Forehand Topspin Drive

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by KayFactor, Nov 29, 2012.

  1. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    954
    I have to very much disagree.

    It's not a continuum, but two very distinct techniques and biomechanical movements that should not be confused.

    It's supination vs pronation. Trade-off between ball speed and spin vs simultaneous production of both.

    Someone with a semi-western using the Roddick technique vs the Federer technique produce a VERY different looking stroke and very different results.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
    #51
  2. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,987
    Location:
    San Diego
    supination vs pronation? i think you made a mistake there.
     
    #52
  3. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,380
    think I understand what cheese is trying to say between sup vs pro. comparing the two SW and E fh hit with much topspin, in SW contact occurs in more supinated position of the hand than that of E grip by nature of the more rotated grip. IOW, when the racquet face angles are similar at contact, SW hand is slightly more supinated than E hand. going from straight arm to bent arm the hand supinates slightly which is why SW generally has more bent arm for the same reason. and the feel is different as well. that's why E fh people sometimes say push fh because it feels the contact happens more toward pronated hand position while SW is more associated with pull from supinated hand position. sorry a lot of ideas all together but hopefully makes sense.
     
    #53
  4. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,987
    Location:
    San Diego
    that makes more sense. i asked because I'm assuming he knows that both types of fh's involve both supination and pronation during the stroke.
     
    #54
  5. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    954
    Yes, your forearm is going to always supinate as you come through. The amount of pronation vs supination BEFORE that happens (transition from backswing to forward swing) is what I'm referring to.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    vs

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    As for Borami, what you said is true but not what I was getting at. Try comparing SW Roddick technique vs SW Federer technique. They would be very different. (See Roddick vs Nadal, both using SW)
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
    #55
  6. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,380
    k, I see what you mean. more pronation in backswing means more snap in the sup-pro cycle during the forward swing. Dj has quite a bit of pronation in the backswing as well which gives him extra snap during forward swing. so it seems to makes sense.
     
    #56
  7. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,008
    Wow this thread is really quite enlightening for me! The distinction between the 2 types of WW forehand cleared up some stuff in my head. Can't wait to apply it to my own strokes. Keep it coming guys! :)
     
    #57
  8. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,380
    cheese, do you really think Fed uses SW? I think someone using SW trying Feds technique will find it difficult. unless you're nadal and can finish above the head all the time.
     
    #58
  9. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,413
    So first a note, we're talking about producing a modern swing path, not hitting through the ball like with an old school E fh motion. With that said:

    When I just shadow swing here at home one of the biggest things that I notice between a Western and an E. grip is that with the W grip upper arm rotation becomes way more of a factor in producing the swing path around the contact area. With the E. grip it's almost all pronation at contact. Upper arm rotation only comes into play after contact to decelerate the racquet. That upper arm rotation is the "lever" that I believe Will Hamilton was referring to.

    In either case the forearm supinates quite a bit before contact. I think boramiNYC is probably correct in saying that at contact the forearm is more supinated with the W. grip than the E. I would think that this is because with the W. grip you have the upper arm also playing a big role in generating the racquet's swing path while with the E. grip the upward motion at the time of contact is almost all in the forearm. Check out any Fed video.

    All of this still points to a continuum from what I can see. If there are two distinct techniques is there some grip where a player goes from one technique to the other. Can you cite examples that we can check out on youtube?
     
    #59
  10. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    954
    I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I was just using the comparison of a SW grip using the Roddick technique vs a SW using the Federer technique to show that it's the technique rather than the grip that causes the difference.

    No, I'm pretty sure Federer uses a modified eastern grip. Nadal uses some form of semi-western with the Fed technique and you're right that it's difficult to do because it produces a more closed racket face than a typical SW.

    Rkelley:

    Take a SW grip and try pronating vs supinating at the transition between takeback and forward swing. That's one of the defining factors between the two techniques.

    If you want an example of the two, check out Roddick vs Nadal on youtube. I'm sure FYB has some good videos.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
    #60
  11. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,413
    I looked at Nadal vs Roddick.

    Roddick http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-D32RwsD_w
    Nadal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inQvbT8uEGk

    What I saw was that at the transition point between back swing and forward swing the wrist and forearm were in a fairly neutral position on both players. Roddick had a lot a pronation and the beginning of his backswing but by the time the racquet is down and the forward swing began the wrist and forearm were neutral. Likewise, Nadal does this funky supination thing at the beginning of his back swing but by the time the racquet's down the and forward swing is about to start the wrist and forearm are reasonably neutral.

    In both cases the beginning of the forward swing supinates the forearm and loads it up. The forearm then starts to pronate before contact.

    The big difference I saw was that on Nadal's stroke at contact the upward part of the swing path was generated mostly by forearm pronation, whereas with Roddick there's less pronation but more upper arm rotation.

    What do you see?
     
    #61
  12. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    954
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=V-D32RwsD_w#t=13s

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=inQvbT8uEGk#t=10s

    I linked to specific times to pause where both players are about to transition to the forward swing. Note the direction the back of their hand is facing. Nadal's is facing skyward (pronation), Roddick's is facing the side fence (supination).

    That's what I'm talking about.

    If you want more details on it, check out the tennis speed blog.
    http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2011/05/roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part-1.html
     
    #62
  13. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,380
    k, no problem cheese.

    Above Roddick's clip reminds me that everything about Roddick's fh is E fh except he's using SW. Terrible mismatch that doomed his fh. If he had E grip, he would have had a great fh and def still be playing. result of modern SW grip instinct with too much old school coaching. it's a great coaching failure of good ol USA.
     
    #63
  14. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,987
    Location:
    San Diego
    The nadal moment you linked shows nadal still in a supinated position. Nadal's pronation comes later in the swing.

    Forearms pronate. Wrists do not pronate. Pronation can occur from either the elbow or the shoulder joint.

    Also you shouldn't disregard the grip when comparing technique.

    Another factor to be considered is that you are comparing a straight arm vs a bent arm. A straight arm will rely more on pronation than internal shoulder rotation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
    #64
  15. KayFactor

    KayFactor Rookie

    Joined:
    May 21, 2012
    Messages:
    161
    Location:
    Bay Area California
    What do you mean by brush? Bcause I mistake it for literally brushing the ball upwards, creating this lobby topspin effect that is not penetrating at all.

    I'm supposed to attempt hitting through the ball still right, and the brush effect will automatically tact on?

    Is brushing a natural effect when you are swinging from below the ball and through contact?
     
    #65
  16. KayFactor

    KayFactor Rookie

    Joined:
    May 21, 2012
    Messages:
    161
    Location:
    Bay Area California
    Oh by the way, then what does Novak Djokovic do on his WWF?
     
    #66
  17. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,310
    Location:
    Bedford,Massachusetts,US
    A latest blog by tennisspeed addresses related issues

    A latest blog by tennisspeed addresses related issues
    blog.tennisspeed.com blog of Oct 11
     
    #67
  18. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,413
    Interesting note on this, I hit with Cheetah once or twice a week. He uses a fairly Western grip on his fh, while I use a modified Eastern, almost SW grip. We can both hit the ball very hard with lots of spin. We were chatting after a hit last weekend and I commented that I’m always focusing on making sure I get the racquet below the ball and swinging up. I never think about hitting through the ball – that kind of comes for free for me. Cheetah said he does the opposite, he thinks about hitting through the ball, the up part comes for free.

    Cheetah, please correct me if I misspoke for you.
     
    #68
  19. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    3,038
    I also notice in these vids that the pros are using pistol, rather than hammer grips. I'm sure that makes a big difference with how hard they hit the ball?
     
    #69
  20. KayFactor

    KayFactor Rookie

    Joined:
    May 21, 2012
    Messages:
    161
    Location:
    Bay Area California
    This actually makes a lot of sense because of the grips. Hopefully Cheetah can talk about this.
     
    #70
  21. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,380
    Dj has more wrist manipulation or snap than typical SW fh with flatter swing path, bent arm, and more open stance and very even balance with great balance control. his lever turning is more spread out horizontally from arm swing but well controlled.
     
    #71
  22. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,380
    more leverage from spread fingers and safer for wrist too. both control and power are better with pistol due to control of hand grip at impact can contribute to both force transfer and shock absorption.
     
    #72
  23. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,413
    One thing that's helped a lot for me and my more E. grip is to make sure that I keep the racquet more forward on the takeback and keep my wrist and forearm neutral. If I take it back too far it gets very hard to get that “up” feeling, which is where the topspin comes from. Also bending the legs, especially the outside leg, is huge in generating both power and topspin – I suppose that’s true for everyone.
     
    #73
  24. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,987
    Location:
    San Diego
    Yes that's right. I was meaning to post about our convo the last couple of days but I've been insanely busy recently.
     
    #74
  25. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,987
    Location:
    San Diego
    Yes. when you pass that one point it's where the racquet becomes 'disconnected' as they say.
     
    #75
  26. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,987
    Location:
    San Diego
    I'll take a look.
     
    #76
  27. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,784
    By pistol, do you mean their forefinger sticks out and hooks around? I use that a lot myself. I used to think it was bad technique.
     
    #77
  28. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,413
    Yes, that's exactly the feeling - disconnected. Perfect term. My arm and wrist feel really free and the racquet just whips, but I know exactly where they're going. My head is still and eyes locked on the ball.

    Love that feeling when I can get it.
     
    #78
  29. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,310
    Location:
    Bedford,Massachusetts,US
    Blog and JY

    The basic criterion there is,as you know,supination vs pronation
    The classification is different than one of JY
    The blog produces some interesting indirect questions about double handed backhand as well
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
    #79
  30. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,987
    Location:
    San Diego
    wanna hit tonight?
     
    #80
  31. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    954
    Yeah, take a look at the tennis speed blog. I think it explains it better than I ever could.

    All I know is that with my grip (extreme-eastern) the straight arm pronation dependent style works really well.
     
    #81
  32. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,413
    So you're not using much upper arm rotation at contact to generate the swing path, right? The majority of the upper arm rotation comes later, after contact, to decelerate the swing.
     
    #82
  33. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Messages:
    6,441
    Isn't the tennis speed guy the guy that claims that fed and other pros hit intentionally below center so that the racket distorts at contact and "rolls over" the ball?
     
    #83
  34. PhrygianDominant

    PhrygianDominant Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2012
    Messages:
    2,020
    Will needs to do a gonzo forehand tribute course just for tt
     
    #84
  35. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,310
    Location:
    Bedford,Massachusetts,US
    NO

    NO
    xxxxxxxxxxx
     
    #85
  36. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,987
    Location:
    San Diego
    Yes he is.

    +10ch
     
    #86
  37. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Messages:
    6,441
    #87
  38. PhrygianDominant

    PhrygianDominant Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2012
    Messages:
    2,020
    I read the tennisspeed article and was suprised that gonzo's forehand racquetface was more perpendicular to the ground throughout the swing to contact and and contact. Just a comment....
     
    #88
  39. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    954
    Probably why his FH is so streaky and relatively flat.
     
    #89
  40. PhrygianDominant

    PhrygianDominant Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2012
    Messages:
    2,020
    Probably. Closing the racquet face is pretty awkward for me, I don't think I really get it, have to keep practicing.
     
    #90
  41. chico9166

    chico9166 Guest

    As I mentioned, I consider the MTM way of teaching the "modern forehand" to be a bit old school. I have yet to come across a video of oscar where he is demonstrating something other than, essentially, come to the ball slowly and then accelerate the racquet by "pulling up" and "across", (and backwards) to an over the shoulder finish..Please reference a video, where his elbow doesn't "break immediately" and move hard left..

    Ironically, if you want to see how a more modern forehand is taught, look again at the Lansdorp video you posted (that got deleted), and notice what he's trying to get the kid to do.......Which is, shallow the path of hand, (to retain ball velocity) and windshield wipe the hell out of it.(low finish) for spin.
     
    #91
  42. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,447
    I understand...if that is what you know of MTM, but yes... quite ironic since Oscar
    was teaching that about 2 decades before RL.
    I doubt you have his book, but it is on pg 92-93 as well as other places; also
    used like that in several of his vids.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2012
    #92
  43. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,447
    Yes, this makes a lot of sense, as with the heavy western, it does take more
    work to get thru the ball well. Also can tend to explain the 2 differing views on
    this topic. My grip is more like rkelley's and I identify much more with his view
    on it as well.
     
    #93
  44. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Messages:
    6,441
    the racket face is closed passively by the ball rolling down the strings. but this doesn't have any effect on the spin just a result of the upbard brushing.

    this closing is stronger when you hit below center but I think that those highlighted below center hits are actually misshits and not what the pros are striving for (remember fed is framing the ball quite a lot). it just can happen when you swing up so fast and you timing is a little off.

    but if you film 10 fed FHs I guess most of them are actually hit in the center (of course when the ball leaves it will be slightly below center because the strings have brushed upwards but initially the ball will be at center with the racket face being relatively vertical.
     
    #94
  45. PhrygianDominant

    PhrygianDominant Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2012
    Messages:
    2,020
    Now that sounds like gonzo

    Yet another take, interesting.....and I thought the forehand was the easy one. Shows how much I know.
     
    #95
  46. Geology_Rocks!

    Geology_Rocks! Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 19, 2011
    Messages:
    492
    Location:
    Salvador, BA
    Hey guys, just wanna share some ideas,

    I was following the blog and studying all the pronation stuff and tried to add this to my game, here is something I observed, all these players are NOT pronating on the takeback, all they do to achieve the closed racket face is start the takeback by lifting the elbow and keeping the forearm in a neutral position.

    Think about it, if you actually pronate on the takeback the racket tip would point straight to the ground.

    That's all, hold your racket, lift the hitting elbow with a neutral forearm position. By just doing this the closed racket face showed in all the pics will appear, and THEN if you do pronate the racket tip will point to the ground.

    Anyone agrees?
     
    #96
  47. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,784
    They don't pronate on the takeback. But I think they supinate at the end of the takeback and the beginning of the forward swing, and then pronate..
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2012
    #97
  48. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,008
    I believe the supination occurs at the start of the forward swing. Supination at take back is detrimental to the stretch shortening cycle, from what I understand of it, and it's the thing I've been trying to remove from my own swing. The way I do it is by being aware that my thumb is down during take back. Some people like palm down or knuckles to the sky- for some reason thumb down clicked for me.
     
    #98
  49. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,987
    Location:
    San Diego
    Nobody agrees.

    What do you call this?
    [​IMG]
     
    #99
  50. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,784
    At the start of the forward swing and sometimes at the end of the take back when the Nike swoosh starts to curve around, i.e., in the transition period between back and forward?
     

Share This Page