Forehands going long

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by anubis, May 15, 2012.

  1. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    My guess (and I could be wrong) is your opponents are "hackers" who know their limitations, don't care they have limitations, and have found the most effective way to play around their limitations. In other words, they ignore their strokes and rely on other factors to win, like using their athleticism and hand-eye coordination to keep the ball in and move you around a bit. I see these guys all the time. You spend a lot of time and effort learning pro strokes, but vicp thinks that you have lost feel for the ball as a result.
     
  2. dman72

    dman72 Hall of Fame

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    You don't need to watch high speed video, any video will help.


    I just watched a video I recently made, and realized..for the first time..why my high backhand volley sucks so bad...I don't raise my elbow high enough, so I end up chopping at the bottom of the ball..of COURSE it is going to pop up and go long every time.

    This was with a cannon 8 year old digital camera that only had 14 minutes of memory card available....

    Video is a very useful tool.
     
  3. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    My guess is that OP has never lost worst the 2's.
    Sure, the scores might be that, but he missed long and wild, the opponent did not hit nearly as many winners as OP hit losers.
    Hit more conservative if you want to win, learn topspin, which IS conservative, and keep the ball IN above all else.
    Next year, you can go back to hitting hard, armed with the new topspin and control of ball height over the net.
     
  4. torpantennis

    torpantennis Legend

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    Now that I think of it, that's how I also approach the situation. I just step into the court, waiting for a possible short ball to rip a shot to the other side. The point is that if you're positioned well inside the baseline it's quite high percentage shot to rip that short shot to the other side. If OTOH the opponent manages to get the next shot deep, it's most propably so slow that I have enough time to back up to my next shot.

    OP tries to play the percentages. IMO, it's a wasted opportunity in terms of percentages NOT TO STEP into the court after you've hit a great deep shot to the corner. If the opponent can rip a winner past you, it was a low percentage shot and cannot most propably be repeated.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  5. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    To step into the court after your big strong shot, you have to be able to hit the next ball IN, meaning shorter than the service line.
    That is OP's weakness.
     
  6. Velvet Ga el

    Velvet Ga el Rookie

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    Oh, you don't need "high speed" video, although that helps to review your technique. Just any video (GoPro, iPhone, camcorder, etc.) will help because you'll be able to (a) see what you're doing technically and (b) see what you're doing tactically that may give you fits. Either of those things may be your issue now, but without video of your matches, I can only guess as to what the issues are.

    I know we've discussed this before in your forehand/ball machine thread, but it's extremely difficult to analyze what you did in a match during the heat of the moment. That's especially true when you're a newer player (read: under 4.5) and are worried about trying to find a way to get the ball over any way you can. You can try to trial-and-error it, as a lot of rec players go about it just that way (and you appear to notice that as you say none of your opponents videotape it), but I'm telling you from personal experience that video of your matches will rapidly speed up your improvement and it'll give a good coach more focused lessons for you.

    When I was a 3.0, I had all sorts of bizarre notions about weaknesses in my game, but my "evidence" was my very poor recollection of the matches I played. For example, I thought my backhand was terrible and lacking topspin because I didn't drop the racquet head enough under the ball (which, in retrospect, was ridiculous because I crushed my backhand off the ball machine).

    In actuality, once I videotaped my matches, I noticed that my recovery position was terrible (I often moved only a step or two after hitting a DTL shot), my ball recognition was terrible (I moved extremely late relative to better players), that my recovery position and poor ball recognition made me late getting to CC shots to my backhand, and I often got caught lunging for the ball, which basically resulted in me trying to shovel the ball over the net. I focused only on my recovery position for the next two weeks and suddenly my backhand got much better. I would have continued to muddle along without finally seeing what I was truly doing wrong on my videos.

    Even to this day as a newly bumped 4.5, I film just about every match that the opponent will let me. It makes it easy to pinpoint where things may be slipping and where I'm getting beat in points, and it allows me to edit the video and send it to my pro so he can tailor lessons to those points. I've become better at realizing these things in a match, but there are still times where the video reveals something very different than what I thought was happening in the match.

    Just a helpful suggestion to you. You can take it or leave it, but I'd be willing to be you'd find video extremely helpful to your progression.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  7. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

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    I've just suggested to you:
    a) More powerfull strings.
    b) Working on the generating more of your own power...
     
  8. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

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    Exactly....
     
  9. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    Alright, i will try to get some video. i can't record USTA matches or tournaments, but I'll try to record off-the-record singles matches.

    thanks, I don't mean to be a whiny little B1tch.
     
  10. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, that's what my higher rated opponent did to me last night and it was hard to get from side to side to his balls in order to hit winners...I didn't hit as many as I wanted and missed more. He's also fitter and although he had maybe 1/3 of my winners, he won both sets.

    But Anubis is also right, meaning that learning how to hit deep shots might come first, in the natural progression...
     
  11. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Yes, you HAVE to learn to hit deep shots, but hand in hand, you ALSO have to learn to hit short shots, to create extra angles, and to keep the ball inside the baseline.
    You cannot just learn DEEP, without learning SHORT.
     
  12. Velvet Ga el

    Velvet Ga el Rookie

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    Is that a section or local rule? I record all of my USTA league and tournament matches so long as the opponent consents to it. I've never had a league or tournament coordinator say something to me about it.
     
  13. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

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    True, but sharped angled shots are a different beast and those were the ones I was referring to.
     
  14. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    I don't think so, I'm just being polite.
     
  15. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Stroke analysis and frame rate -

    A 30 fps video camera captures one frame every 33 milliseconds.

    Reply #43 details the time and space requirements for stroke analysis. What happens to the ball and racket in the 8 milliseconds around ball contact is shown in 3 frames at 240 fps. http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=8285044&postcount=43

    For detailed stroke analysis high speed video is required. If you use 30 fps you will be limited to seeing the slower motions and could mislead yourself about the racket's interaction with the ball.

    Some of the cameras that you mention might have 120 fps and a fast shutter and are very useful for stroke analysis (but not for the serve).

    For watching a match 30 fps is fine. With a fast shutter and little motion blur some information on the strokes is also available.

    A stroke analysis camera and a match analysis camera have different frame rate requirements.

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=405536&highlight=casio+fh100+chas+tennis+looking
    http://www.kinovea.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?id=435
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014
  16. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    I occasionally hit with a friend who is in his early 80s. Last time I hit with him he was using a head rad OS which is a pretty low powered frame. He tends to string loose.

    He can hit shots all day long that land near the baseline as long as you don't over power him or run him to the corners. Hit it down the middle 1/3 of the court with good but not over powering pace and he hits it back to within 6' of you baseline over 90% of the time. He hits a relatively flat ball with either just a little slice or a little top but he rarely misses his target. He did play d1 tennis 60 years ago.

    So, you can hit deep with a low powered racket as long as you have good racket skills and technique.
     
  17. Rina

    Rina Rookie

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    Most likely you are not finishing your strokes. Follow through every time. May be as simple as that.
     
  18. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    The ball goes long because the racket face is open at contact (if it was closed it would go in the net). It could be open for many reasons. Find your contact point and make sure the racket is perpendicular to the ground at that point in the swing. Make sure that during your swing you aren't changing your wrist position a lot (open, closed, open for example). Make sure you aren't tilting your upper body (front of upper body higher than back). Lots of other possibilities, but these are common.
     
  19. The forehand

    The forehand Rookie

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    Think about only the contact point and positioning. Lose all interest in your take back make it a compact stroke. Just drive through the ball and not do too much extra motions.
     
  20. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    Wow, blast from the past! Actually, I don't really have this issue anymore. In my last 10 matches, I average less than 5 unforced errors from hitting long, per match. But, I couldn't tell you how I've accomplished it. I'm definitely using super powerful frames, so I must be learning control in some other way -- or I'm employing more topspin.
     
  21. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Hall of Fame

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    aren't you using the Head PT280?
     
  22. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Do you mean Too flat a trajectory or without much spin?
     
  23. eelhc

    eelhc Professional

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    This is what I struggle with the most. Particularly on short floaters I should put away. My instincts from all the other sports I played kick in and I run straight at the ball rather than stepping aside and creating space so my arm can swing free. My elbow bends and tucks close to the body and the racquet face opens up. Really frustrating to have a sure winner turn into an UFE.
     
  24. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    No, for some reason it's just too much frame for me. Not because of static or swing weight. It's some other intangible factor that I can't put my finger on. Perhaps its a small sweet spot?

    My two primary sticks are TFight 315 LTDs, 16 mains. One has a static weight of 370 with swing weight of 350 (primary stick), 4 points HL. My other one is static of 360, swing weight of 330, 7 points HL. I also recently picked up a Yonex Tour G 330, so I'll be testing that tonight.

    I don't swing low to high when I hit my forehands. When I'm preparing for the shot, I line up the racquet head with the trajectory of the ball and I swing straight at it, so any topspin that is generated is accidental. That's for normal groundstrokes.

    I do swing low to high on short balls and approach shots, when I need more spin to keep the ball in. But swinging flat into the ball is the only way I know how to inject pace into my shot. If I don't hit with much pace, then I can't win points. I try to maintain a high level of aggression during points, so I don't want too much net clearance nor too much spin. Those things slow the shot down, and my opponents jump all over it.
     
  25. BlackLendl

    BlackLendl New User

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    First of all, I have to say that the amount of technical advice given to this young man Anubis is "Exhausting". I mean some of you guys sound like physics teachers! Forward Enertia while maintaining your kinetic chain with the semi-eastern-conti-westerny grip. Too much. To be honest LeeD is breaking it down into Lay-mens terms. I'd follow his advice first then go with all the scientific s**t! Oh and some advice from me before I'm done. Don't overthink yourself, tennis is suppost to be fun even if you are losing. Instead of topspin, hit some slice, mix things up young man!
     
  26. BlackLendl

    BlackLendl New User

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    First of all, I have to say that the amount of technical advice given to this young man Anubis is "Exhausting". I mean some of you guys sound like physics teachers! Forward Enertia while maintaining your kinetic chain with the semi-eastern-conti-westerny grip. Too much. To be honest LeeD is breaking it down into Lay-mens terms. I'd follow his advice first then go with all the scientific s**t! Oh and some advice from me before I'm done. Don't overthink yourself, tennis is suppost to be fun even if you are losing. Instead of topspin, hit some slice, mix things up young man!
     
  27. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    I think you are missing out on one of the funniest things in tennis if you don't learn to hit a top-spinish drive from the baseline area. My favorites shots are balls near the baseline that I hit hard with topspin on the FH or BH. My opinion is all tennis players of reasonable fitness should work to hit a FH topspin drive with pace and at least a little topspin for control. If you have decent technique and fitness, this is something you can and should accomplish. When you say the only way you can inject pace is to hit straight thru the ball, this makes me think 1. your technique is not where it should be, or 2. your fitness is very bad. If you are over 70 years old, than my advice MAY not be for you and you may want to work on a biting slice but if you can swing the racket with just reasonable RHSpeed, you can learn to pop a FH.

    Also, your equipment specs are a minor concern. You are playing with very heavy rackets. If you like thin beam rackets, you might want to try a MG head Radical Mid+ or OS, or a Volkl 010 25. Both have good feel but they are lighter and should give you more RHSpeed.

    My best advice is to setup 3-4 private lessons with a pro. Maybe the first 2 lessons 1 week apart and the next 2 have them 2 weeks apart. Tell him to work on teaching you a good topspin rally ball with moderate pace and then how to step in and hit a topspin drive ball when opponent leaves it short.

    As I said earlier, one of the funniest things in tennis is hitting a good topspin drive for a winner or that forces an error. My view is you can learn to do this but you aren't going to learn if you continue to cling to your old straight back and straight thru stroke.
     
  28. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    Thanks. i have some footage of recent drills and set play in another thread if you want to see what my FH is like. Never heard the term "forehand topspin drive" before though. Is that really a thing? If I asked a local teaching pro to teach me that, would he know?
     
  29. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Wow, this page of OP's thoughts are an eye opener.
    Not swinging low to high swingpath, then his forehands are going SLOWER than what it appears, and it appears around 60 mph at best.
    Slow and superhigh equates 3.5 level tennis.
    Just WOW. He never watched swingplane videos of the top pros.
     
  30. mad dog1

    mad dog1 Hall of Fame

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    Not sure if you're kidding...Any decent pro knows and teaches the topspin drive. It's the basic stroke used to rally.
     
  31. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    "decent pro" ?????
    Any decent 3.5 once a week player knows to swing from low to high to create topspin that keeps the ball IN and allows them to swing out at the ball so they don't choke on important points.
     
  32. Bendex

    Bendex Professional

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    Make sure your elbow is following through high. This helps with spin and control.
    [​IMG]
     
  33. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Is it technique, or is it targeting height over the net?
    From the baseline, I see lots of balls that clear the net by 5', some even more.
    You can't do that when inside NML, or it's going less than 40 mph or going long.
     
  34. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Anubis this verifies my suspicion that you were using racquets far too heavy for you.

    You need to be able to generate much higher racquet head speed then what you are doing now.

    Maybe go lighter or learn how to use your core. Lots to work on, but you should probably use a racquet that will help you generate tip speed.
     
  35. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    Yes, he should. Tell him you want to learn a FH topspin rally ball with reasonable pace and you want to learn to hit an aggressive FH topspin drive to hurt opponents. When Federer steps in an hits an aggressive FH, it is a flatter shot but it still has lots of spin. Any good teaching pro should know the difference and be able to teach the variations.
     
  36. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    Huh? What are you basing this off of? An old thread that I started a long time ago, in which I have already said that i no longer have this issue... or my more recent thread with new match play footage? That is here: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=507728


    I know I may have my own tennis problems (although my USTA singles record this year is 9-1, so my problems can't be that bad), but when I look at my own footage from my other thread, I don't see any evidence that I'm using a frame that is too heavy. I'm large, stocky and strong enough to handle a 12.5 oz frame, I think.
     
  37. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    The latest video. You just are not generating a lot of racquet head speed.

    It's not about how big or strong you are, its more about technique and how you generate the speed. You aren't setting your feet or using your core enough to hit the ball.

    You were using racquets with a 360+ SW a few weeks back. In order to do that, it really helps to have great footwork and a loose swing.
     
  38. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    I'm definitely going to work on increasing racquet head speed. I'm using the Tour G 330 now in completely stock form, so I have decreased the swing weight from what I was using before.
     
  39. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Amazing racquet. It will test you though. The footwork and core rotation have to be on point, but that's a key part of playing good tennis regardless.

    The Tour G will reward you for good racquet head speed, so it could be ideal to develop your game with as long as you understand it is a little more demanding than other racquets.
     
  40. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    OK, so I'm starting to think that you may have a point: I may be using too much racquet for my skills. Last night my teammates and i had a 3 hour long training session, which included doubles set play, and some singles point play. Between the Yonex and the Tecnifibre, I felt like I was wielding a club. When it was all said and done, I wondered to myself: does it really need to be this hard? Can't I find a racquet that is easy enough to swing with the proper form?

    I'm sure someone else on this site has mentioned before (might have even been you): find the heaviest racquet you can find, yet still be able to swing properly and quickly enough. I think I've reached that point where I want to swing faster, but my equipment isn't letting me.
     
  41. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    That someone else said to find the heaviest racket you can swing, play with, practice with, for THREE hours without fatigue from the racket's weight.
    Have you tried loosening your grip, and hit with racket head speed instead of racket FORCE?
     
  42. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    The Lock N roll tennis site is the best for explaining how to properly swing so make sure and reference that.

    As for the racquet, you are pretty big and the light racquets can hurt form as well.

    It's really hard to speak on someone's personal strength, but I feel like you should give the yonex 3-4 weeks since you have been going back and forth when you post your impressions each night.

    End of the day, the racquet is probably not going to be the issue for you.

    Were you playing the APD stock as well?
     

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