Forehands going long

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by anubis, May 15, 2012.

  1. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    Hi,

    What are the most common reasons why a forehand shot (where the ball is no higher than my torso) sails long most of the time?

    I'm losing every match I play because of my unforced errors. I usually get to the ball with no issues, but they never go in. I suspect it has something to do with me not being able to generate enough top spin, even though I try very hard to do so.

    It's generally OK from the baseline, most of my shots land almost on the opposite baseline. But as I move forward, they always go long.

    I use a semi western forehand grip, modern (open) forehand stance. My racquet is a Babolat PDGT. Multi-filament strings, strung at 58 lbs.

    At this point, the only thing I have to combat this issue is by going full western in my grip. But I've been taught that full western is a bad forehand grip so I do my best to prevent myself from slipping into old habits.

    Thanks!
     
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  2. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Add topspin, thru pronation.
    Stronger grip, to strong SW.
    Stand sideways to the ball.
    Lower your trajectory.
    Swing a little softer when you're closer to the net, as the distance is less.
    Totally loosen your grip.
     
    #2
  3. vil

    vil Semi-Pro

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    Video would help. There could be a number of reasons for it. Timing, type of swing or footwork. What I mean, maybe with shorter balls,you are not positioning yourself to execute properly. Also, the obvious one is the spin. You use western grip. Normally people with that grip can whip a lot of topspin but again it can be only made if the above mentioned are correct.
    Maybe your shots are too flat. Topspin will give the ball a bit of security.
     
    #3
  4. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    A million reasons..not split stepping on time..not turning your body so your chin rests on your left shoulder. Not using your offhand to prep and initiate the stroke.

    I just named the issues that I dealt with..have no idea what yours are.
     
    #4
  5. joesucks

    joesucks New User

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    My biggest problem with shorter balls was to run through the ball, now I deliberately split step when i get into the position and then take a shot at the ball, definitely improved my percentages but still make quite a few unforced errors.
     
    #5
  6. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    Swing a lot faster. To do this you'll need to use more of your body. And put topspin while doing that. If no spin, it will hit the fence. Hitting a tennis ball hard is very easy. Doing it with control is hard part. Spin=control.
     
    #6
  7. loosegroove

    loosegroove Professional

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    I agree with others that it could be number of things and a video would be of the most benefit. But in my experience with other 3.5-4.0 players, it sounds like that although you are getting to the ball, you're probably reaching for the ball when you hit it. When you're reaching forward, it's difficult to hit you're regular swing with follow through, so you won't be getting your usually brush on the ball.

    So the key is footwork and anticipation. As soon as you hit a ball, keep your feet moving and ready for the next ball, so if it's short you can come in quickly. I know I'm guilty of hitting a ball, then standing there kind of flatfooted, waiting for the next.
     
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  8. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    We can't tell - but if I had to guess - if you are just missing by a bit consistently your racquet face is probably too open.
     
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  9. ace_pace

    ace_pace Rookie

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    KEEP YOUR HEAD STILL UNTIL THE BALL HAS LEFT THE STRINGS OF YOUR RACKET!
     
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  10. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for the replies all.

    So it's a fine balance between a closed and open racquet face when using a semi western grip? I find that its very easy to keep a closed racquet face when using a full western... what are some tips, when using semi western, in learning how to keep the face closed?


    What is the difference between semi western and "strong" semi western grip?

    That sounds to me like you're asking me to "not take my eyes off the ball", correct?

    Thanks again all.
     
    #10
  11. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Weak...a sw grip towards eForehand.
    Strong..a sw grip towards full Western, for more topspin.
     
    #11
  12. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Most likely your problem is that you are trying to hit pure topspin from 6 oclock, straight up to 12 oclock.
     
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  13. albesca

    albesca Rookie

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    Moving forward you transfer the weight on the ball automatically, so you have the opposite problem in relation to the baseline: how to remove excessive weight transfer.

    In my opinion, if you haven't way to reduce the inertia of the forward movement, you may reduce the amplitude of the unit turn, and would be able to limit the horizontal component that makes your shots go long (on condition you always go fast with your arm).
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2012
    #13
  14. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    So as I approach the net, I'm not supposed to use the kinetic chain, because I'm compounding the forward inertial force plus the rotation of my hips/shoulders? Perhaps I should just use more of a closed stance/traditional forehand as I move towards the net?
     
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  15. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Here's a revelation.....
    YOU are standing closer to the net, need to the ball SHORTER, !!!!
     
    #15
  16. ace_pace

    ace_pace Rookie

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    Yeah kinda but I'd like to emphasise it with your head. Having your head still really helps out your balance as well as consistency and weight transfer.
     
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  17. OnlineTennisInstruction

    OnlineTennisInstruction New User

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    There could be many reasons but most likely your racket face is too open. Try closing your racket face a little bit more on these shots by adjusting your wrist/forearm instead of changing the grip!

    Another common reason for balls going long is leaning backwards which usually opens up the racket face; so you could try to lean forward a little bit more

    Hope that helps
     
    #17
  18. magz007

    magz007 New User

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    i definitely agree, it is important to maintain your stability, straight shoulder line and centre of gravity. and slight change in stability disturbs the whole biomechanic process.:cool:
     
    #18
  19. fuzz nation

    fuzz nation Legend

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    Transitioning forward is tricky business in a number of ways. Got to be careful to not run though the shot, the court is effectively shorter and your shot has to travel accordingly, and after you hit the ball, you still need to continue forward... among other things.

    If you don't effectively pause to set and hit your shot, I'd say there's not much else to worry about until you get better with that. Yes, you want to use a kinetic chain, but you need to tap into that by setting and swinging well. If you're running through that forehand too much, it will spray just about anywhere.

    The more traditional stance that includes more of a sideways orientation in your stroke actually has a lot of merit in terms of effectively transitioning forward. While open stance strokes can allow for better recovery back toward the middle while grinding at the baseline, a more neutral stance through the approach shot can be much better for a more seamless forward move. When I say neutral stance, I'm referring to a more sideways setup than an open setup that leaves the torso too square to the net. Careful not to overdo it and close up too much though, since that can over-complicate your footwork and movement.
     
    #19
  20. albesca

    albesca Rookie

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    Assumes you're forced to hit while moving forward

    If contact point is low and you need to arc the ball, yes, neutral stance is better because shifting the weight on front foot you can have a better control of the body forward inertia.

    If contact is high enough and you can hit a flat forehand .. you can use both stances but using the open, you can take advantage from inertia to have more power doing, if you are able, a backfoot-to-frontfoot step into the ball... ( i can't ..) :)
     
    #20
  21. Phillip Hofmeyr

    Phillip Hofmeyr New User

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    Hi Anubis,

    You've got some great advice here. Perhaps too much. You can't hold it all in your head while you play. One swing thought at the most. Or even better, zero thoughts (if you follow Tim Gallway).

    Part of BoramiNYC's post summed it up most succinctly:
    Spin = Control

    But not by swinging faster! Rather do it the way LeeD suggests: pronation.
    topspin comes from the hand action through contact - i.e. the "windshield-wiper"

    Ultimately where the ball lands depends on ONE THING ONLY: stringbed angle & path at impact.

    You can do absolutely everything else 'wrong' but if you still do this correctly its going to go in. (watch the pro's for a case in point)

    So if topspin is your choice (and it should be), you simply need to make sure your racket angle at impact is between 75 & 80 degrees. The best way to do that is to keep it at that angle through the impact zone. i.e. use the windshield wiper technique which uses loads of wrist (pronation suggested by LeeD) but stays 'in the same plane' i.e. parallel to the imaginary 'windshield' instead of rolling over.

    Have a look at this shot of Nalbandian from Jeff Counts Hi-TechTennis

    [​IMG]

    Also have a look at the clip of Federer on the homepage. Ideally watch it in slow-motion: http://www.hi-techtennis.com

    In fact, watch it several times. Visual learning is exceptionally powerful and Jeff is an expertise in this field.

    Anubis, once you're using the windshield-wiper technique you will fall so in love with your forehand you will do everything in your power to use it. You'll find it automatically improves your preparation and you'll start moving better as your body instinctively seeks out to repeat the shot :)
     
    #21
  22. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

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    I agree with this and also with the poster who said swing faster /take a full cut at the ball (as oppose to babying your shot/ just pushing it).

    The other stuff are important as well, form Power Player such as split step, preparation + relaxed arm.

    Lastly have you thought about an open string pattern? That's what I prefer with full bed natural gut, so that it bites more into the ball, preventing the balls from sailing long...

    Winshield wiper might be good, but besides being complicated, don't forget to swing through the ball first, if you want power and precision....

    And there is no real need to change your grip from Eastern to SW or W.
     
    #22
  23. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    So if your swing is more horizontal and across the ball at contact, you can control your net clearance more precisely with a little side aspect to your topspin.
     
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  24. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Just aim lower over the net.
     
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  25. Sir Shankalot

    Sir Shankalot Rookie

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    We need a video.

    However I suspect that you are focussing too much on topspin and not enough on hitting through the ball. I have this issue too, sometimes. What happens with me is that I get fixated on brushing up the back of the ball, and end up hitting moonballs which land uncomfortably close to the baseline and sometimes go long. The fix, for me, is to just focus on hitting through the ball, well out in front, still with some low-to-high swing but not exaggerated. Ball goes lower over the net, lands somewhere in mid NML, and has a lot more pace.

    Oh yeah, and make sure you keep your head still.
     
    #25
  26. dave t

    dave t New User

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    Based on the OP (and no video) - 5263's response seems to make the most sense. You said yourself you try very hard to create spin - that doesn't sound good. You should generally be hitting through the ball - spin just comes with a good stroke. You'll probably find you hit with even more spin if you loosen up and hit through it.
     
    #26
  27. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    Wow, old thread! I do have a video, just didn't link it to this particular thread:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k0hnZBTIWw

    I played a 3.5 singles match yesterday and lost. My record for this year so far in singles is 1-7 I think. The match this weekend was a tournament. didn't necessarily get my butt kicked, but my opponent definitely had the upper hand for most of the match. Aside from his volleying skills and my inability to keep the ball deep, probably the largest thing was that I ran out of steam at the 2.5 hour mark -- and he didn't, so in the end he had the energy to keep serving and hitting hard and I was just completely spent.

    I think I'm going to buy some power gels...
     
    #27
  28. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

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    Exactly.....Plus that you get some effortless power as well.
     
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  29. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Did you still hit too many long trying to keep it deep?
     
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  30. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    I didn't have that many that went long. Of all of my unforced errors, more shots went into the net or wide than long. But that's because I sort of froze up and was scared to hit long. In the three set match, I probably hit 5 or 6 shots long per set.
     
    #30
  31. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, but hitting in the net in a case like yours is closely tied with concern for hitting long and often a compensation to try and adjust for it, right?
     
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  32. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    I probably hit the ball into the net because I hit too flat.
     
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  33. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    In your posted vid, all your forehand went IN when you hit about 3' above the net or less.
    EVERY single on hit 5' or higher went long.
    Aim lower more consistently, don't spray a couple up as high as the incoming ball off the ball machine.
     
    #33
  34. spun_out

    spun_out Rookie

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    I hate to harp on this, but you are once again telling me that when you hit these forehands like the ones in the clip to your 3.5 opponents, they crush them back and quickly get the upper hand in the rally? Or is it more like they scramble to get the forehands back, but they manage to dink it to your backhand and everything goes south from there?
     
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  35. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I think OP starts out a match hitting really nice higher level forehands, then when he starts to get tired, he loses his groove and starts to hit them slightly long, the shots called OUT.
    Then, frustrated with a few long shots, OP starts hitting harder and harder, hitting 5' above the netcord, like Nadal, but unlike Nadal, doesn't add the needed topspin.
     
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  36. spun_out

    spun_out Rookie

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    Hmm, that sounds a lot like me, but anubis looks really fit though and I don't see how he has to run around so much if he is blasting his forehands, whether they go in or out.

    But if the forehand is going a bit long, I think that this can be managed via string setup.
     
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  37. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Strings?
    How about learning when to go for a winner, and when to hit a rally ball?
    Mute the power with strings, a winner is almost impossible to hit.
    Instead, mute the excess power with topspin, and retain a lower winner attempt ball.
     
    #37
  38. spun_out

    spun_out Rookie

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    Well two string setups can have similar power but different spin potential; they can have similar power but difference rebound angle, they can grab the ball differently, etc. I agree with you about not muting power.
     
    #38
  39. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    Yes, net clearance is tough for me. Sometimes 5' makes it in too, but you're mostly right: they usually don't. 3' is great, but its hard to do that consistently.

    They don't necessarily "crush them", but my forehands aren't giving them any trouble. Most easily hit them back with at least the same pace as I give it. All they have to do is keep up the rally for 7 or 8 shots and then I eventually make an error, or I hit so short that it brings them up to the net so they can finish off the point rather easily. You have to remember that this time last year I was playing 3.0s. The 3.5s that I'm playing now have been 3.5s for years.

    Against 4.0 guys, they hit harder than I do, so they do "crush" the ball. They hit back with more pace than I give, and I often can't maintain a rally of 3 or 4 shots against that kind of pace.

    But either way, whether I'm playing 3.5 or 4.0, most of the time they just keep the rally going long enough until I can't hit deep anymore and they end the point with either an approach shot or an outright winner. Obviously it's my intention to do the same, but I'm usually the one to make the mistake first, or to hit short first.

    Yes, in singles I get tired quickly. After the 2 hour mark, I'm pretty much done. So if it's going to be a long match, all you have to do is keep it going three sets and then I'll lose my groove, and you'll win easily.

    Only in the end, I don't hit the shots harder. I begin the match hitting hard, but by the 2 hour mark, I'm just slapping the ball, so most shots land short. Easy game.

    I'm not really fit, I'm 30 lbs over weight and out of shape, even though I play tennis 10 to 20 hours a week.

    My string setup is Prince Premier Control 16 in the mains @ 54 lbs, with Kirschbaum Pro Line II 16 in the crosses @ 50 lbs.

    I can't put poly in the mains, it hurts my wrist. I can't use a full bed of multi or syn gut because EVERYTHING goes long -- I hit with no topspin at all. Multi/poly is the only combo that works for me.
     
    #39
  40. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    For flattish shots that have good pace, but not a lot of spin, people will get these balls back easily.

    I'm finding at 4.0 that a really good tactic is taking a little pace off the ball. Especially when hitting cross-court. If you can bring the opponent "north" off of their baseline so that they have to hit a ball while coming forward... it can pay big dividends.

    The key is that you need to keep the ball low. Good spin, but make sure the ball doesn't sit up when your opponent gets to it.
     
    #40
  41. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    The racket strings and ball are in contact for about 3-5 milliseconds. That contact totally controls the ball's trajectory.

    A high speed video camera at 240 fps captures a frame every 4.2 milliseconds and usually captures a frame of the ball on the strings.
    Particularly the frames before, during and after impact tell a great deal about the ball-string impact. For example, racket head speed, racket path, angle of the racket face at impact - open or closed, location of the ball on the strings, etc. High speed video can show your characteristics and how they differ from high level forehands. Characteristics that might lead to long balls could be identified.

    [​IMG]
    https://vimeo.com/63687035
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
    #41
  42. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    So, in that picture, Rafa's frame is probably tilted 85 degrees toward the inside of the court. That, plus tons of topspin keeps the ball lower over the net and inside the lines.

    Perhaps what you're saying is that upon contact, my frame is not likely tilted that way? Perhaps it's 90 degrees? Or even maybe 95 or 100 degrees towards the back fence? I can see how that might tend to send the balls up high.

    I'll have to work on that. thanks!
     
    #42
  43. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    As I recall the video shows that Nadal has a high racket head speed and cuts upward on the ball at a surprisingly high angle. The frame before, during impact and after impact might indicate a racket head path of 45° up during contact. See the video. (the side to side motion does not show well from this camera angle.) Also, of the forehands in the video, two of the forehand finish nearly on the same side, nearly "buggy whip". His forehand is an extreme example.

    Yours would have less racket head speed, probably different grip, lower racket speed, unknown angle on racket face, ball hits more off the racket centerline, etc.

    If I try this extreme a stroke I tend to spin balls in the net with too much topspin. That's because when my racket face is closed and the path is steeply upward, I often don't have enough racket head speed. I would have to make some adjustments, compromises, .........

    Probably best not to pick the player with the heaviest top spin as a model.

    These frames are 4.2 milliseconds apart (240 fps). This impact hit a little low on racket face.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Notice how much the racket head rises in just 8.4 milliseconds. Compare it to the forward translation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
    #43
  44. spun_out

    spun_out Rookie

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    I agree with mightrick in that you are probably hitting just slow enough and just flat enough that your opponents can use your pace to redirect your shots with ease. To combat this, you can go as mightyrick suggested, that is, take away pace and depth to make the opponents uncomfortable, or just get more pace and spin (or you can do both). But I would say that the shot mightyrick suggested is a tough shot to control (low and flat means lower net clearance) and if you get the location wrong, then it is just a sitter. I would instead use your inside out (or dtl) forehands to hit loopy forehands to the opponent's backhand. You don't need too much depth, as if you get it too deep, your opponent can use the power of your shots and block the shot back on the rise.
     
    #44
  45. spun_out

    spun_out Rookie

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    Achieving this type of forehand is what I meant in my post about string setup. If anubis lowers hit string tension by 5lbs and switches to gut in the mains, the racquet will be more powerful and spinny at the same time (it should also be softer). It will also have a higher rebound angle. This means that he can achieve a closed racquet face angle at contact and the racquet will still go over the net.
     
    #45
  46. ProgressoR

    ProgressoR Hall of Fame

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    Why not work on mechanics of the stroke first and worry about strings later?
     
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  47. spun_out

    spun_out Rookie

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    Your point is well-taken, but as you know, there is a section here devoted entirely to strings filled with 3.5/4.0s. Also, where does his forehand need to get to before he can worry about strings, 4.0, 4.5?

    If one shouldn't worry about strings, then why does it matter which strings he puts in his racquet? He can just use the setup I suggested and "forget" that he changed anything so he doesn't have to worry about it.

    In all seriousness, I do think that fiddling with strings has some benefits, the primary one being that you learn to adjust and therefore control the racquet face angle, swing path, etc. And if anubis has problems hitting balls long, then he has a problem with these aspects of the forehand, especially as his forehand looks very good to me.
     
    #47
  48. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    Yep, agree. It is a tough shot. I only do it cross-court over the low part of the net. I've tried to do it DTL and I still can't do it with consistency. I'm always clipping the net cord or sitting the ball up too much in that situation.

    More pace and more spin is always a good option, too. That just requires practice and better technique. And OP's original problem was sending balls long.
     
    #48
  49. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    So you think 54/50 is too tight? I string for friends and clients. The average tension for a full bed of poly is 65 lbs. The lowest tension that I string for a customer is 55 lbs, the highest is 68 lbs. But more people string higher so that pushes the average up a bit. Compared to theirs, mine is loose as all heck.

    So you're suggesting that I switch to 51/47, gut/poly hybrid? On a 100 square inch APD with 3 grams of lead at noon?
     
    #49
  50. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    I work on my mechanics for 10 to 15 hours a week. I practice more than anyone on any team I play on. I read, I study, I watch videos and I have coaches. I am the most disciplined player that I know of, and my singles record is still 1-6 for this year alone (I recounted).

    There must be some other factor that I'm missing.
     
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