you if you want. That's your choice. I stand up for myself and if you don't like it SCREW YOU TOO!
     
  47. Grimjack

    Grimjack Banned

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    You shouldn't let yourself be swayed on this point, because you've been right from the get go.

    Yes, it's true that if you want to define some sort of "strike zone" for the western FH, then it's going to be a lot bigger than the "IDEAL strike zone" you were initially remarking on.

    It's also true lots of good players with western FH's will have developed their own preferred places to strike the ball, which may or may not be the most biomechanically efficient.

    But biomechanically, the western's ideal strike zone is a small area that will never range beyond the chest on the low side, or above the chin on the high side. The shape of the human body guarantees this. If this is where you hit your western FHs, with proper form, it's where your body will allow you to hit the most efficient, effective, powerful stroke. It's not the only way to hit one, and it's not even where most are hit...since especially for the tall among us, not all that many balls get up that high to begin with...but neither of those things changes the physical facts that decide where the ball can be most powerfully struck. This high ideal strike zone plays a role in why the SW is generally preferred by taller players.
     
  48. Grimjack

    Grimjack Banned

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    Nobody's bullying you. You worded your initial post terribly, and instead of clarifying, have decided to take issue with the whole world in hopes of defending a ludicrous position.

    Yes, Kana needed a small edit about keeping the elbow in on the forward swing. She made it, and did so without coming off like an ass.

    Yes, BB could have been a tad more tactful in his initial response to your ludicrous claim that a raised elbow is a huge source of power, but he has made his point clear throughout without resorting to a smear campaign.

    Your point -- if in fact there was one worth defending -- seems to have been that the elbow can't stay tucked in all the time, or you'll lose the gravity-generated power a larger backswing-loop can help generate. Okay. That point was eventually made. (Not by you, alas.) Why not just accept that as a job well done and move beyond this?
     
  49. krnboijunsung

    krnboijunsung Semi-Pro

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    My head hurts.
     
  50. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    LOL, what the hell have I been saying? LOL you sound like a very frustrated tennis player. I feel sorry for you.

    Anytime you want to take me on, please let me know.
     

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