Forehand Video

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by MasturB, Jan 19, 2011.

  1. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    ^^ feels like we are going in circles... I thought I answered you regarding baseball a few days ago.

    'letting the arm do nothing' is a feel that a player should try to achieve if he doesn't understand the so-called 'kinetic chain' yet... in actual reality the arm/hand will react to the increased centrifugal force.... therefore you often hear people say that the hands are 'reactive'.

    you don't have to believe my 'assumptions'... this gravity element exists in different people's swings to a different degree, some more, some less.... some will benefit from all the mumble jumble, some may not.
     
  2. papa

    papa Hall of Fame

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    Although I respect Tricky's advice/observations, I'm somewhat surprise at this. Maybe the key word here is "baseline" and the obvious word left out is "one-hander". It also probable that I've missed something along the way in this discussion - wouldn't be the first time.

    However, the 1HBH is being hit now with greater frequency from an open stance although a tad more difficult to control. Some don't do it at all while a growing number are incorporating the shot into their arsenal. Its also being hit more and more (1HBH) from a neutral position to cut down on the recovery time.
     
  3. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    No, you didn't answer me about baseball. You made a reference to a golf coach using a baseball swing as an analogy. That hardly explains the obvious contradicting advice. It also does nothing to prove that the golf stuff applies to tennis.

    Also, you're missing the point about the baseball thing. The point is that tips are specific to certain sports for a reason: they work in that particular game. You can't just take tips from any kind of swing and apply them to tennis. If these concepts are the key to tennis, why are they golf tips and not tennis tips?

    Alright, so now you're putting the word assumptions in quotes like it's not correct. What would you say your statements are? There is certainly no evidence that they're correct. You've admitted that you can't find a single video of a credible tennis coach giving similar tips.

    Perhaps the big problem is how you present your tips like they're 100% proven techniques that have been backed by tennis authorities. If you were more open about the advice being just based on your 3.5 level experience, maybe it wouldn't come off as badly.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
  4. tennisexecutor

    tennisexecutor Rookie

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    thank you for sharing your progress and posting the videos. i like your fluid style. i'm trying to follow along on some of the suggestions people are offering you and one thing that is confusing me is the terminology of the outside foot or hip. please correct me if i'm erring, but in one of the posts earlier tricky said that in a closed stance ohbh, the outside foot that you plant would be the left foot (farthest from the ball/net) but then on serve returns the outside hip is the one that "follows" the ball -- wouldn't the right, inside hip (inside) be the one that's closest to the ball on a backhand return?
     
  5. chico9166

    chico9166 Guest

    Oh no, now you're almost exclusively stepping into every ball?
     
  6. tennisexecutor

    tennisexecutor Rookie

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    isn't it important to step into every ball if you want to suck the maximum juice out of your shots? i know it might not be the best thing to do since sometimes that extra juice won't work as effectively because of time you'll lose during the initiation of the step. it may be better to bum rush the ball and take away more time from your opponent if you can still hit a shot with "adequate" pace.
     
  7. limitup

    limitup Professional

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    Pace doesn't only come from "stepping in" to the ball. There are several ways to get your weight behind a shot. A tremendous amount of pace can be generated via the rotational/angular momentum of the modern forehand - more so than "stepping in" to the shot, which isn't necessary at all to generate tremendous pace.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2011
  8. tennisexecutor

    tennisexecutor Rookie

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    what makes a modern forehand? is the OP here using the modern forehand?

    a lot of the forehands he hits in the second video are closed stance forehands where he steps into the shot with his left foot and uncoils his hips in conjunction, with almost no knee bend, so he doesn't rise up to contact when he transfers his weight in these lax practice sessions. is there anything the OP can do to get more pace than he already is, by harnessing the modern forehand and making use of rotational inertia?
     
  9. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    If the path of the ball will land to your left, then the outside foot will be the left foot. If it lands to your right, then outside foot is right foot. I could have said left foot for BHs, right foot for FHs, which is pretty much true unless you are running out a shot.

    Yeah, but don't want to encourage it during practice. Most people's stances should be more closed than they usually have it, given a certain shot and angle.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
  10. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    The first two forwards are open stance but the legs seem almost
    completely unloaded.

    There's something strange going on with the forehands after that.
    You are on your left foot but the right leg is kicking out as you hit
    your forehand and then the moment of the swing makes you pivot around
    your left foot/leg and the right leg swings around. At best you are
    only loading a little of the left leg. Were you trying to hit closed stance?
    There was no weight transfer from R to L leg.
     
  11. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    I feel a little dilemma here.... NTRP rating aside, I've put my game in my signature, so people can 'take it or leave it' as far as my postings are concerned.

    up till now we don't have a face (or actions) to you name, so I am hesitating to put your playing level in a category that may do injustice to you.... I think it will help, if you put something up, whether your own hitting, or your students' hitting, so there is a foundation to continue this discussion....

    short of that, I am hesitating to go any further because the fact is certain level player can only understand so much.... just a general statement, not specifically pointed at you.
     
  12. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I have to agree again. Dozu, you need to play tennis more and maybe you will forget all about the golf thing. or maybe play more golf? If you were uncle Toni telling me to watch golf to get better at tennis I would listen but it honestly sounds crazy what you are saying.
     
  13. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    I'd respectfully request that you also put something up, your own or your students, so that we have a foundation for further discussion.... it's very easy to create misunderstandings on forums like this, and I don't won't to assume anything.

    I never present anything as 'authoritative'.... there are many ways to hit a ball..... if some benefit, great, if some don't, cool also.

    Some time ago I suggested that we all put something in the signature, so there is a 'visual' for discussions like this.... otherwise who knows who/what is on the other end of the cyberspace :)..... just a joke, you could be a 5 year old girl playing on dad's computer, or the family cat smart enough to type..... no offence... just a joke.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
  14. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    What are you talking about? What does our playing levels have to do with anything? We're not presenting advice as if we're tennis authorities.

    I'm sure you don't mean to, but your advice comes off very much like you believe you're a tennis authority. If I post advice, I'm very careful to point out that my tips are "what I think" and I do not make any absolute claims. Your advice, however, is more like "you need to listen to the planet more" "you need to swing the human racquet."

    I didn't mean the 3.5 thing as an insult. I just meant you're a recreational player. Therefore, the only evidence that these golf tips are good for tennis is the testimony of one recreational player (no offense, we're all rec players).

    So how can we (or you for that matter) be certain that these golf visualizations are good for tennis? How do we know the baseball strategies aren't better?
     
  15. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    ^^^ no insults taken, i got plenty of 3.5 ratings here, but I have not lost to a former open B draw winner for 2 years, and I have 50-95% win rate against 1 and 2 star senior recruits and former D1/D3 guys....

    my point is exactly yours, before going any deeper, I just wonna make sure that i am not having a discussion with the family cat or a 5 year old playing with dad's computer... (saying it in a half-jokingly way)

    playing level (or coaching level, hence a student's video is also acceptable) does have something to do with how much a player understands the game.

    I never meant to present anything as 'authoritative'..... my 20 years of consulting experience tells me that you only need to know 10% more than your client to give advice.... same as in tennis.... the postings are intended to help those who are still developing.... if some can benefit, cool.... if some don't cool also.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
  16. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    Okay you've lost me. I'm not asking for help, I'm asking about the merit of your tips.

    Basically, this video thing is just a backhanded way of saying "you don't get my tips because you're not good enough." That's just silly.
     
  17. tennisexecutor

    tennisexecutor Rookie

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    i think what dozu is trying to say is that, as an open-minded student of the recreational game like many of us here, he has been diligently researching, practising and evaluating various principles and techniques to improve his game and of the ones that seem to work well, sharing with the rest of us. he even has a live hitting video of himself to show his progress in hope that others give it a shot as well and see how they do. i think this kind of inquisitive approach to the game has some merit. the proof of the pudding and all that.

    maybe nick bolleteri or someone that has more experience and knows 10% more than dozu will step up and shed some light on these golfing techniques and principles. maybe we should be looking at bowling techniques more carefully for inspiration, who knows?
     
  18. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    I will add that most of my problems come with low bouncing serves. I actually do okay with high bouncing kickers as my natural topspin stroke works well with it. But if the serve is below my waist I have a lot of trouble even getting good contact on them.
     
  19. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    I am just suspecting that 'you're not good enough', hence the request for a video.

    and if indeed you are not good enough, then it's pointless to keep the discussion going, and I'd suggest you either try to benefit from my stuff, or just ignore.
     
  20. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    appreciate the input.... and some (e.g. tennis_balla) already said they understand what I am trying to get across... if any experienced players/teachers can dispute with logical arguments, then I am all ears.

    I just don't wonna keep going in circles, with the risk that the other end of the discussion is a 5 year old.... and on the internet anything is possible.
     
  21. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    Exactly. You think because we don't agree with your magic pill and listening to the planet tips we're just not good enough to understand. Is that any way to go through life? Just assume all differing opinions stem from the opposing view's lack of understanding? I could critique lots of things about your strokes, but I'm not going to because this isn't about our individual playing abilities. It's about the advice you provided. What you're tying to produce is called an ad hominem argumentative fallacy. Rather than discussing the topic, you try to discredit the writer.

    Do you think if you went up to Roger Federer and said "Hey Rog, good job listening to the planet on that forehand" he would say "Yeah, I know exactly what you mean, thanks!" ?

    From what I can tell, the benefit of your advice seems to be having a relaxed arm. Then you throw in a bunch of convoluted golf stuff like letting your arm fall and rotating to get out of its way and other things that no high level coach has ever advocated. I can't even argue each point because you appear to be making an entire teaching system based solely on golf tips.
     
  22. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    ^^^ if not for the fact that kids have gone to bed and I am just lying on the couch watching Sod playing this other dude, I was not gonna reply 1 more time...

    options were clearly laid out -

    1) prove that you have similar or better understanding of the game than I have, and we can continue, or

    2) if you don't have a similar level of understanding, then just learn, or ignore my stuff... there is no need to provide hard proof that 1 swinging sport can transfer techniques to another swinging sport.... it's common sense.

    someone has to make a move to stop this infinite dead loop, so I will gladly take the honor.... on 2nd thought, I'd be glad to hear you pointing out my swing flaws as a proof that you do have a level of understand that worth keeping the discussion going.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
  23. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    Let me get this straight, we're discussing your tennis instruction. You don't have to prove that your tips apply to tennis, but I have to prove that I'm worthy of discussing the matter with you?

    To be quite honest, I think your video shows that you're a 3.5-4.0 player and are therefore in no way qualified to be formulating hypotheses about tennis instruction.

    I don't know why you chose to make this a personal matter. You should be able to defend your instruction without resulting to ad hominem attacks. Perhaps that reflects the veracity of your claims.
     
  24. pyrokid

    pyrokid Hall of Fame

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    I was just saying that you saying there are no viable critiques and then pointing out a critique you saw that was viable was a contradiction.
     
  25. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    I don't have to prove anything.... how many times do I have to say 'take it or leave it'..

    3.5-4.0 is fine, my record speaks for itself.

    let me say 1 last time - take it or leave it.

    but if you discredit it, show us that you are legit.

    I think I made things crystal clear.

    and I think our fellow TWers deserve this.... they've seen my face, so they decide to either take it or leave it... so I think we all deserve to see some action from those who give arguments for/against something.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
  26. Recon

    Recon Semi-Pro

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    I believe I said, THE ONLY, which is the same as saying, WITH ONE EXCEPTION, which makes it non contradictory. It's like saying all your sneakers suck, with the exception of this one.
     
  27. phnx90

    phnx90 Hall of Fame

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    There is a lot of hate on this thread

    Btw, that backhand slice of yours near the beginning of the second video looks like a very painful motion. You might want to lock your wrist a little more so your racquet doesn't go flailing after contact.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
  28. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    ^^^ the line in the sand sometimes is hard to draw, between hate and straightfowardness.

    in this politically correct world flooded with legalese and corporatese, I'd rather see some cut-to-the-chase conversions going with intellectual levels kept high... being a student of the game, I'd love to have that type of conversations.

    but in order to keep the standards high, cut to the chase also means cutting out the chicken fat, the worthless stuff from illegit sources.
     
  29. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    Like self-developed tennis instruction from 3.5 level players.
     
  30. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    ^^^ people can make their own decision, on the stuff posted by somebody who has shown his game.

    your voice is still faceless... and you have provided nothing of substance other than 'this golf stuff doesn't work' and 'this guy is a 3.5'

    I am gonna watch Murry and Jurgen now.... until you show your face, I am gonna treat all your stuff as from the family cat.

    Ciao (or is it Miao).... lol
     
  31. MasturB

    MasturB Hall of Fame

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    Tone it down a little bit fellas.
     
  32. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    he started it lolol
     
  33. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I posted a video before. I am 44 years old. I am 1.5-2 years back to tennis after a 20+ year break. I played 2 years of D1 college tennis for a university of California school in my youth. I grew up in Palos Verdes CA a great tennis town. I had a lot of coaching as a kid. I have never heard any one of my coaches in my youth talk about the stuff you talk about. Now I don't claim to be a great tennis player but I do know how to play tennis.

    my video I posted on Dec 20th hitting against wall because I cannot get anyone to let me tape us playing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFbsN2caXz4

    And this was your reply:

    how's your consistency like on the court? seems to me you've got great core rotation, and there is plenty of mph on those balls... and you can certainly make it a reliable weapon if consistency is no issue..... it looks like the net clearance is a little erratic and there will be quite a few short balls and out of bounds on the court.... no?

    If anything, I'd like to see a little looser grip pressure.... you look loose when you are in balance, but a little tight when you have to move..... and exaggerate the racket drop a little bit more, so you get the initial acceleration from gravity, which is ALWAYS CONSISTENT...

    here is a golf video, because I haven't seen any tennis teacher talking much about the racket drop... so here it is. Notice that 'pushing the kid on a swing analogy'.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-cArHLrxc8

    you can see Federer's FH, which has a racket 'free fall' to start the swing.


    a side note - you are VERY athletic for 45.


    The comment you made about dropping the racket more is absolutely true. But what isn't true is your claim that tennis coaches do not tell students about the racket drop. Every coach I had would tell me to drop my racket more if I wanted more top on the ball. they told me to drop the racket below the ball more if I found myself hitting too close to the net. To add more margin for safety if I am not timing the swing right against certain players. Your comments about my net height is also weird to me because most balls are meant to be hit several feet (3-5) above the level of the net with pace and spin. the balls will not go out because of the spin. I was taught to hit that way as a kid. high over the net with a fast spinny ball equals deep ground strokes that cannot be attacked.

    Your comments to me do not sound like you are a tennis coach. Because tennis is not golf. Balance in tennis is not from watching a golf swing. Its from moving your feet and getting into position. Golf has nothing to do with it. I am NOT a tennis coach but what you are saying is very wrong to me on several levels. You make something simple like a tennis swing overly complicated. And to boot you yourself do not hit like what you are saying to do with core rotation and all that stuff. You arm the ball mostly.

    you also said this to my original post:

    hitting on the 2nd bounce off the wall mimics more of the rhythm of on court rally

    Maybe when I play old women it mimics 2 bounces off the wall. If I play anyone half way decent the ball is coming back with interest if I don't hit it deep and hard. There is no time. One bounce off the wall more closely resembles tennis imo. And hitting the ball to get back to you on one bounce means you are hitting with sufficient pace. Two bounces and you are patty caking the ball. you should be able to hit most balls with one bounce off the wall with 3-5 feet net height with good pace during wall practice.

    You seem like a cool dude but what you are saying is so off base to all the tennis instruction I have had. And it was a lot. At 44 years old I am not ever going to be the tennis player I once was playing once or twice a week now. But I do have a lot of experience playing Juniors and college along with years of 5 hour a day tennis as a kid. So yeah I can say I am a decent tennis player. My main gripe with your golf fixation is in golf the ball does not move when you hit it. You do not move to hit a golf ball. A golf ball just sits there. It cannot be any more obvious than that that tennis is nothing like golf.

    Am I sufficiently past a novice tennis player to question your teachings?

    Maybe I can post a video of points this summer if I can get someone to agree. But it is weird asking imo. If I get together with any NYC/NJ TT guys we can do that. So you will have to make due with my wall hitting for now.
     
  34. mtommer

    mtommer Hall of Fame

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    Does the golf swing take into account a dynamic or static object being struck?

    Does the golf swing take into account one hit at a time with no contesting return ball or several hits at a time with a contested returned ball?

    Does the golf swing take into account boundary lines or can one "hit out" on many balls?

    Does the golf swing consist of vertical or horizontal planes of ball strike?

    Does the golf club consist of a rigid ball interface surface or interwoven lines of string?

    Does a golf player aim to brush up on a golf ball?

    How long is a golf club compared to a racquet? What about the weighting of said club and racquet?

    Does one grip a golf club as one grips a tennis racquet?

    Does a golf swing seek to try and provide a straight line path from backswing, swing, ball strike to finish?

    And finally, are the feet of a golfer stationary while they swing or are they constantly moving their feet?
     
  35. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    ^^^

    yes - I have seen your wall video before.... problem is it's hard to track who is who with these things scattered around, instead of tied to the signature.

    no, wall video is not good enough, who knows if you are not gonna dump all those forehands into the net when you hit with a live person? lol just kidding... see this was exactly the intent... now that I know you are not a cat, we can continue.

    I don't recall ever saying that tennis pros don't teach racket drop (what I meant was, in the youtube world, you don't see much discussion about what happens during the racket drop, and the relationship to the forward swing).... I've always said the stuff is nothing new, just a different angle of explaining the same thing - weight transfer, balance, core rotation.

    my own swing... yeah a couple of shots there I did arm them, but for the most part I don't... I am far less athletic than you are, so have to use a very long swing to build up racket speed... quite often the experience of the one in the video is very different from the one watching the video... I also have below average (understatement) flexibility, so my tennis swing is also adapted to that with less core rotation and more arm swing component... but believe me... I don't arm the ball.

    your point of tennis being dynamic is legit, which is what I also have said many times.... but look at your own video... don't you let the body get out of the way so that your arm can come around, don't you swing the 'human racket' and let the hand react to centrifugal force, and don't you time the firing tempo so that you don't lose balance.... you are good enough player who already have the balance built into your game, and that's what I meant by 'listening to the planet'... heck the term is not even mine.

    Sure, footwork is a much bigger part in tennis, if you can't get there, forget about it.... but what if you CAN get there? look at the 'me hitting' videos around here, people still lose balance even standing there hitting against a ball machine. There is not much difference between hitting against a wall machine vs. hitting a golf ball.... so hopefully this squares away your main 'fixation'.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
  36. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    goodness, I need to go to bed... a bit exhausted after playing 36 holes on my golf simulator with a buddy... and now you hit me with a dozen questions.

    short answer is - I never said the 2 sports are the same.... there are swing components that are similar - core rotation, tempo, relaxed arm.

    and I am posting golf videos because I have not found youtube equivalents from tennis pros explaning these similar components in such ways.

    Find me some tennis videos that explains the anatomy of the human body.... then I will stop posting golf clips. I promise.

    Can I go to bed now?
     
  37. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I hit the way I hit because I had a tennis pro hand feed me balls as a little boy. I had a myriad of tennis drills during practice to build up my stroke. everytime I did something off a coach would tell me what I did wrong. for example...

    If I armed a shot... "turn your shoulders more"

    If I was late in a stroke... "swing earlier"

    If my body got in the way as I was running for a wide forehand and ended up stunting my stroke... "bigger steps to get to the ball but when you get close start taking tiny adjustment steps to get in the optimum spot so you do not overrun the strike zone."

    these are very specific tennis instruction that has immediate and repeatable outcome

    There is a world of difference between tennis and golf. Do you seriously believe what you just wrote? Even in my wall video where the ball to coming back to me within a couple feet I take on average 5 steps between each ball to setup for the next ball coming right back to me. You do not take ANY steps to hit a golf ball. And not to mention in a real match where people are hitting away from you your taking 10-20 steps between every ball. big steps little steps and all the tiny adjustment steps. Golf is not tennis. Cricket is more like golf than tennis is like golf.

    good night dozu... we can argue tomorrow some more. I just played 2 hours of doubles before I posted in this thread tonight. I beat up on some doubles specialists. It was fun. My partner was a 70 year old man. crazy junk balls lol. We won!
     
  38. mtommer

    mtommer Hall of Fame

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    The swing components are not similar. Having a relaxed arm in golf is not the same as having a relaxed arm in tennis. The core rotation is not the same. The tempo is not the same and frankly your golf tip video is not a very good tip for any swing. The tip basically says to get the club going via gravity and then slap at the ball on the way down. In tennis, slapping at the ball is a good way of losing control.

    No you may not. You will stay up and answer all the original questions and if you don't you will go to work without any breakfast.
     
  39. chico9166

    chico9166 Guest

    I understand (as a scratch golfer, and a tennis instructor) some of what Dozu is saying, but in the final analysis, it's tough to draw too many parallels between open (tennis) and closed (golf) skill sports.

    Even this thread, and the subsequent "changes" the OP has made in his base stance package,(from more open to step in) represents a closed skill mentality applied to an open skill sport. Talk about the perceived benefits of stepping into every ball (false premise) and then set up the perfect conditions with a ball machine. This has nothing to do with playing tennis.

    I think the open stance, as seen in the first video, (again as a base package) has much more upward potential for the OP in terms of recovery/defense, using his considerable athleticism, and most importantly, elevating to keep the ball in his strike zone (he's 5'5 for gods sakes).

    P.S Dozu, check out Wayne Defrancesco or Jeff Ritter (especially if u are a single plane swinger) for golf instruction.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2011
  40. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    ok, now I have to work hard, now that I've got some quality (no sarcasm) responses to work with.

    How is relaxation/rotation/tempo not the same? and slapping is exactly Clement says NOT to do... He's #1 on youtube, top 25 teacher in Canada, contestant of Golf Channel instructor, can break par swing both left and right handed....how is his stuff not good for anything?
     
  41. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    both sports have gone thru the linear-to-rotational transition in recent years (or decades?)

    I agree that rotational has more potential, especially for a young guy like OP..... but I remember a few weeks back I had a thread asking pros if they teach the 'modern rotational' tennis to older guys, and one response was that he doesn't teach to students above certain age. Clement also mentioned that most of his students are average guys/older guys/gals who are not elite athletes... I believe the linear component still has it's place, especially in the recreational mass of club players.... less potential for injury if you don't have to twist the body like a Japanese Bonzai.... my own video shows that I have below average leg/core strength and flexibility, yet I can produce enough juice to bother good amateurs (I did not make up the win rates I claimed)

    P.S. I have watched most of Ritter's videos... my body would complain if I try to swing like that... In another thread I admitted that I am a golf hack... I go with Clement's method of finding the swing plane, without going much into if it's 1 or 2 plane.... yesterday when I was on the simulator, I was basically hitting a bunch of forehands, and I know I can trust that swing after playing tennis for 20+ years...... I still have a flawed grip with the left hand..... if only golf is played with 1 hand, I'd be all good :)
     
  42. chico9166

    chico9166 Guest

    And to me, this is the art of teaching(at least with the great teachers I've seen). Taking a player, with a certain profile, and building a game around there strengths and weaknesses. We are not talking generically here, but what is in the best interest of this player specifically. He displays above average athleticism, with an ability to play at a reasonably high level. He will need to play principally out of an open stance to compete in a faster game, and combat his shorter stature. (a really important factor IMO) You have to be able to elevate at higher levels of play. A more open stance, provides for this.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2011
  43. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    I never said the type of instruction you were getting was wrong... my stuff (not really mine) basically just provides a different way to learn the same thing, a way that approaches more from 'feel', rather than specific body parts... Several fellow TWers already agreed that both approaches have their merits.

    The 'world of difference' you are talking about, still seems to be the 'moving' aspect of tennis.... Let me elaborate on that..... I think the ultimate goal is balance, and to me, in tennis there are roughly 3 situations balance is maintained.

    1) BOOM - player is basically standing still, and hits either off the front or the back foot, weight transfer/tempo is very much comparable to a stationary hitting sport like golf or baseball.

    2) dit dit dit BOOM - this would be what you described above - fairly neutral movements during rally, you are not under the gun, so you move the dit dit dit, then you hit the BOOM... you are diligent with the footwork, and you are still hitting the standard shot, off the front or back foot......

    Now here is what I think a lot of players misinterpret what it means by 'getting into position'.. I have posted in other threads, that if the player has a poor tempo, then the feet often have to provide leverage against the ground to maintain balance, during the BOOM, and therefore the feet look 'shackled' when they try to do both the dit dit dit and the BOOM and the same time...... with enough diligence, player can get by with such faulty tempo to a degree, by working harder with the dit dit dit, and get that task out of the way, so the feet can focus on the BOOM at impact.... however this type of pattern can only carry you so far, until you encounter the 3rd situation below..

    by the way the comments above are not specifically referring to anybody.... arche3, your wall video didn't show any faults like I said above.

    A simple litmus paper test, is to see if the player, at the moment of impact, is still pushing against the ground (as a result of faulty tempo).... watch the pros, when they hit neutral rally balls, at the moment of impact, the feet are light with little or no pressure against the ground... such that their movements look very 'floaty' around the court, and they can go airborne at impact.

    3) dit dit dit, boom boom BOOM..... this is where a faulty tempo can really expose you.... you are under the gun, opponent hits a wide ball and is charging the net, and you have to run a long way to get to the ball.... it's physically impossible to get that dit dit dit stuff out of the way first... you have to run and hit, and have to cross the inside leg over the outside leg after impact.... and an in-tune tempo is the only way, that you can do the boom boom (large strides into the hit) without losing balance, because the feet are now so busy in getting to the ball, they can not leverage the ground to maintain balance, and the only way to stay in balance is to be in tune with the planet, and then finally, the BOOM, the last big stride and swing into contact.

    by the way, I have explained this 3rd situation to a few local friends, .... some got it, and some in the process of getting it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2011
  44. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    I think we are on the same page.... I have never said there is anything wrong with the way tennis is taught by pros today... rotational open stance swing is sure the way to go with today's fast pace... for players who are aiming to elevate to higher levels.

    If I have to specify an audience, then I'd say Clement's stuff is very beneficial to the recreational mass, where it really doesn't make a big difference between linear and rotational, the ultimate goal is for the player to understand human body anatomy, to be able to enjoy the game to his/her full potential, and to prevent injuries.
     
  45. pyrokid

    pyrokid Hall of Fame

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    @Recon:
    Sure, I just didn't know if you thought it was a stroke deficiency or not.
    I must have not been reading right though because I just re-read it and it makes sense.
     
  46. mtommer

    mtommer Hall of Fame

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    Because his tip is good for people who have an innate sense of control during the "slap" phase which is far away not the majority of golfers. Too many people will end up rotating their hips far to soon to achieve this "snap". The tip simply has too much of a possibility to lead a golfer astray and you'll note he's having to explain something that he's taught before because people were confused.

    Here's a picture of the guy at just after ball contact....not bad, for a golf swing. It is not even close to what's required for a consistent and repeatable tennis swing though.
    [​IMG]

    If you can't understand why this pictures represents a bad idea for a tennis swing then you need to study tennis more. Being in balance for one type of shot is not the same as "being in balance" ubiquitously. Having good tempo for a golf swing is not the same as having a good tempo for a tennis swing. You have to have balance, tempo, core rotation, is differing planes of force, contact, etc. and that makes each concept unique to each sport which requires relearning techniques when learnig one sport after another.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2011
  47. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    please show an example what is required for a repeatable tennis swing.

    I always believe I need to study more.... at my request, arche3 has shown his face but Hunter has not.... may I request that you show yours also.... not only for me, but also for the benefit of fellow TWers reading this thread.
     
  48. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    Since we're showing images of how golf swing mechanics are extremely relevant in tennis, I thought I'd show something that helped me greatly -- chicken chasing.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    These are great examples of how proper chicken chasing can really help your footwoork.

    In both photos, notice the slightly bent over posture. Notice how the head is still held up. Notice Rocky's heel-toe foot action. Notice how both Rocky and the child are seeming to glide across the ground while chasing their respective chickens. Notice the incredible balance as they "move to the chicken". Use the same approach when dealing with a running forehand.

    Make no mistake, this is extremely relevant to your tennis game. Tennis has running, balance, momentum, and chasing. So does chicken chasing. Therefore, practicing chicken chasing will help your game.
     
  49. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    there is actually a lot of truth in that.... tennis players often use those random bounce reaction balls to train reflex.... would be more fun by chasing those random running roosters.
     
  50. tennisexecutor

    tennisexecutor Rookie

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