forehand shoulder vs forearm/elbow

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by the 10s n00b, Nov 16, 2013.

  1. the 10s n00b

    the 10s n00b Rookie

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    during a windshield wiper forehand what is the role of the shoulder hinge if anything vs the elbow or forearm? is power derived from the hip rotation or shoulder rotation?

    Currently every time I drop my racket to get below the ball there's a straining feeling in my shoulder which has made me wonder if I am dropping the racket below the ball wrong? is it possible that bending the knees is the way to get below the ball?

    Thanks!!!!
     
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  2. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    This thread had a lot of discussion and several reference links on your questions.

    "Hitting-shoulder transversal extension/flexion in forehand", OP, albesca
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=423053&highlight=Chas+Tennis+forehand+elliott&page=2

    Elliott explains that in the take back the shoulders turn back farther than the hips. This angular difference between the hips and shoulders adds stretch to some trunk muscles. That stretch is used in the forward rotation of the swing. Several references are in the thread above. This issue along with the stretch-shortening cycle are discussed in Elliott's book
    Technique Development for Tennis Stroke Production (2009), B. Elliott et al, available only from the ITF store I believe.

    He also discusses the use of internal shoulder rotation in the forehand. ISR is an axial rotation of the upper arm at the shoulder joint. ISR rotates the entire arm - around its axis - when the arm is straight. It often, but not always, is used in the WW forehand according to Elliott's discussion.

    Search Internet: A Roadmap to a Hall-of-Fame Forehand - Part 9: An Anatomical Comparison of the Federer and Djokovic Forehands

    You need to take high speed video of your forehand. 240 fps is a completely adequate rate and 120 fps might be also for the forehand. 60 fps can be very useful also if your camera has a fast shutter so that the motion blur is small. Unfortunately, when 60 fps is put on Youtube or Vimeo it may be reduced to 30 fps by dropping every other frame. But you can examine all frames yourself at home using Quicktime.

    Compare to high speed videos on the internet.
    https://vimeo.com/63687035
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
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  3. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    Ouch, that sounds wrong. I agree with above... you need to video yourself so you can see what it looks like.

    The only way I could see this happening would be if the uncoiling (kinetic chain) was happening incorrectly. Your hips should engage first, then the trunk. Then the turning of the trunk will pull the arm. The shoulder isn't actively involved... i.e. you shouldn't need to do anything with it consciously.

    It sounds like you might be arming it.
     
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  4. Tight Lines

    Tight Lines Professional

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    First, too many questions in your post. Which are you asking about?

    Second, the shoulder issue sounds like a medical issue, not a technique issue. Without a video, it's impossible to provide meaningful help.

    Harry
     
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  5. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    #5
  6. KillerServe

    KillerServe Banned

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    Can people turn their hips independently of the trunk? I'd like to see a video of that, any links?
     
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  7. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    not by much but there is some kind of "separation" i.e. the shoulders lagging behind the hips a little. not by much but it is evident.
     
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  8. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Dojkovic does more than most.
    http://www.tennisoxygen.com/content/view/258/2/

    The trunk is connected to the hips on the bottom and the shoulders on the top. Often the shoulders turn farther back and finish farther forward in the follow through. Elliott says that is a plus for pace.

    Back issues? I'd be careful.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
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  9. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, it's really more of a stretch-shortening cycle that happens if done correctly.

    When the stance is locked and racquet brought back... the first thing that should happen is the back leg should push into the ground engaging the hips. If the body is loose, the hips will cause a stretch-shortening cycle with the trunk and the trunk will turn... which in turn will pull the shoulder and arm along.

    If the trunk is being engaged without the hips being the driving force, then there is going to be a lot of mechanical issues.
     
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