Foreign college thread in the college section

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by tennis5, Jan 16, 2012.

  1. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    I have to disagree.

    Your views are skewed. Your post sounds like you are working with wealthy kids, who think they are entitled to everything.
    Reality is that there is a large pool of middle class junior players who can't qualify for finaid, and are dependent on their parents for financial support for college.
    These kids worked hard at their games/academics, playing the USTA tournament system, but they have no chance against a foreigner.
     
  2. donnymac10s

    donnymac10s Rookie

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    You're partially accurate. Some of the kids I've had the pleasure to work with (and they were all a pleasure to work with) have come from wealthy backgrounds. However, some don't have a pot to p-$$ in and still act entitled. Have some of the kids you're talking about contact coaches from: Alcorn State, Allegheny College, Armstrong Atlantic, Arkansas at Pine Bluff, Augusta State, Austin Peay University, Barton College, Bethune-Cookman, etc. But no, our kids complain that they're not getting into USC, UCLA, Stanford, Duke or Virginia. It's not that they don't have a chance against foreigners...it's that they're limiting their choices to schools that are competitive. One of my college team-mates who is a D-1 coach at a school in CA just texted me and said "I have difficulty attracting American players to my program. I HAVE TO RECRUIT FROM OUTSIDE OTHERWISE I'LL LOSE MY JOB. American players don't find our school sexy enough"
     
  3. justinmadison

    justinmadison Semi-Pro

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    Why does the name of the school need to be a secret? Tell us the name so we can look up the school and see who is on the team and who is on the “interested” list on TRN.
     
  4. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    A dad said to me the other day, who played D1, that if he faced the same competition today, he is not sure he would get a spot.

    This dad who did get a spot, years ago, has invested that love of tennis in his son.

    Now, if the son doesn't get a spot,
    will that junior then turn into a dad who then doesn't instill the love of tennis in his son
    as he knows there are no spots for Americans?

    It is a downward spiral for American tennis when you take away the opportunities.

    Foreigners in American college tennis and the bizarre reductions that the USTA has coming up will be the nail in the coffin.
     
  5. donnymac10s

    donnymac10s Rookie

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    Because he hasn't authorized me to release the name of the school (my friend's job being on the line). But check out the D-1 rankings and roster and I'm sure you'll be able to figure out the place.
     
  6. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    D1 tennis at the top schools and conferences, just like basketball baseball and football are for Bluechips and 5 stars. If the kid is good enough he won't have any problems. If he's relying in a legacy, good luck to him.
     
  7. justinmadison

    justinmadison Semi-Pro

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    There are 263 NCAA DI men’s tennis programs. If they average 3 new players each year there are 789 spots. There are 25 blue-chip and 50 5 star players. That sounds pretty bleak for American tennis.

    I guess if you count the top 25 programs that works out to 75 spots. If you go top 75 programs it would be 1 American and 2 foreign players for each school.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
  8. justinmadison

    justinmadison Semi-Pro

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    There are 950 men’s tennis programs. They break down to 263 NCAA DI, 161 NCAA DII, 314 NCAA DIII, 92 NAIA and 120 NJCAA tennis programs.

    For men there are 4.5 scholarships for NCAA DI and DII programs, 5 per team NAIA and up to 9 for NJCAA schools.

    I guess if it were limited to American players you could go to TRN and look down 2850 players and find the cutoff for kids playing college tennis. Unfortunately there are not 2800 players listed for any graduating year.
     
  9. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    And I said top schools, top conferences. 4 stars can also play in to the mix on occasion. That said there's plenty of options for 4,3 and even 2 stars at mid-majors and small DI programs. Your numbers back up what I've said all along. There's not enough Americans playing tennis to fill all the roster spots. Add in DII, DIII, NAIA and NJCAA programs and where are the coaches going to get there players?
     
  10. donnymac10s

    donnymac10s Rookie

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    One thing to keep in mind is that just because a division authorizes the issuance of scholarships it doesn't mean that the schools have the ability to, in fact, fund the scholarships.
     
  11. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    .....so if a 3 star American junior wants a shot at a D1 tennis spot, he/she has to PLAY QUALIFYING matches against foreign players to prove to college coaches that they deserve to be considered?:( Just a joke!!

    ......You know, blue-chip and 5 star TRN players are limited to 75 male or female junior tennis players each graduation year.
     
  12. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Very few dads who played D1 baseball, basketball, football, hockey, whatever a generation ago would be able to get a spot on a D1 roster today with their generation-ago skills.

    This is not a situation unique to tennis.

    And this does not mean there is a downward spiral in baseball, football etc.

    Tennis players in the US have not been able to keep up with the state of the art in their sport as much as US athletes in other sports
     
  13. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Why can't 3-4 stars play at those schools?
     
  14. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    According to you statement, who is at fault, the teaching pros of America?
     
  15. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  16. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Often when it comes to winning at the top schools and confereces that's the case, foreigners or no foreigners.

    There's a place in college tennis for junior players if they are open to more than a few select schools and tennis programs.
     
  17. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Lots of sports in the US have benefited, I think, from new waves of "hungry" classes of society taking part in the sport.

    A list of the middleweight boxing champions in the mid-20th century reads almost like a list of immigrant waves into the country. Each new group...Irish, Italian, German, Jew.....was hungrier than the one before and fought its way to the top....and advanced the sport

    Baseball used to be all white. Blacks' involvement brought the game to a new level. And what do we have today? A newer and hungrier group--Latinos--outshining both the whites and the blacks and moving the game to a new level.

    These are generalizations, of course. There are still good white and black baseball players.

    But I still think there is validity in the observation that new blood....mostly in the form of hungrier classes of society....moving into sports has been a key factor in promoting the advancement of skill levels in those sports.

    For various reasons we have not seen this phenomenon in US tennis. At the same time, there has been significant global growth in the sport.....far outstripping that of baseball, football etc. I think these factors account for the stagnation (or decline) of US tennis relative to the level of play globally.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
  18. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Great point.....

    In the winter Nationals, 16's,
    a freshman beat a junior in the back draw. SF?
    But, after that freshman, who I believe is a bit older, there are only 24 spots left in the blue chips.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
  19. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I am tired. My writing skills are going down here because everyone missed my point.

    I am not talking legacy.

    I am talking about continuing the love of a sport.
     
  20. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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  21. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    Coaches choose players for what their perceived ability of the recruit's success will be at the collegiate level, irrespective of their junior ranking. That means that players with more than junior experience will have an advantage. That also means that bigger stronger players will have an advantage--the average pro tennis player is now 6'2". For whatever reason, the players competing at the Futures level who are bigger, are frequently non-American, for whatever reason. I can easily speculate, but that is another subject. However, that is a fact. They are also more disciplined, mature, and focused than most American players on the circuit, and many, have to win to earn money for their families back home to put food on the table. That's real, and much more real life than fulfilling the dream of being a "great" tennis player, which is usually the mindset of most American players on the circuit. Recruiting that player over an American junior, is a no brainer. When I was coaching DI, and I received the scouting reports, which were almost exclusively international players, the first thing that I would look at was height and weight. If the player was under 6'0", but over 5'10", I put him in the review pile. Any smaller, and his report went into the trash. Many coaches do that as well, which, is also another reason why international players get a better look.

    Many academically inclined students take a "Gap Year", and do something before college. Princeton, actually has a Bridge Year Program. Why many American parents don't do this, IMPO, is illogical, especially since it is a known fact that many of the excesses and negatives associated with bad behavior on college campuses occurs due to the immaturity of incoming freshman, which are bad habits carried throughout their college careers. If I were still coaching college tennis, I would certainly recruit an American junior who took a gap year and played men's open and/or Futures events over the same ranked junior straight out of high school. That kid would be stronger, faster, accustomed to grown men as opponents, far more independent, disciplined, and focused, and less apt to follow the crowd, indulge in binge drinking, or rush a frat--something every coach abhors. I have recommended this to many of my players and advisees, and personally, had my own son follow said advice. That led to him getting Futures WCs, recruited to a ridiculous amount of colleges, attending the college of his choice, showered with money, and very mature and ready for his first day in class, without being neither academically--as a prep school kid he never went to bed before 1 AM--nor athletically burned-out, and he was not a high ranked junior, mostly because of his academic course load.
     
  22. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    If the foreign player is 20-21 and has been playing pro for a year or two, he will not be a freshman in eligibility. Neither would a domestic player who did the same thing for a year or two. This point has been made repeatedly in this thread.

    This thread is just repeating the same statements, over and over, and a good bit of the reason is that people are not listening to the points being made.
     
  23. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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  24. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Could not agree more. I made the point a page or two ago, that it appears if someone is on the anti-foreign side of the argument they stop reading once they determine what they are reading is not in agreement with their position. It's the anti-foreign camp that seems to know the least about the rules.

    This has been reviewed many times. It does not matter what year it says the player is on the college team internet roster or in the program. What matters is when the player graduated H.S. From H.S. graduation time, in D1 tennis they have 5 years to complete 4 years of eligibility. Also, the athlete has 4 years to complete H.S. from the time they enter their freshman year.
    For D1 tennis the college eligibility clock starts 6 months from the time of H.S. graduation.
     
  25. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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  26. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Not angry just stating what I see since I've been on this and other topics of this matter since the beginning. The latest and only change I know of regarding age, and I could could be off, is the NCAA changed the sitting out period from one year to 6 months. I thought that went in effect last year. I've posted the NCAA rules here about 6 or 7 times. I don't claim to have them memorized but know them better than the average non-college tennis coach. I too am open to correction, clarification, education, etc.

    BTW. Did not know I was being asked to clarify something so I'm certainly not dodging anything. Your statement about the age of incoming Americans vs. Foreigners according to others on the board is correct. This is another issue that's been addressed more than once. And one that been addressed at the D1 level by starting the eligibility clock 6 months from graduation.

    Check out the NCAA rules when you can. If you can't find them and really want to look them over let me know.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2012

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