Foreigners in College Tennis

Discussion in 'College Tennis Talk' started by tennis5, May 3, 2012.

  1. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Apparently limits are not legally justified if they are imposed by a governing body such as the NCAA. If you haven't seen that link that has been posted up a zillion times, I'll try to find it again.

    I think there may be more wiggle room for an individual school to make such a decision. Such as Winthrop! Any South Carolinians here........Rufus?.........log out of Talk Tennis and call your state congressman!!
     
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  2. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    The purpose of athletic scholarships is to provide and Educational opportunity for student, who through demonstrated excellence in their chosen sport, have shown commitment and character deserving of the opportunity to pursue a college degree.
     
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  3. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    OK, then giving the scholarship to foreign players is consistent with that goal. Why the angst?
     
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  4. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    The thread title is engaging. Would you mind summarising your thesis in a single sentence, like "foreigners are bad/good for US college tennis". Also, please include the operational definition of a "foreigner" for the purposes of this discussion.
     
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  5. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Yes, "Direct institutional support" translates to: The athletic department ran a deficit, and here is how much the university kicked in to balance the athletic department budget.
     
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  6. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Because I look at this from a title IX perspective. Title IX was meant to ensure that there were equal educational opportunities for girls and boys. I think that by bring in foreign women tennis players, in particular, they are circumventing the purpose of Title IX.

    I know many don't agree with Title IX and any way to get around it is fair game. I happen to agree with it.

    Disclosure : I have one girl and one boy.
     
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  7. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Good post.

    The bolded item unfortunately happens alot if you believe that scholarships should primarily go to US kids.

    Please keep posting.
     
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  8. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    We don't often agree on subjects here, (& i don't agree with all points in this post)... but this is a very nice post Clark.
     
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  9. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    The only people who even use the term BCS are two or three folks who post in favor of giving 50-100% of US scholarships to non americans.

    This thread absolutely should discuss scholarships at all schools. Tennis by definition isn't a BCS sport in college (it's a money loser).

    .
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2012
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  10. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    .......................
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
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  11. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Doesn't Stanford still only recruit home-grown talent? If not, when did they change?
     
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  12. tennismom42

    tennismom42 Semi-Pro

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    I dropped in to hopefully read up on this upcoming weekend's NCAA matches. However, I see the scholarships to USA vs. Internationals lingers.

    Indeed the "athletic scholarship" lure has enabled my own (USA) son to get a University education. Never would that have happened without tennis. He has competed on the team since a freshman and he'll get to compete this weekend. The tennis scholarship has facilitated many, many dreams. His team is about 50/50 of USA vs. Int'l. Note that the USA men are doing just fine in college competition. When I've watched his team compete (in and out of conference), I would say 80% of the other teams are 80% foreigners. I have seen the whole gammit including some coaches who have zero history of recruiting Americans. If that isn't prejudice and stupidity, I don't know what is. I have seen some teams heavily stacked with favoritism toward a particular foreign country.

    While doing the recruiting process years ago my son showed up and personally interviewed with coaches around the country. Others (his competition) were viewed by video/youtube and tele conferences across one ocean or another. I just cannot figure out how coaches can compare or evaluate foreign players without personally seeing the recruit compete or at least hit. How can a team connection or comraderie be determined over youtube?

    Possibly solution to the scholarship problem? The universities could charge 3 rates instead of the current 2 rates. Have in-state, out-of-state and out-of-country tuition rates. Keep in mind that getting on the team, does not guarantee competition time. USA tennis juniors are SALIVATING to compete.

    How is this problem any different than IBM outsourcing corporate American jobs to India and the Philapines? I think both just get determined by the political opinions of "the few."
     
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  13. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Hopefully those who use the term alot will chime in.

    I suspect it is used to describe the top half of the top 5-6 conferences. (The 20-30 schools who typically compete & are in the mix for the football national championship & are found in most top 20 polls).
     
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  14. gully

    gully Semi-Pro

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    <Really hoping this thread can stay civil and informative.>

    I just went through a recruiting year with my graduating 4-star daughter. It was educational. Her level is in the non-ranked BCS to mid-major area. Many schools in this range have teams constituted entirely of internationals and do not appear to recruit Americans at all, whether or not the team is any good. Some coaches recruit Americans first, then fill with international (and some vice-versa). A few coaches I spoke to told me they wanted to recruit only Americans, and of them, a few appeared to follow that philosophy.

    I have taught and mentored dozens of international college and graduate students in my career and understand that they bring a great deal to an institution. Their presence is welcome and often even a necessary part of the overall college experience.

    But I think there is a problem when a college tennis team, especially a state-funded scholarship team, never makes any effort to recruit any American player and always fields a 100% international team. Dozens of teams good and bad fit this description.

    And no, I don't have a solution.
     
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  15. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    The BCS is highly relevant in non revenue sports since it is the largest source of funding to the schools that participate in the football system. The B1G, ACC, Big East, SEC, Pac12, and Big 12 have considerably larger athletic budgets than non BCS schools, Notre Dame aside. Football is far more impactful in that it distributes revenue directly to these conferences as opposed to the NCAA basketball championships, where the NCAA covers itself first and then distributes revenue.

    When I refer to BCS on these boards, I am referring to those 6 conferences.
     
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  16. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Our experiences share some similarities.

    "Reach" schools for us included some BCS and highly-ranked non-BCS private schools. I think all of them had multiple foreigners. We got some lip-service about walking on, but no offers. Would we have received offers if these teams had no foreigners? I dunno. Have to admit, on paper at least, the kids on their rosters and the kids they offered were better than our player

    Ended up getting offers from mid-major private and out-of-state State schools.........most with multiple foreigners. Accepted one of these offers, and the tennis player and family are delighted with the result. The fact that there would be teammates with non-US passports was a selling point in the final decision.

    If any schools, based on their needs, are offering to inferior foreigners over superior available Americans who want to attend these schools, then I think that would be a disservice to these schools and would probably constitute discrimination. If anyone knows about examples of this, I encourage you to name these schools right here in this thread!

    If schools are offering to superior players over inferior players, then the passport these respective players are holding is not an issue for me.

    Similarly, I can not get myself to be upset if some of my tax dollars/cents (at most it would be about 75 or 80 cents per year) are being used to fund tennis scholarships for out-of-state or foreign students at State schools in my state of residence.

    I am ready to get my dander up and voice objections about all of this, but so far I have seen nothing on the board that would inspire such emotions or action.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2012
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  17. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Right.

    The relevant definitions come from TRN. The terms "BCS" and "high-major" are interchangeable in TRN-speak. The only wrinkle is that for tennis, TRN includes the Ivies with the BCS schools as part of high-major. Below that level is "mid-major". Here is one link to TRN about this, there are others I am sure:

    http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/teams/topclasses.asp?id=1204

    Some excerpts from the link:

    We continue our rankings today with a look at the top college recruiting classes from the "mid-major" programs - programs outside of the so-called "high-major" conferences that are slotted into BCS football bowl games.

    Many mid-major schools compete at a very high level. In Division I post-season play, mid-major teams posted nine match wins in the 2011 NCAA team tournament, sending two teams through to Stanford. Mid-major schools have won national titles in the singles, doubles, and team events...

    The mid-major rankings include all colleges in all divisions except for those in the "high-major conferences". The high-major conferences for tennis include schools affiliated with Bowl Championship Series conferences - the ACC, Big East, Big 10, Big 12, Pac 12, and SEC - as well as the Ivy League.


    Posters who may have any issues with this TRN terminology or the use of the acronym BCS, please post up your concerns. Makes perfect sense to me.
     
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  18. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    Thanks Misterbill, great clarification. Appreciate you digging up that post from TR. Got it!
     
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  19. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    My pleasure!

    Now that I read it again, I think the definition of "mid-major" may be a little too broad, but that is a minor quibble and not relevant to the question about BCS.
     
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  20. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

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    Keep America pure. Expel all foreigners. Build Fortress America to keep freedom and liberty alive.
     
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  21. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Of course they are circumventing the purpose of Title IX. Quota systems are always circumvented whenever possible, because they are the kind of constraint that makes no sense. For example, many elite colleges admit wealthy and upper middle class students from places such as Nigeria, then claim success for their "affirmative action" program. Back when the program started, there was probably a lot of rhetoric about the history of black Americans, families where no one had ever been to college, poverty, etc. Were American affirmative action programs set up to benefit the upper class in Nigeria? Of course not.
     
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  22. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    NCAA : I understand the issues with the NCAA ability to regulate this, but it can be addressed at the conference level and the AD Level.

    BCS : I understood what you meant so didn't bother mentioning it. However, if you go back to the post that started this, I think some of the main offenders are in the lower tiers of the BCS conference, and I will single out UW in particular. She's under pressure to compete with Stanford, UCLA, USC, who don't have a problem attracting top USA players, so she makes a token effort to get some top 20 player and when that fails, she goes to the foreigners. How's that working out for her? Wheres Udub seeded ? She'd do better if she got the best Americans she could get, with potential, and did her job, which is coaching, not managing. She doesn't what to do the hardwork of developing a kid with potential but couldn't afford to go to Weil academy or similar, and who may take a year or two to make an impact on the team. Easier to take the rich foreign kid who can jump into 2nd singles and help right away. Kind of reminds me of the second tier BCS Football teams who are so concerned about winning they use all their scholarships on JUCO transfers with one year of eligibility rather than bring in Freshman. Rarely works out for them either.

    That's actually what got me started posting on this, I found her quaotes and the attitude it revealed to be appealing.

    Misterbill - you wrote you supported international students " Because I think it strengthens college tennis, because I think that our kids need to learn to compete" - I agree which is why I have no problem with some scholarships, but how exactly does it help US tennis when Winthrop plays Udub ? How are American tennis players getting stronger and meeting new friends from abroad when there is only one on each team ? I'm sure if I had the time I could have found better examples where there were none on each team.

    Misterbill - you also wrote "they offered were better than our player". Yeah, but were any of these "Freshman" 20 year olds with European tour experience ? Yeah, of course there better. Yes, I know this is being addressed with a new NCAA regulation, but we will see how that goes. I'm sure there are already people looking for the loopholes.

    Dennis10s - Deep, insightful post. Keep up the good work man.
     
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  23. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Whoops, spell check error. I meant "appalling"
     
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  24. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Doesn't make it ok.
     
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  25. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    You can easily find teams without any Americans in Mid-American Conference. A lot of Mid-Americans from Norway, Israel, Columbia, etc. And from Georgia that is not a US state. I wonder if irony of this situation escapes some posters who believe that the current state of US college tennis is fine and nothing should be changed.
    I am for a reasonable quota on non-permanent US residents on the team rosters that should include both private and public colleges participating in NCAA competitions. And this should come from NCAA.
     
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  26. Satsuma Illini

    Satsuma Illini Semi-Pro

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    If you wait for the NCAA to do anything worthwhile or productive, you'll be wasting your time. They are not the answer.
     
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  27. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    I refer to BCS schools because those are usually comprised of the largest and most well know state universities that receive the largest share of state subsidies (which have decreased dramatically over the last decade).

    Those schools usually generate positive revenue from football and basketball operations and people who claim that their tax dollars are funding "foreigners" in those schools are just flat our wrong.

    In smaller Div 1, 2 or 3 schools, personally, I don't see why they should fund ANY scholarships at all as they are not revenue neutral. They can foster athletics by providing the athletic infrastructure, which is costly enough by itself. I don't see what they get out of giving out scholarships. They are academic institution first and foremost. Any money that can be spared should be going to academics.

    If you insist on athletic scholarships for educational reasons, you should give general guidance on all of those scholarships and leave it up to the school administrators to dole them out as they see fit.

    Looking at from the school athletic administrator's point of view, even with all of the tennis scholarships going to foreigners, you still have 95% of the overall scholarships going to kids from this country. Complaining about foreigners taking those 5% of the scholarships when they are emminently qualified seems like nothing but sour grapes. Especially when those foreign kids add greatly to diversity and provide exposure to different cultures for other students on campus. If anyone should be complaining, it should be kids with high academic achievements who are not getting scholarships because that money is going to athletic scholarships. Tennis kids not getting theirs due to foreigners would be pretty far down the line based on merit.

    I don't see why NCAA needs to get involved when there is no problem when viewed as whole.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2012
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  28. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    What maybe true for the top dogs, like Auburn and Alabama, is not true of the perennial bottom dwellers in these conferences(names not mentioned becuase I don't want to insult any alumni here, but you know who they are). We have already shown that one of the main sources of revenue for these programs is student fees and contributions from the general funds. Student fees come from students, whose money comes from federal grants and federal backed student loans. Why do you always try to limit the discussion, or assume the discussion is limited to, your so-called BCS schools, or that money has to be direct and not indirect ? You never address that you just assert we are "flat out wrong". The simple fact is the main problem is with the mid-majors, division II, and the BCS bottom dwellers like Udub, and that's were the preponderance of the scholarships are.

     
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  29. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Because you are not looking at it from the women's side of the equation. Women's teams have higher percentage of foreign players, and these are scholarships that were created to address the imbalance caused by football and basketball scholarships.
     
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  30. rufus_smith

    rufus_smith Professional

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    It would a good idea to give college tennis scholarships to Americans only. First, the American middle class family is hurting badly right now and needs all the financial help it can get. Secondly, It would help promote the growth of tennis in the US. The more spots available the more kids will turn to tennis. Thirdly, Americans going to college in the US tend to stay and contribute to the US. Foreign players tend to disappear to their home countries never to be seen again. There are plenty of ways of gaining cultural diversity on campus besides paying foreigners to come to the US to play tennis.
     
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  31. usta2050

    usta2050 Rookie

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    Do you see international students play football?
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2012
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  32. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    I am just trying to figure out exactly what the objections are.

    If you are REALLY upset about your tax dollars going to foreigners, I am just trying to point out that it does not apply to the most visible tennis programs from the biggest public universities. So, you should have no qualms against those programs. If you still have problems with those programs, then the outrage is not about the tax dollars at all (this is where the original disingenuous remark applies).
     
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  33. cll30

    cll30 Rookie

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    How many other counties play American-style football?
     
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  34. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    No, I am looking at it from EVERY angle.

    Tennis scholarships, even counting women's programs, are just tiny fraction of the overall number of scholarships that a typical university hands out.

    If you want changes in how scholarships are handed out, it is not going to be really up to the coaches, it is going to be up to the athletic directors. From their point of view, they have tens of programs with hundreds of scholarships that they manage. The fact that people are complaining about 5% of the overall scholarships going to foreign students is just not going to generate any stress for a typical athletic director (or perhaps even more importantly, major donors).

    You need to step away from tennis focused microscope and look at the entire athletic program and better yet, the entire university. From that point of view, handing out athletic scholarships to 10 to 15 foreign students out of hundreds in total is just not a significant problem.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2012
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  35. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Ok, let me be clear then.
    1. My objection is to the total percentage of scholarships being awarded to foreign tennis players, with a particular concern on the women's team, although I am concerned about the men's game.
    2. I do not have a problem with a reasonable proportion of scholarships being awarded to foreign students. I think that is healthy for the game and the students for all the reasons mentioned - increased competition, exposure to diversity - but the situation is clearly out of hand, with almost 50% of scholarships awarded to foreigners in division I, and this is based 2007 data. It’s probably higher.

    3. I am particularly bothered by coaches at state institutions who seem to show a callous disregard for the part of their job descriptions that should mention, if it does not, attracting local recruits first based on talent and potential, and doing their job, which is coaching(i.e, developing) the players. But I don’t reserve my contempt just for them. I am equally frustrated with coaches at private universities that don’t even bother to try to recruit Americans. How can you be the head coach of the Udub tennis team and not be bothered to try to recruit players from Washington unless they are in teh top 20?? Her attitude is just disturbing.

    4. Please review MY posts again. I never once said my objection is my tax dollars going to foreign scholarships. You keep on trying to shoot this argument down but I never made it. In fact, as long as they live within reasonable percentage, I wouldn’t have a problem with this. You argued that BCS programs are self-sufficient and federal tax money does not go directly to scholarships. I said I think that’s a fantasy and it gets there indirectly. You ignored that. Oh well, we can continue to disagree on this because it doesn’t matter(to me), becuase my objection is that 50% of scholarships are going to foreign player’s regardless of the source of the money. On the women’s side in particular I think this shows contempt for Title IX. With public institutions, we can exercise right as citizens, though elections, and participation in the oversight process, to decide how they operate, and that includes how they are allowed to offer scholarships, and spend their money even if it’s not direct tax payer money. We have the power to change their policies. Similarity, even private institutions are subject to regulation, and compliance with federal and state laws, as they all take federal money.

    5. That said, I think this issue is best attacked at the AD and conference level. While the NCAA claims that it wouldn’t be legal for them to regulate this is, the fact is there are legal arguments on both sides. The real answer it’s not something they are concerned enough about that they would bother to try. It would take breaking a lot of eggs, and would really be a no win situation for them to try. At a conference levels, if you can get a majority of AD’s to agree you can make a change.
     
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  36. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    American football is played in almost every continent on the planet including North and South America, Asia, Europe and the Pacific Rim nations. The International Federation of American Football is the official international governing body of American Football and oversees 45 member organizations. Beginning in 1999, the international Federation of American Football has also sponsored a world cup of American football with Japan taking the honors in both 1999 and 2003.

    I got that from some website.
     
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  37. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I did? Where?

    Not 100% sure, but I don't think so. We didn't dwell on it. Negative energy creates losers. Stayed positive and moved on. And things worked out fine.
     
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  38. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    My apologies. That was ClarkC.
     
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  39. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Unfortunately, this has been the case in our little remote neck of the woods, and this is not the only place it has happened.

    More importantly, I think its the job of the college coaches to not just focus on the top 20 in the rankings, but look down the list, and find those kids who maybe didn't have the ability to live full time in Boca or Ojai, or the money to travel to all the national tournaments. Noones winning majors at 18 years old anymore, there's still time for these kids to get better. Find the kids who can benefit from coaching and coach them.
     
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  40. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Aloha, I think your heart is in the right place, and I can understand where you are coming from.

    But......here's the sledge hammer after the compliment--no, I hope you don't think so.

    In junior tennis, the players and their families pay the coach. (yes, hound109, I know there are some exceptions)

    In college tennis, the coach pays the players and their families.

    And if the coach does a bad job choosing who to pay, the coach loses his/her own job.

    Alumni donors and ADs.....I think....are in a better position to tell college tennis coaches what their jobs are.........than the employees or families of employees.

    (OK, let me get my flak helmet on to defray shrapnel from others.......and possible friendly fire from you!!!)
     
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  41. usta2050

    usta2050 Rookie

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    well said...if I were a coach, I would pick winners. Look at all the top basketball recruits, they get multiple offers, no?
     
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  42. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    I actually agree with this...I'm a big believer in, what gets measured, gets done...that's why I said change needs to come from the AD level and conference level

    Coaches contracts are much more complicated that win at costs and get paid, lose and get fired...they have to be successful within certain parameters...such as graduation rates, etc. No reason % of US players cant be among them.

    If local USTA organizations, high school coaches, alumni, particularity tennis alumni, take the time to communicate the issue to the AD, these things can change..

    Somewhat related, our local paper just ran a great story on two women tennis team players who graduated from the UH back in the Mid 80's. It talked about how they both got to go to college when they might not have been able to afford to otherwise, and the great tennis careers they have had since(as coaches and management, not as players). It was a heart warming story, but the writer missed the epilogue - if either of these women were graduating from high school today, they would have no chance of getting a scholarship to the university..but, hey, thanks to our polish players, we made the NCAA's, and that's what counts, right ?

    Heres a link to the article, unfortunately, it is behind a pay wall, it will cost you .99 to read it : http://www.staradvertiser.com/sportspremium/20120502_the_roses_at_uh.html?id=149798105
     
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  43. usta2050

    usta2050 Rookie

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    No offense, but Hawaiian residents (not Hawaiians, there are no Hawaiians in Hawaii. Most a melting pot of filipinos, polys, jps, and haoles) are very anti-non-hawaiian. the colleges in hawaii, esp. byu-hawaii have a huge team of foreign players for many years.

    Are you a polynesian? by any chance?
     
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  44. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    No offense taken, I'm a haloe, but my wife is Filipina. I disagree though, there are plenty of Hawaiians here,hundreds of thousands actually, and I have 11 Hawaiian nieces and nephews, for instance, so I'm not sure where that comment came from. I can't decipher anti-non-Hawaiian right now,it's late, even here. That seems like some kind of double negative. No, tennis is not the biggest sport here, but we produce more than our fair share of oline men, MLB players and volleyball players. We've produced some decent tennis players too(per capita) and there some good players in the pipeline, including some who are Hawaiian.

    Yeah, BYUH. Foreign players. I know.
     
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  45. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    I agree.

    I'd like my alma mater's AD to keep it at one non-american per team. I'd like my state (for public colleges) & / or the NCAA (for all colleges) to enact rules or legislation to be no more than two per team. (& they all should be 18 years 11 months or younger when entering).

    The N in NCAA doesn't stand for Non-american freshman who are 20 years old.
     
    #95
  46. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    San Antonio/Austin
    Dennis Lajola doing pretty well in the pro tour.
     
    #96
  47. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    As I stated previously, get out your checkbook and meet with your schools AD. If you agree to fund their scholarships, I'm certain you'll be able to make the rules on who can get the scholarships. If you leave it to the school to decide, they'll keep taking advantage of the loopholes to get better players and win more.
     
    #97
  48. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    As Craig Tiley noted in the first post, as much as the coaches in college and in general want to deny it, but quality environment for true self development in tennis in US is rare. The culture here is win, win, recruit, compete, and so on. Too political and not very supportive and disciplined for real player and skill development. And the kids are who are already good are 'talented' and who are not 'have no hope'. Complete lack of vision and leadership by coaching staff in general in US. There is no way to slow or stop competition without limits in this globalized world. The coaching staff hasn't kept up with the speed of change. Problem is those coaches think they are world class simply because they are in some kind of position in US. It's reflection of culture here and I don't see it changing easily and quickly.
     
    #98
  49. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    I don't know why some of you believe it is NCAA's job to make sure that US tennis players succeed. That is the job for USTA, not NCAA. I highly doubt that any collegiate athletic directors feel that way at all. Their job is to make sure that athletics bring desired benefits for the school, be it accolades, donations, etc..

    Bringing in foreign players for tennis has many benefits for the schools. They bring desired diversity of culture to the campus and above all, make it easier to compete with other competitive programs.

    Why anyone believes that that is something any athletic director wants to change is beyond me.

    The current system exists because it is beneficial to all those involved. If not, the system will change (US tennis players getting better and US players dominated teams start winning). If developing US players led to more wins in the end, everyone would be doing it. Until then, all this bellyaching is not going to change anything and it is only going to be perceived as whinning by narcissistic players and parents.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2012
    #99
  50. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2009
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    To understand your point of view better, could you give us a little background about you? Thanks
     

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