Forehand Topspin Drive

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by KayFactor, Nov 29, 2012.

  1. Geology_Rocks!

    Geology_Rocks! Semi-Pro

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    Cheetah, look at his elbow pointing to the right, his forearm is in a neutral position.

    His thumb/palm is also a good reference point, it's parallel to the court surface. Again, if he pronates from that position the racket would be upside down, with the tip pointing to the ground.

    For example, stretch your arm to the side while facing the net. If you pronate your thumb points down and palm faces back fence, if you supinate, thumb points up and palm faces forward, and finally, if you keep it neutral, the thumb will point forward and the palm will face the ground, this is the position Fed shows.

    ''Nobody agrees'' sorry, wasn't aware that you speak for the whole board.
     
  2. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    not incorrect but lifting elbow is due to internal shoulder rotation which usually works together with forearm pronation. actually it's possible to take back with just ISR without forearm pronation as you describe but pronation adds a tiny bit more ISR and a little more of the sling shot effect during the forward swing.
     
  3. Geology_Rocks!

    Geology_Rocks! Semi-Pro

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    Yeah, I'm not familiar with all the terms, ISR it is.

    The thing is, taking the racket back by using only ISR as you say seems to produce the exact takeback shape of the pros. All pronation seems to do is rotate the racket counter clock wise. (for a right handed)
     
  4. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    how so?
    .....
     
  5. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

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    I'm pretty sure nobody is going to agree with you there. It's clear that they're pronating at the end of their takeback when they're about to start swinging forward.

    I don't see how you could argue otherwise unless you have some sort of confusion about the definition of pronation.

    I have no idea what you mean when you say pronating during the takeback causes the racket tip to point towards the ground. I pronate during my takeback, it closes the racket face. It doesn't change which direction the top of the racket is facing, it's still pointing skyward.

    I think you're confused about what is a neutral position. You're treating what is pronation as neutral, and treating what is actually neutral as supination.

    What you say would be pronating is physically impossible to do while still hitting a proper FH. If you pronate that much you're going to be hitting the ball with the wrong side of the racket.

    If someone is truly neutral, their hand is going to look like Del Potro's. If they're supinating, it's going to look like Andreev or Roddick. If they're pronating, check out Federer or Nadal or Djokovic.


    Neutral vs Pronation:

    [​IMG]



    Neutral vs Supination:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2012
  6. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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  7. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    I think the idea is to be neutral at the end of the take back. Don't consciously supinate. The supination occurs because of the forward swing. See below.

    This is what I try do and what I see pros doing. However you get there, right before the start of the forward swing the forearm and wrist are neutral. The beginning of the forward swing supinates the forearm and lays the wrist back. You don't actively move the forearm and wrist into those positions. The legs, hips, and shoulders starting the swing supinates the forearm and lays back the wrist. Then as the forward swing occurs the forearm naturally pronates and the wrist extends.

    See that picture of Fed posted by Cheetah about 10 posts back? See how his forearm and wrist are relaxed and neutral - not pronated, supinated, flexed or extended? That's exactly the position I try to get my racquet and arm into before I start my swing.
     
  8. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

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    I think you're confused here. That picture Cheetah posted is an example of Fed pronating at the end of his takeback. You want to be pronating, not neutral. From there, the forearm naturally supinates as you swing forward.
     
  9. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    i think we need some term fixing...

    wrists don't pronate. the forearm pronates either by elbow joint or isr.
    the wrist can be in radial/ulnar deviation and extended or flexed.
    the wrist can be deviated or flexed/extended while the forearm is pronated or supinated.

    so you can have an arm structure that has pronation w/ neutral wrist.
    or you can have pronation with flexed wrist
    or you can have supination with extended and radial deviated wrist
    or supination w/ neutral wrist
    or you can with this or you can go with that
    etc etc
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2012
  10. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    While it happens often, I don't think I'm confused in this instance regarding the Fed photo. If his forearm were fully pronated in that photo the racquet would be pointed nearly at the camera. If fully supinated the racquet would be point back to the rear. In the picture the racquet is out to the side, so his forearm is approximately in the center of its range of motion, probably somewhat on the pronation side. I think you're better off thinking of the forearm as neutral, not pronated. You can see from the lack of muscle definition that his arm is fairly relaxed.

    Likewise the wrist is roughly centered between flexed and extended.

    I agree that the forward swing will naturally supinate the forearm (and extend or layback the wrist).
     
  11. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

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    What do you mean by the racket would be pointed at the camera? The tip of the racket? The racket face? The buttcap?
     
  12. Geology_Rocks!

    Geology_Rocks! Semi-Pro

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    Yes, I know what pronation means.

    I won't insist on the issue because I don't think I can describe it better than i did at post 101.

    I'll say it just one more time, all the ''pronated'' and closed racket faces pics can be achieved by ISR only and a not pronated forearm.

    BTW, on the Delpo/Novak comparisson, consider that they use different grips(close to eastern and western).

    Imagine Novak's racket face rotated around 80° to the left to simulate a eastern grip like Delpo's, this would make them pretty similar. Would you agree now that both guys have neutral forearm positions before the forward swing?

    The only thing those angles on the pictures show is the variation in their FH grips. Nothing to do with forearm pronation/supination.
     
  13. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    ... despite the fact that I posted videos clearly showing the pronation occuring?
     
  14. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Wow, Rafa's pronation is pretty pronounced at the end of takeback.
     
  15. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    If Federer pronated his forearm (i.e. rotated his forearm about the axis in-line with his forearm) to its maximum extent the tip of the racquet that he's holding would be pointing towards the camera and down.

    Does that make sense to you?
     
  16. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

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    Not at all.

    Rotating his forearm wouldn't change the angle between the racket and his forearm, so there's no possible way for the tip to change where it's pointing.

    Agree to disagree, but the way I'm describing it definitely works really well for me. Pronating with purely ISR would make no sense. Just try it... It's pretty obvious that they would do the motion the most effective way possible.
     
  17. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Is this the pic we're talking about? Can't see how the tip would point at the camera with more pronation...?

    [​IMG]
     
  18. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

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    Exactly. I don't see it.

    We're defining the direction of the tip as the same direction a vector pointing along the handle would be pointed, I'm assuming. Pronation would only rotate the racket around that axis, it wouldn't change its direction at all.

    If Fed wasn't pronating, a vector pointing upwards perpendicular to the plane of the back of his hand would be pointing backwards, rather than skywards.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2012
  19. toly

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    Definition – Forearm pronation is counterclockwise forearm rotation.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  20. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    Rotating his forearm about the axis along his forearm (aka pronation or supination) by its very definition, would require any body perpendicular to that axis, namely his racquet in the picture, to change orientation. If Fed pronates his forearm in the picture, the racquet's tip (the axis from the handle to the tip) will go from pointing to the side to pointing at the camera and slightly down. I may not be communicating my meaning well, but it's not something you can disagree with.

    I agree that this motion would not change the angle that the racquet makes with the forearm. Flexing or extending his wrist, or radial or ulnar deviation would do that, but not pronation or supination.

    Since his arm is almost straight rotating his upper arm at the shoulder about the axis along his upper arm (aka ISR), would have a similar effect on the racquet's orientation as pronation/supination.

    Whatever you want to call it, I personally try to get my racquet and arm in the position that Fed has in the picture.
     
  21. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    ..................
     
  22. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

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    I think you might be having a hard time getting a feel for where his racket is in relation to his forearm from this camera angle. Check out the side view.

    Pronation isn't going to make his racket tip point at the camera. All it's doing is closing his racketface towards the ground.

    [​IMG]
     
  23. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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  24. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    OP, above seems to be a pretty good post. Did it help you along with the other comments along these lines?
     
  25. Geology_Rocks!

    Geology_Rocks! Semi-Pro

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    No. Pronation would not rotate the racket around the handle axis, Not without ulnar deviation, and there is no ulnar deviation there, his wrist is neutral.

    The closed racket face is caused by ISR. Please, from the ready position holding the racket with a eastern grip lift your right elbow to your side. The racket will stay parallel to the ground with a closed face, correct?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkUSTi4U7Io

    Watch Monfils, he really exaggerates this movement, watch how his elbow goes up.
     
  26. Geology_Rocks!

    Geology_Rocks! Semi-Pro

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    If you hold a racket in front of you with your right hand and pronate what happens?

    Do you disagree on what I said about the Delpo Novak comparison?
     
  27. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    pronation only closes the racket face if your forearm and racket are in line.

    however since you grip that racket in an angle and on top of that lay the wrist back the pronation will swing the racket around the long axis of the forearm creating upward movement.

    if you use a conti grip pronation can even contribute to the forward acceleration of the racket.
     
  28. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Pictorial definition of pronation

    1.Does it apply to a lefthander?
    2.Does it apply literally for all three strokes:forehand,backhand and serve?
     
  29. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Definition of supination

    Is the definition below an acceptable one?
    ---->
    Supination
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Jump to: navigation, search

    Supination is a position of either the forearm or foot. When the arms are unbent and at the sides, the forearm is in supination when the palm faces to the front (anteriorly), or faces up. Supination in the foot occurs when a person appears "bow-legged" with their weight supported primarily on the lateral side of their feet (5th Metatarsal).[citation needed]

    The hand is supine in the anatomical position (i.e., palms facing up during autopsy). This action is performed by the Biceps brachii and the Supinator muscle.

    Supination is the opposite of pronation.
     
  30. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    1. No.
    2. Yes.
     
  31. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Post #129 is more interesting

    Post #129 is more interesting
     
  32. toly

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    I don’t like Wikipedia definition. There are too many useless words and I believe Supination is not position, but motion. :)
     
  33. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Elbow pronation

    Could you provide the definition of ELBOW SUPINATION ?
    I believe the term is used in blog#7 of www.log.tennisspeed.com

    So your definition would be:
    The ELBOW SUPINATION is the motion which ....
    Please feel dots

    Questions:
    1.Does Sharapova have ELBOW SUPINATION? (for forehand) or does she supinate?

    2.Does Federer have ELBOW SUPINATION? (for forehand)

    3.Does Del Potro have ELBOW SUPINATION (for forehand)

    If #1,#2 and #3 answered correctly I will send you a chocolate bar by E-mail
    Possible answers:
    a) yes
    b) no
    c) maybe
    d) Julian,you are such a pain
    e)other to be specified
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  34. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    Check out the pictures that toly posted about forearm and wrist movements. This is my understanding of the definitions.

    In the picture of Fed that you posted the racquet is making very roughly a 90° angle with the forearm, true? That means that the racquet, more specifically the line from the handle to the tip, is in a plane that is normal to the forearm axis. Let's define the positive direction of the forearm axis from the hand to the elbow. Let's define the positive direction of the racquet axis as from the handle to the tip. Pronation would therefore be a positive rotation (right hand rule) of the racquet axis about the forearm axis.

    Because racquet axis and the forearm axis are normal, neither pronation or supination will cause a rotation about racquet axis, which would be required to open or close the racquet face.

    In the picture you provided a human should be able to pronate their forearm about 90° from the position shown. The racquet would be point more toward the camera, though in this case not at the camera. In your picture Fed's racquet is not quite in the same position as in the other Fed picture. His upper arm as rotated so that the racquet is pointing a bit more backwards.

    Please remember that I am making some approximations on some of these positions. His racquet and forearm are not exactly normal (90°), but they are certainly not in-line. His forearm isn't pointed straight down but rather at an angle to the ground, so the plane normal to the axis of the forearm is not parallel to the ground.

    Sorry for all of the engineering/math speak, but I don't know how else to unambiguously communicate my meaning.
     
  35. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Post #133

    Do you know answers to questions in post #133?
    I have one chocolate bar left
     
  36. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Suspense is killing me

    If we go couple frames forward to you think:
    a) a racket will be more closed
    b) a racket will be more open
    c) a racket will stay the same
    d)Federer will shank a ball
    A bottle of champagne available for you-one left
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  37. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Maybe out of my league here, since I rarely use terms like this since most
    students have NO IDEA in this area of terms, but...

    aren't we really talking more ISR instead of pronation?
     
  38. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    IMO, Elbow Supination is forearm supination.

    Forearm Supination is forearm clockwise rotation about forearm longitude axis.
     
  39. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    No chocolate

    You did NOT answer questions #1,#2 and #3
    Terrible,just terrible
    Do you think serve is supinated or pronated or both?
    A can of caviar left
     
  40. Geology_Rocks!

    Geology_Rocks! Semi-Pro

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    rkelley, I think we are seeing the same thing (thank you!)

    5263, yes, there is no pronation during the takeback.
     
  41. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    look at your video of monfil here @ :08s. His elbow stays in roughly the same location. His bicep doesn't move. Yet his forearm rotates which causes the racquet face to close.
    At :08s his racquet is pointing up. elbow is in postion E. Bicep is in position B.
    At :10s his racquet is facing down. elbow is still in position E. Bicep is still in position B.
    That's pronation. (and not from isr)
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  42. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    to be more precise, it should be hand pronation or supination. no wrist, no forearm, no elbow.

    and for this discussion to go anywhere neutral position needs to be precisely defined and agreed upon. which is not easy at all cuz by just turning head the hands in effect are not in neutral any more.
     
  43. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I meant at the curve of the Nike swoosh, when the racket is still technically moving backwards but it has started curving towards the front.
     
  44. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Just for the record

    Tennisspeed uses the term "elbow pronation"
     
  45. Geology_Rocks!

    Geology_Rocks! Semi-Pro

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    Nope it's not, his forearm position is constant.

    The racket face closes because of ISR. As his elbow goes up the internal rotation begins.
     
  46. toly

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    Sharapova front of the forearm is facing sky. To bring the forearm into this position she has to supinate forearm almost as much as possible.

    [​IMG]

    Federer and Del Potro apply eastern grip, so they supinate much less than Sharapova (western grip).
     
  47. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    No. Look again. Not at 8s. Monfil uses a bent arm, not a straight arm. That means if he were using isr there at 8s you would see his elbow fly out behind him in conjuction with the racquet face closing. but it doesn't. it stays in the same position and his bicep doesn't move. That's forearm pronation not isr.

    If you have a bent arm and you use isr the elbow will move. the racquet is facing up. the elbow doesn't move. then the racquet is facing down. clear as day.

    edit: actually it happens at 9secs
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  48. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    elbow pronation doesn't make any sense. in medicine definitions of pronation and supination are always irt hand. so what that guy uses the wrong term that doesn't make sense?
     
  49. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Federer and Del potro

    Do Federer and Del potro pronate?
    You may go to read blog #7 www.blog.tennisspeed.com
    but reading will cost 50% of credit

    Tennisspeed said that Sharapova has elbow supination ( or hand supination to avoid annoying other readers here)
    Back to sleep after eating too much chocolate
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  50. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    I think Fed and delpo supinate just as much basically to the limit for the ssc. but their wrists are certainly more extended and arm more straight than Sha.
     

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