Forehand video analysis

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Ali Abdullah, Aug 23, 2007.

  1. Ali Abdullah

    Ali Abdullah Rookie

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    I made a video with my cell phone of some casual forehand strokes . I've made quite a few threads on forehand questions so you might wanna check out those threads as well before commenting on my forehand. The video quality is poor and my hitting partner isnt so consistent as well but this is just to give you an idea of my forehand and ill upload a proper video if you find it necessary because uploading a video with Pakistani Internet isnt so easy :D

    I would like you to pay particular attention on the laying back of my wrist and follow through.I use a babolat aeropro drive with a semi-western grip and my height is almost 6 i suppose. Hope to see some positive comments on fixing my forehand blues .



    Video 1 = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amFmje9xadE
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2007
    #1
  2. smoothtennis

    smoothtennis Hall of Fame

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    Down to business...

    The first thing I will say, is that forehand is not too bad, so good news there.
    Second things, the wrist laying back. I'll want to hear what others say, but based on your swing style, which looks pretty modern, I believe you are pre-cocking that wrist way too early. Notice your takeback goes well behind your back, with the wrist supinated back, BEFORE you start your forward swing.

    Rick Macci says to not lay it back fully before you initiate your forward swing. Let it lay back as a result of the forward initiation of the stroke, and it will have much more spring as it comes through the contact zone. I am working on this very thing myself. My takeback was just like yours, and now I am feeling a huge difference. Also, your takeback will naturally become more compact if you do this vs. having it way behind your back before you start coming forward.

    Good luck!
     
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  3. cj011

    cj011 New User

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    Great tip!!! I use to lay it my wrist back when I was taking it back. You are taking away alot of spin off the ball because you are not snapping through your stroke. Let's compare the two:
    Let's say you standing upright with your right arm out in front like you are going to shake someone's hand. From there you take you arm back like you would for a forehand. With your stroke you would be leading with your hand going back, elbow in and hand way out there. What you want is your elbow more out and you hand in. That will allow your arm to not be so bent during your swing. There is an ugly nasty trend going on in tennis with the elblow down low and the hand up high at contact with the ball.
     
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  4. habib

    habib Professional

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    The elbow out and the hand in? What? I guess Haas and Gonzalez haven't been doing it right...
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2007
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  5. cj011

    cj011 New User

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    What I meant by the elbow is the that it is so far down that is causes the palm to open up and start facing the sky (if you are not holding a racquet). I do believe that you can have the elbow dropped as long the the palm can either be straight up and down or angled slightly. Also, when did Gonzalez become an example of consistency and placement? He can develope amazing power, but can be picked apart from the baseline.

    I may as well say it here, I have a big problem with heavy topsin forehands that focus only lifting low to high and do not drive through the ball. I focus primarily on get the joints lined up in a stroke so that they support themselves or can lock in there strongest position. If the elbow is to far down at contact because of these god forsaken western grips and pulling the hand out first, then there is less support for the arm. Try having somebody push against your arm with you elbow down far enough that your hand begins to open up and pull back versus you elbow down with your palm angled foreward between 70 to 45 degress. You will be suprised at the difference in support. Yes there can be individual examples of personal excellence but they are only individual examples.
     
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  6. Ali Abdullah

    Ali Abdullah Rookie

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    Thanks for the replies.
    So you guys are basically saying that i shouldnt keep my wrist so laid back at the start of my swing. I should lay it back a little and then leave it relaxed for some laying back at the start of the forward swing which will happen automatically . Ill work on that and let you know.

    Any comments on my follow through? Am i driving through the ball?
     
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  7. cj011

    cj011 New User

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    Nope your not driving the ball. When you extend back, you want your arm to swing around and out with your hand a constant distance away from your body from tack back to contact. From there it may pull across depending on your stroke
     
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  8. Ali Abdullah

    Ali Abdullah Rookie

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    What do you mean by "out" i get the around part. What am i doing on my forehand which is causing me not to drive ? Is that also due to the laid back wrist?
     
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  9. smoothtennis

    smoothtennis Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, I watched again, just for my own peace of mind, in dolling out advice. Definately don't lay that wrist back so early. That racket head should not go behind your body at any time during your takeback in my opinion. It is quite easy to see if this is happening, by doing shadow swings, and taking a quick vid of yourself.

    I gotta tell you, since I have made this very same change I am suggesting to you, which I got from Rick Macci in his forehand video...three huge things have happened instantly - so much so I can't even believe it.

    1. My forehand consistency has skyrocketed. I can hit so many in a row now compared to what I used to hit, it is silly!
    2. I have so much more spin on the ball now, I am still not believing it is true.
    3. I can finally clean-out a slow paced ball, putting pace and spin on it---almost a winner.

    The best part by far is this: I am using less effort than ever before to do this.

    CJ011 said:
    I find this to be exactly the case when the wrist is layed back too early. My partner also made this change, and his spin increased very noticably. Although I wouldn't describe it as snapping the wrist throught he stroke. It preloads, laid back on forward intitiation, and stays bent (double bend) up to contact, and then natually rolls over (pronates) after contact. It is not something you force. It is the natural uncoiling of the good preparation and loading.

    The one thing I will say...is all this happens so fast it is hard to break it down sometimes.

    As far as hitting through the ball, honestly, I don't see a big problem there. It is not great video, but to me, it appears you are driving pretty well through the ball. I know this can be subjective. But I have seen guys 'fanning' the ball, all spin, no pace, and I don't see you doing that.
     
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  10. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    #10
  11. cj011

    cj011 New User

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    guys I have to take pictures this weekend. I have done alot of talking and need to do a better job expalining
     
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  12. cj011

    cj011 New User

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    pushing wins, you're a pretty good player. Well first off, you are lazy on your preperation on your forehand. You just sit there and lean back. Alot of those shot you could have been aggresive with your footwork and taken the ball up higher. Almost every ball you let drop to almost by your knee. You will then be trying to constantly lift the ball over the net and get it to drop again. That is why most juniors struggle against better players. While you guys look to lift, that causes the ball to float or sit. Then any player that likes high balls will attach right away and you have to win the match from being defensive.

    Can you click a video that the camera angle is facing you from the front. I think I may see something small, but I am not running my big mouth anymore if I am not sure
     
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  13. Ali Abdullah

    Ali Abdullah Rookie

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    Thank God. I really thought i wasnt driving through the ball enough and that caused the lack of pace in my shots in comparison to some really good players. One more thing? Hopefully im not using my arm alot and using my shoulders for my shots? Cause alot of people have told me that im arming the ball when im not playing good..
     
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  14. Ali Abdullah

    Ali Abdullah Rookie

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    Wait i forgot cj011's post. He said im not driving through the ball. Im confused now. And cj011 could you elaborate on that swing out part as i mentioned in an earlier post?
     
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  15. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Your swing is OK, you have no drive because you are hitting off your back foot and pulling up off the ball! 80% of your problems are from the waist down. Stay on the ground and get your weight forward into the shot not going back and up.

    J
     
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  16. AceofBase

    AceofBase Rookie

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    Yes, its like what they all say your wrist. If I were you try the same way how you hit but with a western grip going up and down brushing the ball not left to right. I think that would fix you more with a western grip cause with a western grip you dont move you wrist after the point of contact and plus its will get you starting to loosen up your wrist too.
     
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  17. Ali Abdullah

    Ali Abdullah Rookie

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    okay i've changed my swing a bit according to the comments over here. Ill make a video today and upload it tomorrow or day after tomorrow.

    J011yroger your reply pushing_wins was almost as if you were commenting on my video because alot of coaches have been telling me this as well.

    I would appreciate it if comments on others videos be kept in there own thread.
     
    #17
  18. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    No prob, and sorry on my part.

    As far as your own vid/forehand. Something I don't think anyone else has mentioned.

    How tight are you holding the racquet?

    It looks like you are holding it too tightly and your arm is too stiff.

    You should hold the racquet just tightly enough for it to not fall out of your hand.

    J
     
    #18
  19. Ali Abdullah

    Ali Abdullah Rookie

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    Yes i do have the tendency to grip my racquet too tightly when im trying to either hit a winner or when im not getting a good feel on my forehand. I've heard that you should relax your hand and arm on the backswing but grip it tightly on the forward part. Is that the way to go?


    Im still trying to upload my new video with all things takin into consideration. Got some virus issues on the computer.
     
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  20. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Nope, loose and smooth the whole way, otherwise you rob yourself of power and spin.

    J
     
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  21. smoothtennis

    smoothtennis Hall of Fame

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    Pushing Wins - Yeah bro, I saw it earlier, forgot to check this thread. Hey, you have a nice looking stroke as others commented, and yes you weight is going up and backwards most of the time. Stay down with the ball, hit forward, and set your feet and 'platform' solid before you strike the ball. Don't gyrate around at contact. Stay down, stay directly on the ball with your intent and stroke right through the thing with your balance well set.

    Do not lean back, do not step back, do not come up so much, and your forehand will have real drive and power, not to mention better spin.
     
    #21
  22. smoothtennis

    smoothtennis Hall of Fame

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    Macci Video is a USTPA lesson on the Tennis Channel. It is running this month on and off. This one is the first one I have seen that covers what I like to call the modern forehand. It is excellent.
     
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  23. smoothtennis

    smoothtennis Hall of Fame

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    Completely agree here. The more tension you have in the muscles, the less power actually transfers into the ball. Same in martial arts, golf, baseball, etc.

    You have to find that happy balance through practice and awareness. I still have a bad tendency myself to hit with tightned wrist and grip on my forehand. Difficult habit to break for sure.
     
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  24. drake

    drake Semi-Pro

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    Too much take back, too early on the laid back wrist and loose grip. Excellent replies from all posters.
     
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  25. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    thanks for the analysis

    i agree with everything you said, i do feel more power when i stay down and through the shot.

    what about loading and exploding? am i overdoing it? my center of balancing is going in the wrong directions??
     
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  26. Ali Abdullah

    Ali Abdullah Rookie

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    okay dude you r getting on my nerves now.Please keep questions on your video in your own thread.
     
    #26
  27. smoothtennis

    smoothtennis Hall of Fame

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    Awww C'mon Ali - we are all one happy family here right...? :mrgreen:
     
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  28. smoothtennis

    smoothtennis Hall of Fame

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    Bingo - loading ok, exploding in the wrong direction. Even try not exploding at all, just think 'uncoil into the ball'. Don't make it contrived.
     
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  29. counterfeit25

    counterfeit25 Rookie

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    LOL thread hijacker!
     
    #29
  30. Ali Abdullah

    Ali Abdullah Rookie

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    Okay i've uploaded another video. In this video ive tried not to lay back my wrist on the backswing and let it get layed back on the forward itself. It doesnt seem so prominent in the video but i had a totally different feel on my shots so i know i was doing something different. I was not getting a good feel on my shots.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8j4AeBd1Xs

    Now today while playing i tried to drive thru the ball and my game started clicking. I didnt use a very low to high swing. I was getting much more pace on the ball and i could even control it better and i wasnt mis hitting the ball which has been a big problem of mine. I couldnt make a video of it but ill do that tomorrow.
    Do you think im using to much of a low to high swing and not driving thru the ball in this video? and are my shoulders opening to soon? and do i still have that wrist issue?
     
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  31. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    no change at all

    still as gay looking as before
     
    #31
  32. VaBeachTennis

    VaBeachTennis Semi-Pro

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    You are looking pretty good there Ali. It seems that you made your stroke a little more compact and efficient. As far as Pushingwins , I think you guys can BOTH learn on the same thread, as you both have some similiarities (from the little bit of video I saw of Pushingwins) in your strokes. Good luck with your game.
     
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  33. VaBeachTennis

    VaBeachTennis Semi-Pro

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    LOL! Be nice guys! We are here to learn and exchange ideas! No need for a urination contest.
     
    #33
  34. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    yeah

    i also have a gay WTA loop
     
    #34
  35. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Ali...you up for an experiment?

    Get someone with a hopper of balls to feed you.

    Hit the ball hard, and cleanly and try to hit the back fence on the fly, in a straight line. No arc, hit the back fence with a straight flat ball.

    Don't flail at the ball or swing from your heels, just use a smooth level powerful swing.

    After about 20 of them, add enough topspin to bring them down into the court.

    It looks as if you are concentrating too much on generating topspin and not enough on driving the ball and hitting it cleanly.

    J
     
    #35
  36. Ali Abdullah

    Ali Abdullah Rookie

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    yes thats what i was afraid ov. Ill try this drill tomorrow morning.
     
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  37. Ali Abdullah

    Ali Abdullah Rookie

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    let me just ignore you ......
     
    #37
  38. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Sometimes it works for people, and sometimes it doesn't. But it is worth the hour to give it a shot. Because if you keep trying to get more drive in your ball, your mind will keep you tentative about hitting the ball out. But if you start out drilling the back fence on a line, then you have the drive you need.

    J
     
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  39. Ali Abdullah

    Ali Abdullah Rookie

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    Summary

    Okay i'd like to post a summary of questions that i would like to ask about my forehands and what i've done to my forehand according to the posts here so far...i use a semi western grip and babolat aero pro drive ..but im playing with wilson K factor in the first and 3rd video for some reasons.

    This is my first video that i posted here :
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amFmje9xadE

    The second video that i posted was after altering my swing to have a less layed back wrist at the start of the swing and lay it back more on the forward part . The video :
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8j4AeBd1Xs

    Now the Third Video is of me hitting flat balls.Another person is throwing balls at me instead of having a live ball drill in this video .Link is :
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5nIHREjYe4

    Now the questions i'd like to ask :
    1- The same question. My wrist laying back. I fear that i lay it back to early or i lay it back to much or something. If i dont lay it back early i really dont get any feel on my shots.

    2-I mis hit alot of balls in the first video with the whole laid back wrist thing.A little less in the 2nd video and very very less in the 3rd video where im trying to hit flat balls.

    3-In the first and second video i fear that i'm using to much of a low to high swing which is reducing alot of pace on the shots and making me not hit thru the ball.

    4-Do i open my shoulders too early?

    5-My weight is not being transferred in to the ball and instead going left.

    6-Am i arming the ball or using my shoulders?

    7-Is my backswing and forward swing okay?

    8-I play excellent tennis one day and the other day i fail to even connect one ball properly on the forehand.

    9-Im not bending so much i think but thats because this is casual hitting.

    10- Any other thing that you might think im doing wrong or need working on.

    I guess these are all the questions...I hope you guys can take some time out and reply to atleast some of these.
     
    #39
  40. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Work on your takeback on the forehand. The racquet face goes well behind your head towards your left side. Keep the racquet head on the same side of the body (right side) on the takeback.
     
    #40
  41. Ali Abdullah

    Ali Abdullah Rookie

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    In the second video i posted :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8j4AeBd1Xs ( maybe you'd like to check it)i tried not to let the racquet face go behind my head towards the left side and i also tried not to lay back the wrist but after seeing the video i can see that it wasnt so effective.It was much better then the videos you quoted but still not good enough.

    Do i have to shorten my swing so that racquet face doesnt go behind my head or is it the wrist problem? I dont think its the wrist problem because i saw VAKULENKO play today at the US open and i think she has a cocked wrist at the start of the swing like me and she takes her racket behind her head in the backswing. Im confused.I think del porto also has a similar swing.
     
    #41
  42. Mountain Ghost

    Mountain Ghost Semi-Pro

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    Your Forehand

    Keep your shoulders up and don’t bend over from the waist so much at the beginning of your stroke. The way you start a rally is an exaggeration, but quite indicative of what you are doing on most of your forehands. Look at the very beginning of “Video 1” . . . to start the rally you bend your right shoulder down so it’s leaning way over your right foot, and then you straighten up during the swing. In effect, you are practicing a weight distribution and transfer that is not helping you while you are actually playing.

    Don’t start the rally bending over, and as you approach the ball during the point, visualize “leading” with your hips, which should help you to keep them under your shoulders.

    MG
     
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  43. Ali Abdullah

    Ali Abdullah Rookie

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    Thats a really good point that you've noted. Ill work on that. Do the shoulders have to be kept aligned with the hips and legs even when you are hitting from a closed stance? back should be straight?
     
    #43
  44. Mountain Ghost

    Mountain Ghost Semi-Pro

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    Shoulders-Hips Alignment

    The shoulders and the hips will each rotate a different amount during the coiling and uncoiling, so you should not force an “alignment” . . . but they should be rotating on the same (or nearly the same) vertical axis.

    MG
     
    #44
  45. Ali Abdullah

    Ali Abdullah Rookie

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    one more thing..I dont understand how to lead with my hips.As in turn my hips first then shoulders and arm goes with the shoulder?
     
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  46. Mountain Ghost

    Mountain Ghost Semi-Pro

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    “Leading” With The Hips

    I’m not talking about when to turn (or rotate) ANY component there, but how to “feel” keeping your hips forward and under your shoulders, so you won’t be bending over at the waist.

    I could have said visualize your rear end not sticking out in back. “Leading” with the hips is the same thing.

    MG
     
    #46
  47. Ali Abdullah

    Ali Abdullah Rookie

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    okay thats it..i quit...ive tried almost everything you guys told me but sadly none of them really made any difference...thanks for the input though..i think my problem lies in my take back of the swing but then i see players like del porta and vakulenko who have similar forehand styles as me(atleast i think so) and it works for them.
    Im just gonna start being a pusher now.Put the ball in play and play with a very lose grip . I dont think i was meant for hard core hitting....even though when i do start hitting well..i hit big...
    Though if anyone still finds a point that he thinks may help me alot..I would still want to hear that.
     
    #47
  48. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Ali,

    You really only need to work on your takeback for now. It will take you some time to incorporate a good backswing that will work on all court surfaces to help you grow further in tennis.

    Developing an improved backswing will take time, patience, and practice on all of your shots and needs to be automatic to the point where you feel comfortable with it.

    You are at a level with your forehand where you need precise coaching because your forehand is in an advanced stage. It does not need major changes. It does need minor tweaking. But the tweaking will not happen over night as your forehand is well engrained. So a minor tweak will take a lot of practice and a lot of patience for you to become automatic with it.

    Additionally, improving your court movement, speed, deep ball recognition, short ball recognition, conditioning, tactics to open the court, patience to work the point, will need to be developed by a good coach that works with you directly which is the main over emcompassing area you should be concentrating on.

    Here is a way to help you get an idea of where your racquet needs to be on your backswing:

    1. Stand perpendicular to the net. The plane of your body should be facing the right side fence.

    2. With your toes lined up,imagine a straight line going from the net, touching both toes, and then to the back fence.

    3. When you take the racquet back, the head of the racquet should not cross that line behind you. That is the reference point for your takeback. If the racquet head crosses that line behind you, you are risking inconsistency.

    With this shortened backswing you will need to use your body and legs slightly more in the shot. Your balance will improve but it will take time to "get it down" so you don't have to think about it and get it to feel "normal".
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2007
    #48
  49. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    bb

    why "inconsistency" when u cross the line?
     
    #49
  50. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    dude

    you are a hog but dont give up

    do u feel like you have to open up the racquet when u hit the ball?

    thats how i feel, thats why my wrist flops open right away


    you have to get that idea out of your head

    it starts with the mental picture of how u contact the ball, thats what shapes your backswing

    racquet is closed until it comes forward

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paMqn38Phro&mode=related&search=
     
    #50

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