Foreign college thread in the college section

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by tennis5, Jan 16, 2012.

  1. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    This is posted in the college foreign thread.

    Thought the Junior Talk would enjoy reading this too.

    Interesting read from a tennis dad. This is part of a long letter, and I pulled out the paragraphs relevant to this section.

    I hope we can all read this without besmirching Mr. Bryan's character or his sons' talents.

    Wayne Bryan’s Letter To The USTA
    http://www.tennis-prose.com/articles/wayne-bryans-letter-to-the-usta/

    Address the glut of college players in American college tennis.

    This is the big elephant in our tennis living room. The USTAhas never taken a stand on this.
    They even put out a White Paper saying basically that there is no problem.
    I chaired a panel discussion on this two years ago and the four USTA Staffers at the table all said American kids are “no good” and “lazy”. Huh?! There are several million dollars in tennis scholarships going to foreing players whose parents do not spend dollar one in taxes for education in this country. In this dire economy this is unconscionable it seems to me.

    UCSB Story: I made my annual trip up to see my ol’ school UCSB beat UOP on Friday and made a little check contribution to the team, but it broke my heart to see most all the players on both teams being from Hong Kong and Denmark and France, and everywhere but the USA.

    Baylor wins the NCAA Team Title a couple of years ago with six foreign players. What do we do?
    We make their head man theITA Coach of the Year!

    And I had a nice long chat with a Freshman who was watching and supporting the team from Washington DC who couldn’t quite crack the lineup at UCSB and he was saying that he “just wasn’t quite good enough”. That broke my heart and I remembered back to my wonderful days playing there in the late 60s and having everyone on the squad from California (they are all close pals to this day – one a doctor, two lawyers, one in real estate and two still in tennis) and we played maybe one team all year that had one foreign player.

    With 65% of the players being from overseas, it is criminal and most of all, it is a crying shame that American college tennis is now a world class sport. It should be for our American youngsters to enjoy and to derive the wonderful benefits.
    Are those parents of the players from Europe and Asia paying taxes to support UCSB and all the other colleges in this country?
    To ask the question is to answer it.

    European soccer and Japanese baseball have quotas re foreign players.
    As Steve Bellamy points out, to be Miss America you must be from the US.
    To be President of the United States you must be Born in the USA as Bruce Springstein would sing.

    One foreign player per team? – - – fine – - –
    helps international good will and is a nice broadening experience for the guys on the team – - –
    six foregn players?! – - – I say the emperor has no clothes.
    I say burn it down and start over again.
    Time for a revolt.
    Carthage must be destroyed!

    I have been spectacularly unsuccesful in getting this elephant in our American living room removed. I have made speech after speech to coaches and parents in this country and they are 100% behind me and I’ve spoken to the college coaches national meeting in Florida on three occasions in recent years and I’ve hit this topic as hard as only Wayne Bryan can – - – to no avail.

    Lamp Story: Light the lamp in the living room at 8:30 in the evening and it lights up the room and puts a warm glow everywhere. Take that same lamp outside on a Summer day at noon and you cannot see any shine coming from it at all. It is all drowned out by the bright sun. Have only American kids playing college tennis and the crowds will be even bigger and the tennis just fine and exciting. Open college tennis up to the whole world and make it world class and our US kids are diminished. Why not make High School Tennis world class too? Why not have all the foreign coaches come over and take all the jobs away from our American coaches? College tennis should not be a world class sport. It should be for our American kids. And the scholarships should go to them and be helpful to their parents who pay all those taxes and who have supported their children and their tennis and their academics every step of the way.

    It is time for the USTA to stand up and be counted on this issue. It is our USTA juniors who are losing out and paying the price. This glut of foreign players is chilling US junior tennis. When their is no fruit or flowers on the top, the vine dies.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2012
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  2. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Already a thread on the topic.
     
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  3. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Yes, I know... Pulled this out for just the foreign piece. Welcome back btw.
     
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  4. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    Wayne needs to go after the NCAA on this issue not the USTA.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2012
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  5. thepastord

    thepastord New User

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    The vine is dying and will continue to do so. I wish there was a simple answer. Even being a proactive parent doesn't seem to amount to much. One big can of worms, I tell you. Very sad for American student/players. I wish everyone well in their future tennis endeavors. :(
     
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  6. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    I agree 100%
     
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  7. donnymac10s

    donnymac10s Rookie

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    foreigners are not the problem. The problem is the low level of players. Part of the problem being that where foreigners aim for the top (the pros) we aim for college (half-way). When foreigners fail to reach their goals, they can still "settle" for college tennis. When our players fail, they don't make the team (causing people to send angry letters to the USTA). If we want more of our players in college tennis, we should be aiming to develop more pros. A lot will not make it but will find a college spot and scholarship at a decent school. Advice: you (esp. a male) want to play college tennis? Train to be a pro.
     
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  8. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    True. But most of those who disagree will stop reading after your first sentence. If they do read will dismiss and ignore...........the facts.
     
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  9. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    That's a great logical thought and it works. This is the thinking of everyone who is wise ,those that are smart won't except this .
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2012
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  10. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    Don't train to be a pro. "Be all you can be" is a more realistic tact.
     
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  11. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    this post cracks me up on about three different levels.


    BOT......Thanks for sharing Bryan's letter, Tennis 5 !
    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2012
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  12. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    People crack up when their scared or don't understand something , so come back in 4 days 6hrs and 4mins and I will explain it to you .
     
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  13. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Train to be a pro IF you want to play college tennis.

    Ok, let me break it down, the first part...

    Train to be a pro.

    Hmmm, that would require 100% of my time as a junior.

    So, let me drop out of school and do that 2 hour a thingy on the computer

    so I am completely illiterate when I get to college.

    Write a thesis, study physics, do trig, string a couple of words into a coherent sentence....

    no, I can't do any of those things as I am training to be a pro.

    Four years later, I am like 99.9% of the population, and the pros is out of my reach

    (also I have no one to fund traveling for the year, another story in itself),

    so, now time to go to college......

    Gee, I have no study skills, and I am completely unprepared for the rigors of a demanding college.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2012
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  14. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    This article and video dates back about a year. No matter which side of the fence you sit on, I find the video fascinating. Once the video loads, press 1 to listen in Russian, press 2 to listen in French, press 3 to listen in German, etc... I'm not sure if there's an English speaking version. Enjoy!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12561534
     
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  15. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    ^Hahha, and it's the BBC...what do they know about English over there, haaah!

    Well, glad you posted that. I had heard about it but missed it last year.
     
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  16. justinmadison

    justinmadison Semi-Pro

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    I just watched it and it is in English.
     
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  17. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    Please excuse my ignorant about foreign college players.

    Here is my question. Are there a lot of foreign college players in other sports, football, baseball, basketball, volleyball, track/field, ....etc?

    Is the problem unique to tennis and tennis scholarships bleeding out to feed foreign recruits?
    If the case is the worst for tennis,.....then is one of the reasons is... not enough American kids playing tennis (preferred other sports)???.... or college tennis coaches are so competitive and trying too hard to get great foreign recruits????.... and ignore our American junior tennis players that should fill up the spots first.

    Perhaps, rules, quota or college coaches'attitude should change to PRO American kids more.

    Just a thought!
     
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  18. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Wrong.

    Coaches got the bright idea (and cash) that why not give a scholarship to an foreign ex-pro who is several years older than an American freshman, who already knows how to do laundry, manage their time, have experience at the pro level, no need to develop the American, basically no hand holding by the coach.

    These foreigners made life easy for the "lazy" American college coaches.

    ------------------------
    Only one of two on TCF ignore list
     
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  19. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    I played college tennis in the late 80s. There were more and more guys from other countries. I liked it. They were cool. It was a really good level.

    They now represent 2/3 of the ranked players. I read Wayne Bryan's article and I cannot help but agree, even though I would not have agreed with it a decade or two ago.

    Sure, Stanford will dominate if it's all US kids. But it's about being a student-athlete and striving for that level. I want that for my kids. If it's not an option at a school that is an academic fit, that'll be tough.

    But if we get all protectionist...and the level drops, is that really so bad for our youth? I think it'll inspire them to play well...rather than discourage them, which looks like it is the case now, according to Wayne Bryan.

    Anyway, there might be something to the whole no scholarship for foreign players concept.

    Either that or American kids embrace the DIII idea. And that might not happen in families with big conference affinities.

    For my kids, I just hope they work hard at school, sports and emphasize character and effort. Praying that whatever is a good fit in HS and college will be wonderful.
     
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  20. donnymac10s

    donnymac10s Rookie

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    Well, hey, "the world needs ditch-diggers too" (sorry for the Caddyshack reference but it fits). Foreigners don't seem to share the same concerns. Apparently, they are well prepared to do both. Maybe they're simply academically, mentally and athletically superior...
     
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  21. donnymac10s

    donnymac10s Rookie

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    I loved the foreign competition when I was playing. I loved foreign and US teammates equally. If, despite all the great resources this country offers, you cannot play d-1 because some guy who's first or second generation in tennis shoes steals your spot, then you don't deserve to play college tennis to begin with (or play JC, d-2, d-3, NAIA or intramural)
     
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  22. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Pulled this over from the foreign college tennis thread:
    ( poster lives in a European country currently and gave their insights on life over there)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by justinmadison
    I can assure you that no European country would put themselves in the position of having all their spots taken by Americans.
    They are very protective of their investments in society and believe it should benefit locals before foreigners, especially Americans.
     
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  23. andfor

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    Uh, European countries are not founded on the same basis as the United States of America. You may want to consider history. Many of us Americans don't feel the need to be compared to Europe or any other country for that matter that does not have college sports. While I feel the amount of foreigners playing college tennis is problematic, they are not the problem. The problem is not enough qualified American junior tennis players are available every year to fill all the tennis scholarships and roster spots.
     
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  24. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    Too many Americans work their butt off and play the best they can. There are tons of junior players that did their best growing up. They just do not have the talent of some other players. It is a shame this group does not get to play college tennis while people from other countries fill their spots. I have lots of friends who I play tennis with that are teaching pros and from other countries. They came here on a free ride since they played tennis. They are great people. I just do not like the idea of Americans losing out to foreigners.
     
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  25. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    With respect. Your American friends who did their best in junior tennis and did not play in college, did so by choice. Show me a H.S tennis player above beginner level and I can show them a college tennis program where they can play.
     
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  26. donnymac10s

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    This is so true... working with top U18 junior player right now. I tell him that he needs to do 'this' on the court and 'that' in the gym or on track. He (won several big tournaments) tells me "that's too much work; it's too hard.." But this is the stuff that I do RIGHT NOW...and my college days are well behind me. I don't need a scholarship; I don't need to make the team; I don't care about wins or rankings...and I still work harder (perhaps out of habit) than these kids. And I have a day job. Then they complain how there aren't scholarships or spots available. Give me a break...
     
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  27. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    I agree, I did not explain correctly. Sure they can play at smaller colleges. There are too many foreign players taking up scholarships at big schools. It makes it harder for people who are not as skilled but worked hard as a junior when they are looking for tennis teams to play on. You are correct. They can play at smaller schools.
     
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  28. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Tell us what you mean by "qualified" American juniors?

    --------------
    only one of two on TCF ignore list
     
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  29. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Appropriately qualified based on results and skill to play at the University of their choice.
     
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  30. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Think about it .....

    You loved the foreign competition when you were playing.

    I loved the foreign competition when I was playing.

    ok......

    BUT, NOW MANY TEAMS ARE ALL FOREIGNERS.

    HOW CAN ANY AMERICAN, TODAY, LOVE THE FOREIGN COMPETITION

    WHEN THEY ( THE AMERICAN ) ARE NOT EVEN ON THE TEAM?
     
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  31. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    In response to your statement in bold, IMO, the problem is lazy/unethical coaches.

    -------------------
    Only one of two on TCF ignore list!
     
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  32. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    Donnymac, I definitely don't want to post anything personal but I do feel that your posts (above quote and others in this thread) were biased against American junior tennis players. You definitely had played D1 college tennis and perhaps.......on foreign tennis scholarship. Nothing wrong with that since you probably deserved that.
    However, to say that American Tennis players in general are not working hard and don't deserve to play D-1 tennis is a cruel comment. Tons of American kids work real hard in tennis and academics, not just foreign players. Many of these hard working American kids have fewer chances of getting to play D-1 or getting scholarship if coaches are more interested in foreign recruits. It appears to be the case.
     
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  33. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Nice post.

    I would add the following to the second to last sentence:

    "Many of these hard working American kids have fewer chances of getting to play D-1 or getting scholarship if coaches are more interested in non-american recruits who are 1.5 - 2 years older (& who have possibly played on the pro circuit for a year or two)....... than 18 y/o american HS seniors.


    I agree with Hacker that many (if not most) college coaches are lazy &/or unethical.

    Anybody go to a college match featuring these mid 20 y/o non-americans? Didn't think so......all one hears are a few grunts & crickets.
     
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  34. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    One of the mistakes us Americans make is to try and dominate each age group year after year , if your player is and Open player in the juniors by the time they are 14 they should start playing local mens opens and future event when they can get in .

    in doing this the player starts to see a different level that is out there and will often run into some of these college players that are from different countrys and see what they have to work on . Trust me this is a great way of finding out what you have to do to haved a better chance of making a team,,,,, play with the juniors be a junior play with the men become a man .
     
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  35. jht32

    jht32 Rookie

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    People on one side of argument say that "the American juniors are not working hard enough," which you consider a cruel comment.

    People on the other side of the argument say that "the American college coaches are lazy (and unethical to boot)." Would you also consider this to be a cruel comment?
     
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  36. andfor

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    Good point.

    Those who argue against the coaches are not looking at the facts and numbers. There are simply too many D1 tennis programs to be filled by enough competitively competent American juniors who can contribute to each team. Compounding that, many 3, 4 star type players, some 5 stars and a Blue Chip or two every year sign with non-D1 schools. This makes the college coaches job to find impact players or players that can develop into contributors (wins) almost impossible. They fill their need with foreign talent.

    Coaches tennis programs are expected to win. Expecting a coach at a D1 program to settle for players who can not win is unrealistic. I see many D1 programs accepting 1 and 2 star players every year.

    Everyone knows there are D1 tennis scholarships out there for those willing to consider lesser known and sometimes out of the way schools.
     
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  37. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    Same here. Thanks to telephones and email, I am still in touch with my teammates from Europe and South America. One lives in FL now, one in TX, one in Canada....the others went back home.

    But things have changed and I totally see Wayne Bryan's point.

    also, NAIA, D3 or juco's might not be a 'fit' for everyone.
     
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  38. donnymac10s

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    So you think that coach should go with weaker American players than better foreign players? I loved foreign competition because I loved challenging myself. I didn't expect for everyone to lower the level of the game for my benefit. If I was close to losing a scholly to a foreign teammate I made sure to outwork all of them. But I grew up with a mentality: I am not entitled to squat and I kne[o]w it! You want something in this life; in this country? You have to earn it.
     
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  39. donnymac10s

    donnymac10s Rookie

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    totally agree!
     
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  40. donnymac10s

    donnymac10s Rookie

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    1. I was not on a foreign tennis scholarship. 2. Not to brag, but to get into D-I, I'd play tennis 3.5 hrs a day (often on the ball machine, serves, sets with anyone and everyone) and work out for at least 1 hour after that. Thereafter: homework. 3. I had no coach. 4. I hardly played any junior tournaments (parents couldn't afford it). 5. I couldn't wait to test my skills against all players: foreign and domestic. If I failed, I only blamed myself for not working hard enough...and I LOVED the challenge. With the exception of very, very few players, I'm afraid that most of our wonderful juniors have the attitude of jaded playboys. "You want me to jump rope for how long?" "Hitting on the ball machine is boring". "I don't like practicing serves". "I hate running". "I can't concentrate for more than 1-1.5 hrs". "It's too hot; it's too hard; I don't like that drill; it's too windy; my tummy hurts". I've heard it all.. from TOP juniors.
     
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  41. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    First.....OH my God! What kind of juniors do you know?

    Please don't lump all juniors in one category.
    It really makes it hard to believe you work with American juniors if you think that this is how they behave,
    although I can't say many good things about the academy kids,
    but it's more of big cheats, throw their garbage all over the place, trash talk, or can't talk.

    In the Northeast, tennis is a fortune.
    The juniors are thrilled to be there and value every minute of it otherwise they would be doing something else. Period.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
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  42. donnymac10s

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    You're telling me not to lump all juniors in one category and you seem to be lumping all academy kids in a category. I find that amusing. But I have lived and worked with juniors from mid-west, Pacific Northwest and California (N. and S. Cal). I have seen kids who think (oooh I can play with fonts, too) that they work hard but, in reality, their idea of hard work is that they are not playing video games as much as the computer nerds. I don't blame the kids; I blame the parents. A generation of children raising children.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
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  43. justinmadison

    justinmadison Semi-Pro

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    No need to brag. How about just telling us your real name so we can see your results?
     
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  44. donnymac10s

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    Anyone interested in my results or level can feel free to fly out to California and come out for a couple of sets...on me.
     
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  45. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    Sorry to hear that you had such bad experience with "WHINEY" American TOP juniors. If you were one of American tennis juniors who deserved D-1 tennis programs, I am certain and (you know it) that there are lots of American junior players who work as hard in tennis, conditioning and academics for opportunity to play D-1.
    The point is if they are not considered because 1. already been stereotyped that American juniors are lazy and whiney 2. college coaches go directly looking at foreign pools 3. foreign players are older, already tried pro tour now wanting to go to American colleges full ride....... eventually, there will be very few American juniors playing D-1 college tennis.

    I do not think that is true in other college sports. Americans are MINORITY in college tennis!? but not in other sports!? Correct me if I am wrong (that was my previous question posted).

    I believe, wholeheartedly, that there are numbers of TALENTED, DRIVEN, HARD-WORKING American junior tennis players who want to play college tennis if they are given the opportunity.
    The TOP junior slackers probably believe in innate ability but not hard work to acheive their goals. They need attitude adjustment, tough love and should learn to respect their coaches!
     
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  46. donnymac10s

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    Points 1 and 2: I disagree. I don't believe that college coaches stereotype players based on nationality. The fact is that with a lot of tournaments being played, they form an opinion based on direct observation and conversation with people (other coaches) who are familiar with the players in question. Also, it's more expensive (and riskier) for a college coach to consider a foreigner. From my experience, this is usually last resort after all other suitable US candidates are reviewed and discarded. Regarding point #3: I agree - that's where things should be (and currently are) equalized. Not allow older foreigners to compete against HS graduates. Also, I believe that there are more foreigners in college tennis than other sports because college tennis is truly a global sport (unlike baseball, football or even basketball). If it's not soccer, foreigners don't usually care about other sports.

    "I believe, wholeheartedly, that there are numbers of TALENTED, DRIVEN, HARD-WORKING American junior tennis players who want to play college tennis if they are given the opportunity." Help me understand this: are you saying that they must be given the opportunity AND THEN they will start working hard? Sounds a bit backwards to me...
     
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  47. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    I have nothing against foreign players, they are some of the best kids, but my main reason against so many foreigners on college teams is that American tennis is suffering.

    Less American kids playing college tennis=less kids playing in the future.
     
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  48. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    If several college rosters are constantly packed with foreign recruits, the message sent to parents and juniors are that the opportunity or chances to be there is not wide open for American kids. That is another point that discourage or turn kids away to other sports.

    BTW, stereotype that American juniors are lazy and whiney was indicated in your posts and ....I hope no college coaches believe that.
     
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  49. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    People don't get it you must start young and have them in advanced conditioning by the time they are 14cause the spots they will be fighting for will be against men , our player certain times of the year is doing 2 a days in the weight room to have the edge if he ever wanted to go to college , trust me at this point he could choose and pick in 3 years.
     
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  50. donnymac10s

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    I am not in the business of recruiting players or in performing player due diligence for college coaches. College coaches are grown-ups and they know more than tennis parents give them credit for.

    If several college rosters are constantly packed with foreign recruits, the message that the parents SHOULD get is: have your kids work harder and stop being so picky when it comes to schools. I have had several discussions with current coaches at great D-1 schools (perhaps not "great" in tennis) who say that it's difficult to get Americans to play at their programs because: 1. the school doesn't have a great Football team (foreigners don't care about that); 2. the school is in a small town and there's nothing to do (foreigners don't care about that); 3. the school is in some fly-over state (foreigners don't care about that); 4. the school doesn't have a robust sorority/fraternity system (foreigners don't care about that). At the same time, the coaches are under a great deal of pressure to be competitive in order to save the programs and their own jobs! What are they to do? Go with the Americans who want to play there (but who are simply not good enough) and have the tennis programs chopped because it's not competitive enough?! I appreciate your convictions but you have to look at the whole picture.
     
    #50

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