Foreigners! I have to eat my words

Discussion in 'College Tennis Talk' started by tennismom42, Oct 26, 2009.

  1. tennismom42

    tennismom42 Semi-Pro

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    Well, in the past I've asserted that the "foreigners taking up scholarships" issue wasn't that bad. After this weekend's D1 tournament, I have to eat my words. I still believe that anyone can come to the USA colleges. I just think the coaches are doing a bad job of comparing the foreign talent to the domestic talent.

    So, my son played in a D1 tournament this w/e.

    I counted the foreigners listed and the US kids.

    USA = 18
    Foreigners = 24

    Hmmmmmm

    However, I maintain the college coaches should figure out a better way to compare the foreigner recruits to domestic recruits. Maybe the USA recruits should play some more ITFs, to give the coaches something to compare against.??

    Keep in mind that being on the Roster does NOT mean that they got scholarship money.

    Most of the foreigners lost (a lot and early). My son beat two foreigners. One played >100 ITF tournaments, the other >60. Similar results for all, some scores were even embarassing.

    So, maybe the USTA development program does work. But I am not ready to eat those words yet either. I am still walking that fence.

    (Foreign countries represented:

    Belarus
    Brazil
    Canada
    Columbia
    Ecuador
    England
    Israel
    India
    Mexico
    Netherlands
    Russia
    Serbia
    Spain
    Turkey
    Uganda
     
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  2. atatu

    atatu Hall of Fame

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    I don't know that much about this issue, I go to watch UT (Texas) play and they have a mix of kids from overseas and kids from the US. However, my question is do you think it is strictly about talent ? Or maybe some of the kids from overseas are easier to coach or are more serious about academics ?
     
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  3. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Which regional? Or, can you give us stats on how many foreign and USA kids made the round of 16 and quarters, etc.?
     
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  4. tennismom42

    tennismom42 Semi-Pro

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    Host site did not post a PDF draw, which is kind of rare. I'll see if I can get it from them.
     
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  5. atatu

    atatu Hall of Fame

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    #5
  6. Falloutjr

    Falloutjr Banned

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    I think it's a matter of just having a huge recruiting budget and not wanting to compete with other schools for American players and not enough American talent. When you have money, you have access to talent. In a sport that's played worldwide, there will be competition from other countries for their athletes. Look at baseball; the majority of players in the MLB are Latin/Dominican, etc.

    I'm sure college soccer is the same as tennis (I'm not as knowledgeable about college soccer though, so this may not be correct), but the majority of the world's soccer talent just doesn't come from the U.S. because soccer here isn't a priority sport, whereas, to the rest of the world, soccer is THE thing. Thus, there's more players and more talent. If you look at high schools throughout the country, there's MAYBE 4 or 5 states that can consistently produce 6.0+ players to compete in D1, but in states with cold weather or where it's not a priority compared to other sports, you get more foreign players because you need to fill the rosters and be competitive. States like California and Florida and Arizona and Texas don't HAVE to go out of the country to fill a team, but elsewhere, all is fair game.
     
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  7. tennismom42

    tennismom42 Semi-Pro

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    Um I find a lot of flaws in what you wrote. I think their budgets are the same for scholarship offerings... 4.5 scholarships per men's tennis team. I think the "budget" you speak of will be for things most players take for granted, i.e. 1st class airfare or greyhound, fitness room or set of dumbells & and bench, etc.

    This tournament was all coastal teams.

    I would venture that most of the top 100 do not play for their High Schools, they are in independent learning situations.
     
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  8. Falloutjr

    Falloutjr Banned

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    Having the same number of scholarships does not mean you have the same amount of money to recruit. Some coaches don't have the money to fly out of the country to go meet and see international players, and some do. Those who do generally get the player. And they probably are, but there are definitely exceptions and from what I hear, there are SoCal teams that are 6.0 and their JV teams are on the higher end of 5.0, so there is a TON of talent to choose from; players that are, indeed, in a traditional school situation. Players that travel internationally most definitely do some sort of internet schooling or home schooling, but to the people who simply can't afford that, they just plan on playing in college on a free ride and hope to advance to a pro career from there.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2009
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  9. tennismom42

    tennismom42 Semi-Pro

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    If they travel internationally or all over this nation, remind me why they NEED a scholarship?
     
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  10. Falloutjr

    Falloutjr Banned

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    No one is going to pay a hundred thousand dollars for school if they don't have to.
     
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  11. tennismom42

    tennismom42 Semi-Pro

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    So, I guess what you're saying is that those that can buy their way up the rankings are always the best the only ones that deserve scholarships and a college education. Everyone else is just junk and unworthy?\ Tread lightly, Rookie.
     
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  12. ttbrowne

    ttbrowne Hall of Fame

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    We've discussed this at length before but the college coaches are just trying to.....win. Bottom line. If there's a kid from Albania who is already #766 on the ATP rankings and he wants to go to college in the states, why wouldn't a coach try to get him?
    The day the AD calls the coach into his office and says, "I don't care about a winning program as much as I do about how many American boys you have on the roster." Then that will be the day when it all changes.
     
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  13. GeoffB

    GeoffB Rookie

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    I suspect that this is just a numbers game. American universities have much more developed sports programs than almost any other country. The difference is that tennis is a very international sport.

    So, you have people from all over the world wanting to join college tennis programs, but only one nation with a highly developed system of college scholarships and programs. As a result, US born athletes have to compete with international kids for spots in the US, but unfortunately, there really aren't any international college programs to balance it out (i.e., international students coming to the US aren't balanced out by US students playing overseas).
     
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  14. Falloutjr

    Falloutjr Banned

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    I'm saying the ones who buy their way up in the rankings are going to get the most recognition by coaches, and coaches are looking for players who can come to their programs and play well and have solid match play results against very high levels of competition, and a scholarship is the easiest way to entice someone to come to their school. If you could get a free education, would you take it or give it up?

    I'm in no way saying players who have participated in fewer tournaments are lesser players. I AM, however, saying players who travel around the world and play in international tournaments have a more well-known reputation, and the coach's ability to see their results against high-level competition, competition of the caliber they would likely see at a high D1 school, is easier to access. They can watch the players and see what they like, don't like, how they play and how they match up against other different styles of players. It's not that they're better or worse than the player who doesn't travel, it's that they're more proven. It's harder to make those kinds of decisions based on someone that isn't really on the radar. There could be world-class players playing out in the middle of nowhere against each other right now, and we don't know about them because they aren't out there for everyone to see.
     
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  15. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

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    Still trying to work out how you got that from his post - looks like classical projection though. The last sentence, it's just screwy.
     
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  16. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I saw a segment on the Sanchez academy in Spain on Tennis channel and the director said 98% of their students get college scholarships in the US. Clearly that is a big motivating factor for them.
     
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  17. Kick_It

    Kick_It Semi-Pro

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    I think it is hard for college coaches to get a good read on just how good foreigners are during the recruiting phase.

    Coaches can't just go to a big nearby tournament and see many of these players play.

    About the only "sure-fire" way I can think of is to go by ITF or other well recognized tournament records; e.g. if someone is top 50 in the world in 18 and under singles - and has competed well (won at least 3 rounds) in top flight int'l competition - chances are they'll do well in NCAA tennis. Recognize if they're really good - they'd rather go pro than college - so it isn't as easy as it may seem for coaches.

    Also - new foreigners are still adapting to being away from home, family, friends, and the different sites and conditions. They'll adapt.

    FWIW my team had 3 foreign players on scholarship over 20 years ago.
     
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  18. tennismom42

    tennismom42 Semi-Pro

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    Well, I got the draw. It was on-line in about 4 pitch.

    Amazingly I am stumped, I can't read some of it. I understand flights, but at the bottom of each flight are two more little draws. I think the goal was to keep them playing through Sunday, no matter what?

    I guess I'll have to count up the wins & loss (USA vs. Foreigners). ClarkC, your profile does not accept emails or else I'd send it to you. Can you change your profile to allow emails??
     
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  19. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Yes, the regionals all had consolation brackets.

    I fixed the email problem.
     
    #19
  20. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Stats from the just-finished ITA Atlantic Regional:

    Round of 16: 8 Americans, 8 foreign

    4 matches were 1 American vs. 1 foreign (Americans won 3, lost 1)
    4 matches were 2 Americans or 2 foreign players

    Quarterfinals: 5 Americans, 3 foreign players

    3 matches were 1 American vs. 1 foreign (Americans won 2, lost 1)
    1 match was 2 Americans

    Semifinals: 3 Americans, 1 foreign
    Foreign player won his semi

    Finals: 1 American, 1 foreign
    Match not played

    Americans did fine, but foreign players were not outclassed by any means.

    The stats look pretty good for Americans because Americans from the University of Virginia won some matches against foreign players from schools that are lower ranked than Virginia.

    The Baylor coach used to explain why he recruited foreign players so much: Because not a lot of American kids dream about playing in Waco, Texas. Once Baylor got nationally prominent, he has mixed up the recruiting and signed some top Americans.

    Some of these schools whose foreign players were good but lost to Virginia's American players are not going to attract top American juniors. VCU (Virginia Commonwealth University) is a mostly-commuter school in downtown Richmond. The only sports they have really excelled at over the years have involved lots of foreign recruits.

    Check out the 2000 NCAA Men's tournament. Which team went on a run, beating Virginia and Ole Miss and other top teams before losing to Stanford in the final? VCU. Tell me they could have attracted the American juniors to do that. They would have to be just a half-step behind Stanford in recruiting American players. Should I go to Stanford to play tennis, or VCU? There's a big question for American juniors!

    I see lots of pretty good foreign players in this part of the country at East Tennessee State, Middle Tennessee State, etc. Do those kind of schools have a shot at blue chip and 5-star American recruits?

    I have seen foreign recruits go to some of these schools and appear to be overrated or mis-evaluated by their coaches, but I think coaches at second-tier schools are doing the best they can.
     
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  21. tennismom42

    tennismom42 Semi-Pro

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    I recently saw the job posting for the VCU coach. It struck me funny that they want a coach that speaks 4 foreign languages, so they can accommodate foreign recruits. LOL 4 foreign languages. LMAO!
     
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  22. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    That is really weird. After all, the students have to take classes in English, and that is their main job. How many tennis coaches know 4 foreign languages, and how important is that compared to his/her coaching ability?
     
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  23. cmb

    cmb Semi-Pro

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    after reading this post I and being bored at the moment I felt like making a reply.

    I don't know what tournament this is and what schools are playing, and also what players the coaches sent to the tournaments.

    Its easy to say on paper that US players fared slightly better, but did the foreigners come from low level schools? were they foreigners that are playing out of the lineups in the spring?

    You mention that college coaches should find a way to judge US talent better.
    The answer would be to have an accurate ranking system which the US does not have. Its impossible for junior kids to play against college/Pro players without playing futures tournaments which cost alot of money and does not help junior ranking, so most kids will chose to spend the money on junior tournaments, so when caught in this circle they don't get exposure to pros and not only can coaches not gauge potential, they also don't play against older and better players so they don't progress their games.

    I feel like people like tennismom see that there is a problem, but they don't see the real problem, they only see one part of it.

    Players from Spain, France, Germany, Italy, have strong national circuits where players can play for national ranking points and money. They get to play against better players and they dont lose thousands of dollars like US kids. This give them more exposure to pros and college coaches get to see how they stack up.

    If the states had a more efficient national ranking and tournament schedule where players like her son could get good matches without having to break the bank playing futures, maybe kids would have had more exposure to playing against ex college/pro players that coaches would notice.

    No coach wants to bring in a junior that has not proven himself, Matt Kandath went to stanford...but before he went, he has proven he can hang with some pros around 500. I saw him beat Bester earlier this year.

    Its my opinion after playing in europe for the last 6 years
     
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  24. jaggy

    jaggy G.O.A.T.

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    Great question, Id imagine its all about bragging rights at the country club: "My son/daughters a scholarship athlete" kind of thing.
     
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  25. 10isDad

    10isDad Hall of Fame

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    I believe it was the ITA Regionals for the Carolinas region. Not sure if ALL the Carolina region schools attended/played, but the possibilities are below:
    Region, School, Conference, State
    Carolina APPALACHIAN STATE UNIV. Southern NC
    Carolina CAMPBELL UNIVERSITY Atlantic Sun NC
    Carolina CHARLESTON SOUTHERN UNIV. Big South SC
    Carolina CHARLESTON, COLLEGE OF Southern SC
    Carolina CITADEL, THE Southern SC
    Carolina CLEMSON UNIVERSITY Atlantic Coast SC
    Carolina COASTAL CAROLINA UNIV. Big South SC
    Carolina DAVIDSON COLLEGE Southern NC
    Carolina DUKE UNIVERSITY Atlantic Coast NC
    Carolina EAST CAROLINA UNIVERSITY Conference USA NC
    Carolina ELON UNIVERSITY Southern NC
    Carolina FURMAN UNIVERSITY Southern SC
    Carolina GARDNER-WEBB UNIVERSITY Big South NC
    Carolina HIGH POINT UNIVERSITY Big South NC
    Carolina NO. CAROLINA A&T STATE U Mid-Eastern Athl NC
    Carolina NO. CAROLINA CENTRAL U. Independent NC
    Carolina NO. CAROLINA STATE UNIV. Atlantic Coast NC
    Carolina NO. CAROLINA, U OF/ASHEVILLE Big South NC
    Carolina NO. CAROLINA, U OF/CHAPEL HILL Atlantic Coast NC
    Carolina NO. CAROLINA, U OF/CHARLOTTE Atlantic 10 NC
    Carolina NO. CAROLINA, U OF/GREENSBORO Southern NC
    Carolina NO. CAROLINA, U OF/WILMINGTON Colonial Athletic Assn NC
    Carolina PRESBYTERIAN COLLEGE Big South SC
    Carolina SO. CAROLINA UPSTATE, U OF Atlantic Sun SC
    Carolina SO. CAROLINA, UNIVERSITY OF Southeastern SC
    Carolina WAKE FOREST UNIVERSITY Atlantic Coast NC
     
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  26. Falloutjr

    Falloutjr Banned

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    But some of the parents of top ranked juniors aren't rich; they bank pretty much everything they have on getting them scholarships and professional careers.
     
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  27. tennismom42

    tennismom42 Semi-Pro

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    Actually, I must shamefully admit that I spent a ton of money I didn't have. I've reported before that I probably spent $2 for every anticipated $1 in scholarships. I'll be paying off credit cards forever. I am a bookkeeper and a legal aid volunteer, with 5 children. We have all that we need. However, we are not clubbers nor ever on welfare. To play tennis competively was clearly a fantasy world. It got my son into a college he never would have gotten into, nor dreamed of.

    Again, I (foolishly) racked up the bills and chased the ranking points, because of the JOURNEY. I had a great journey. I think my son did too, but it may take a while for him to figure things out.

    I've said it before, the current PPR ranking system is too similar to gambling. I realize I gambled and we "won" some. I do not recommend it to anyone else if you can't enjoy the journey.
     
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  28. tennismom42

    tennismom42 Semi-Pro

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    Sorry, I can't figure out how to do Multiple quote. I've been at some intense meetings lately & have not been able to compile the stats from the tournament yet. My bad, I admit! Hopefully, I'll get it done tonight. Sorry!

    We do have good ranking systems in the USA if you utilize both of them and understand how both are compiled. Plus take both with a grain of salt. There is the USTA and the TRN. Over the years, coaches have told me they rely more on TRN.

    US player most certainly CAN play college players and pros. That is if the college players and pros will come out to play. A quick search in USTA will find many $$$ tournaments and these kids can get into them. There are Showdowns and anyone may show up. On this continent, there are plenty of ITF junior and men's tournaments. Unfortunately, USA kids are distracted with their USTA rankings. They forget or don't realize that the ITF wins count HEAVILY into their USTA rankings. Lastly, college and pros need/want practice and most will play the juniors on a private court, if the kid will ask.

    If you think Tennismom42 (that's me) sees only part of the problem, you best read my posts. I LOVE to complain, provoke, cause controversy and make these kids atempt critical thinking. When they mis-spell separate, they're, or too, I will gladly jump down their throat for their lack of 4th grade spelling abilities. I also believe I offer many positive things.

    While living in Germany, I did not like their junior development methods because they broke our NCAA rules. They paid kids to belong to traveling tennis clubs. Hopefully, they've changed.

    I would agree that the USA juniors need to mix it up a little bit more: Showdowns, ITF juniors and mens, charity, prize tournaments, doubles, mixed doubles, volunteering to the poor and hosting competitors for out-of-state tournaments.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2009
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  29. tennismom42

    tennismom42 Semi-Pro

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    OK, finally I had some time to figure this out. I'll try to present the data from this past weekend's tournament in a similar format as ClarkC, but there are only 3 brackets. I only included data from main draws:

    Quarterfinals: 13 Americans, 11 foreign players

    Semifinals: 8 American, 4 foreign players

    Finals: 5 American, 1 foreign player
    all 3 brackets won by American players
     
    #29
  30. OTMPut

    OTMPut Hall of Fame

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    Can the word "foreign" be meaningful in a country like US?
     
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  31. 10isDad

    10isDad Hall of Fame

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    Just looked at Southwest region (Cal Poly, Pepperdine, Hawaii, Loyola Marymount, Arizona, UCLA, USC, UC Irvine, UC Riverside, San Diego, San Diego State, UC Santa Barbara):

    Initial draw: 41 domestic, 41 foreign
    Rnd of 16: 5 domestic, 11 foreign
    Qfinals: 1 domestic, 7 foreign
    Sfinals: 1 domestic, 3 foreign
    Finals: both foreign
     
    #31
  32. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Yes. It means you reside in a country other than the USA, and then came here to play collegiate tennis.
     
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  33. 10isDad

    10isDad Hall of Fame

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    What's your definition of the status of a player who has resided in the US for a couple years prior to college? For example, I know of a player on a local community college who moved from Mexico to the Phoenix area in his junior year of high school.

    I know of another player who came here from Serbia in his last year of middle school. I believe this player now holds dual citizenship, though am not certain. This person's family moved here for reasons other than the player's college tennis pursuit.

    Out of curiousity do you consider these players foreign or domestic?

    What about those players that reside in full-time US tennis academies - and have for years?
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2009
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  34. tennismom42

    tennismom42 Semi-Pro

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    Sounds like Sharapova syndrome
     
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  35. MasturB

    MasturB Hall of Fame

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    I live in Savannah, Ga.

    Which means I'm lucky enough to be able to get to see Armstrong Atlantic University's tennis team practice and play so often. They won the Men's and Women's National Championships in Division II, and have a nice tennis tradition of winning here.

    I always play tennis on their courts since the lights go out at 11ish, so I see them out there often. I even had the opportunity to hit around with a few, and played with their possible German recruit for next year a week ago.
     
    #35
  36. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Domestic recruit.
     
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  37. cmb

    cmb Semi-Pro

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    Its good to provoke controversy/critical thinking. Thats exactly my point though. You say we have plenty of money tournaments here, its impossible to play 1 each weekend, and they are spread out all over the states so even the small amount of prize money is offered is not enough to cover expenses from a flight/food/hotel. In france you can play in as many as 3 tournaments per week and never drive more then 1 hour from your house in some regions.

    again you see only part of the equation.

    No Germany has not changed, and neither should they. All of the western european clubs offer money to their players, junior or professional. Its the way its done there, and I doubt if your son would have taken a few hundred Euros per match he would have been ineligible for school, Its mostly paid in cash which is pretty much impossible for the NCAA to track. Only in the top 2 leagues of Germany can the NCAA see, and I doubt any kids playing at this level would be considering college. They are already pros at this point.

    Again you see only a small part of the problem.

    If the USTA had 1 ranking for everybody that plays tennis in the country, like france, it would not matter what tournaments you play, everything would be the same, you just try to beat better players, not travel all over trying to win points. The reason college/pros dont show up to play is because there is no money to win...in france there is money to win, so good players show up to play.

    Again only part of the problem.

    I have played in europe since 2004, I know what im talking about on this one
     
    #37
  38. jserve

    jserve Rookie

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    I don't really follow college tennis too closely anymore, but I know within the last decade the was an NCAA championship where the two teams to make it to the finals were both all american players.
     
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  39. T10s747

    T10s747 Rookie

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    Like TMom says, there is no way to get a good national ranking without spending a ton of money. That's just the way it is and that's why it's still a money sport. Don't expect any athletic kids from inner cities to ever make it in this sport. The Williams sistas didn't spend all that money to get a national ranking. They bypassed the system. The old man (sly as a fox) hyped them up to get full sponsorship from Rick Macci. He would hire ex-college black guys to hit with them at like $5/ hr and giving them the dream that they would partake in future earnings. Of course, he then discarded these pros along the way to success. I know some of them.
     
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  40. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Click the multiple quote button on each posting you want to multiple quote, EXCEPT the last one. Then click the regular quote button on the last one.
     
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