Foreigners in College Tennis

Discussion in 'College Tennis Talk' started by tennis5, May 3, 2012.

  1. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    I have absolutely no dog in the fight. I only played IM tennis in college (Michigan) and I am under no delusion that my 10 year old daughter is going to get a tennnis scholarship for college.
     
  2. usta2050

    usta2050 Rookie

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    It's hard for players to travel to/from HI to compete. Most of the tennis players from hawaii's universities don't end up anywhere. i don't want to say their game suck after college, but they mostly end up doing really stupid jobs after school.
     
  3. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    Once again, Dennis Lajola. Hawaiian played at Hawaii-Manoa. Ranked 589 in the world and 34th best American in the world right now. That's pretty good. he is also getting better, playing his best tennis after college.

    I know you said usually, but how many players from schools of Hawaii's claibur(WAC schools and such) end of having great after college tennis careers?
     
  4. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Huh ???? I think most of the players get a good education and go on to fine careers, some lawyers I am aware of, etc. Nowadays though many just go back to their home countries and I'm pretty sure they do OK with a solid if not Ivy league education under their belts. Do they go professional ? No, not too often, but there's been some that tried. But that's the case with 96% of colleges players. Even in "BCS" schools.
     
  5. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Yeah, he's doing ok. Training with Michael Chang in SoCal. I watched him play(and lose to) Jack Sock in our local challenger back in January. It was a good match.
     
  6. cmb

    cmb Semi-Pro

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    I see alot of good points and arguments here. But all of the people are missing one point. The coaches at 90% of the schools are just stupid.
    For Example, I have a good friend(american) who played at a mid major D1 in Illinois. In his second year he got sick and was done for that year and the next. He had 2 years remaining of tennis, he contacted the coach at a mid major school in Florida. But the coach told him he could only give him 40% scholarship because he was bringing 2 foreign players in. One of the players was a french kid, and since I live in France now I he asked me how good this kid was. Here in france we have a very comprehensive ranking system, it is 95% impossible to have your ranking higher then your actually level at that moment (barring injury, sickness, or other random problem). So I look the kids name up, his ranking was 4/6 (in france that is considered really weak, a social tennis ranking).

    So this fault is the coach was stupid!! just no idea what he is doing...unfit for coaching a college team.

    He was giving a 80% scholarship to a foreigner who has a agent from a recruiting service hyping him up. My friend is a much better player.

    This is just one example of a coach who has no idea what he is doing.

    But in my opinion this is 90% of those mid major schools who have 90% foreign players. Not only are the coaches lazy, they also have no idea how to evaluate talent, are if you can beleive it...have no idea how the ranking system works in France. If you are a college coach...you better learn how the french ranking system works. Its easy to understand, and its the best system as far as knowing what kind of player you are going to get.
     
  7. Satsuma Illini

    Satsuma Illini Semi-Pro

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    What are you basing your 90% number on? One example doesn't make 90%...
     
  8. cmb

    cmb Semi-Pro

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    Played college tennis D1, top 10 ranked school. one parent coached at another top 20 d1 school, and 3 other D1 schools throughout the 90s and 2000s. I currently play futures and coach in a tennis academy in France.

    Ive been around and around the block in the states....I know what im talking about. US college coaches are more or less useless. Even my coaches at a top 10 D1 ranked school were completely useless compared to the coaching I had growing up from parents, and coaches in Germany and France before I played college.
     
  9. andfor

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    You should expect your daughter, if she trains and plays tennis until she graduate H.S. will get a college tennis scholarship. It would be delusional to think at 10 years old a child would get a college scholarship to Michigan. However it would not be unrealistic to think she could get a Mid-Major D1 scholarship if she trains and plays very hard, (i.e. W. Mich U or Detroit Mercy e.g.) or to a DII, NAIA or NJCAA school. There are so many tennis scholarships out there for those willing to look beyond the typical BCS large DI type schools. Even with international students in college tennis there's still very, very much room American tennis kids.
     
  10. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    I am hoping that tennis will help her get into a college of her choice, but I have no expectations that she is going to get a scholarship for it. Nor do I want one, as she has very high academic achievements so far and she has a realistic chance of getting into an Ivy League school or local top public universities with full scholarship (academic, not athletic).

    Back on topic. It is true for most college coaching (for any sport) that they just follow the herd. All of these college coaches recruit foreign players because that has been a successful strategy for many schools at the top.

    If recruiting and "coaching up" American kids started paying off, everyone else will start copying that as well.

    If you want less scholarships going to foreign players, all you have to do is to produce better American players. It is really not complicated.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
  11. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Why do American college kids have to compete against the top kids from the world?
    Our collegiate athletic teams compete within the U.S., not the world.

    Your on the right path, academic scholarship far less of a investment than a tennis scholarship.
     
  12. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Actually the coaches are smart, they take money from the foreign recruiters.
     
  13. TennisFan2Day

    TennisFan2Day Rookie

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    The players pay the recruiters. College coaches are not allowed to accept money from recruiters.
     
  14. gameboy

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    That is not true. There are plenty of foreign kids who get basketball scholarships. The numbers are small because US kids are better in general, but there are a lot of basketball teams with one or two foreign players on the roster.

    The same holds true for football as well, it is just that superior foreign kids in football is very rare.

    The kids are competing with the world already.
     
  15. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    True, but not reality. What is the value of a 200k scholarship to a family in say, Germany?
     
  16. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Right. Hockey....track.....soccer
     
  17. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Imagine the outcry that would be heard in this country if college football teams were all foreign, with the token American on it.
     
  18. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Yes, but I'm talking about tennis teams that are 80-100% foreigners.

    I'm for foreigners, just in moderation.
     
  19. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    You are alleging on a public forum violations of NCAA rules.........and possibly criminal activity. If you have information about possible criminal activity and don't bring it to the attention of the authorities, that is a crime in many jurisdictions.

    It is hoped you have informed the NCAA and law enforcement about the information you have so something can be done about it...............if true.
     
  20. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    In which country do you live in?

    Here in America, we have what's called, freedom of speech!
     
  21. andfor

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    I've called folks out on this and other wild allegations before. Silence is the expectation, of course.

    This topic has been ripe with misinformation since the beginning. When posting the reality about how American kids are getting college scholarships the opponents don't acknowledge the facts. http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/USTA_Intl_SA_FAQ_FINAL_CLEAN.pdf

    Unfortunately many of those who are adamantly opposed to internationals playing college sports choose only to see it their way. I'm for Americans improving and playing up to the level of play as opposed to bringing the level of play down to meet the needs of those players who are want to play somewhere they are simply not qualified.
     
  22. floridatennisdude

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    Uh oh. Tennishacker and Misterbill are at it and it's only page 7. What's the over-under on this thread making it? Page 10?
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
  23. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    What does it matter what country I live in? Are you saying my views are less valid if I don't live in the US? Are you?

    You rate people's views based on their nationality?

    If I am not mistaken, in the US, freedom of speech is limited. Try yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. Or "hijack" on an airplane. What about slander? Libel?

    You have impugned the integrity of every college tennis coach in the US who has one or more foreigners on the team. That includes all the coaches in the Pac-12, SEC (I think), Big 12, WCC and even that coach from Winthrop we read about on the forum recently.

    Even if what you are doing is legal, I think it contravenes some international standards of common decency.

    The least you can do is tell us how you know about these...alleged...violations/crimes. Either:

    A. You are a US college coach who has been offered/accpeted the kind of payment you allege.

    B. You are a player or parent of a player whose foreign coach has offered/made the kind of payment you allege

    C. You are a player or parent of a player who has a teammate who has talked about the kind of payment you allege

    D. A US coach, foreign coach, or player has admitted such alleged violations/crimes to you

    E. None of the above
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
  24. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    The Udub coach was very clear about this : She has to have top 20 players or she's bringing in the hired guns. Doesn't matter how good the other players are outside the top 20, she has to compete with Stanford, UCLA, USC so it has to be top 20. What do you suggest we do, increase the number of top 20 players ? Maybe have 50 top 20 players ?

    I think the American kids are improving, but the games rigged against them, They can't all be top 20.
     
  25. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    I give up. $200k ?
     
  26. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    For the sake of the thread, I'll ignore Misterbill.
     
  27. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    That's my point, American college tennis is not an international sport, that's why we have the Pan Am games, Olympics and professional tennis.

    I would say 99% of college tennis kids have no aspiration to play professionally after college, college tennis was a means to get into a better school than they could of academically, or they could not afford college but was able to attended with a scholarship.

    Once again, I'm for foreigners in college tennis, just in moderation.
     
  28. gameboy

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    But Athletic Directors don't look at things in isolation. You may be talking about tennis teams only, but the people who make the decisions don't care about possible imbalance in a single low-visibility sport. They are not going to care that their tennis team is 100% foreigners if the overall numbers of them is small for the entire school. There is already moderation from their point of view.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
  29. gameboy

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    That does not make sense.

    If the top 50 American players are better than the "hired guns" that she can bring in, she would recruit those players. Like you said, she is simply trying to compete against other top programs.

    The reason why she is limiting it to top 20 players is because those are the only players better than the "hired gun" players she can bring in from overseas.
     
  30. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    if you are referring to the part where I said we need 50 kids in the top 20, I know it does not make sense, I was being facetious.

    Anyway, since she has gone the route of only taking US players in the top 20 and not going foreign, how's that worked out for her ? Guess they beat USC, Stanford and CAL this year. Not. Other notable non-victories : Arizona, Arizona State, Wasington State, St. Marys, Texas A&M. Yeah, that go foreign strategy really paying off for her...those kids must have been waaaay better.
     
  31. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    I meant going foreign
     
  32. gameboy

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    Sports is just about the most pure form of meritocracy we have in our society.

    If UW coach does not win with her methods, she will be fired and replaced with somebody else.

    If having more American kids on the squad means more wins, coaches WILL recruit more American kids.
     
  33. floridatennisdude

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    Exactly. They don't recruit players because they like their personalities. They are using their judgement on who will most likely win. If they don't do that, ultimately the coach is the one that is gone. Then the next coach will have to figure it out.

    Interesting that the Winthrop program was brought up. The women have won how many conference titles? 18? And why should he change his recruiting methods? Because SC is such a hotbed of talent dying to go there?
     
  34. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Agreed.

    (Personality may come into play sometimes, but I don't think they are recruiting players because they like their passports)
     
  35. rufus_smith

    rufus_smith Professional

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    Does any country in Europe or anywhere else have even one university program where US players can get a free ride for playing tennis?

    Nope, never have, never will.
     
  36. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Except that generally, half the programs are winners and half the programs are losers. The coaches of the loser programs will look for any edge within the rulesto get back in with the winners. So if it is her, it will be someone else, until the rules are changed.
     
  37. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Can you or anyone name an American tennis playing junior that was denied all tennis scholarship opportunities after exhausting all avenues available to play (NCAA DI & DII, NAIA and NJCAA), due to internationals playing U.S. College tennis?

    http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/USTA_Intl_SA_FAQ_FINAL_CLEAN.pdf

    Never can, never will.
     
  38. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    First, I struggle with the concept that Foreign competition helps Americans play better tennis.

    If a team is 100% comprised of foreigners, how does that help Americans?

    Or if the team has 2 Americans and the rest are foreigners, how does that help the other Americans who didn't make the team?


    I also wrestle with this question, is college tennis for the student-athlete or is for a junior to work on their pro aspirations.

    The USTA until recently changed their stance when Pat admitted to making a mistake, not a big mistake mind you, but a "little mistake".

    "We in the USTA maybe made a little mistake in pushing some of our junior prospects to go straight to the pros in the past," McEnroe says.

    So, while I do believe the USTA could exert some pressure, for example, lobby the NCAA for some type of cap ( 2 foreigners per team),

    I don't think they consider that in their best interest in terms of getting an American to the finals of the US Open.

    The USTA wants the foreign competition here to help the few kids, say ten kids, that will break into the top 100.

    So, hundreds of kids in each grade will lose spots to foreigners each year, so that a few kids can realize their pro aspiration.

    When did college tennis become the training ground for becoming a pro?

    And the fact that the word college is in front of the word tennis, isn't the point of going to college to get an education?

    Now, some of you on this board are under the impression that all the US kids have to do is get better......

    "Get better, play better....."

    But, we don't have the support of the USTA, and quite frankly, after the new junior changes that were put through for 2014

    where the next crop of young kids will play only 2 Super Nats for the entire year,

    I would say the USTA is severely handicapping the rest of the junior population here in this country...

    ( excluding the USTA kids who will be able to play in the other 2 Super Nats - 16 to 32 draw).

    Also, many of the ITFs seemed to have disappear too in this country? Makes it hard to get better without the competition to play.

    If American juniors want to really get better, they will have to move to Europe where the land of tennis opportunity and many tournaments await.

    Then, they come back to America and get the college tennis spots.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
  39. gameboy

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    I am sorry, but I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here...
     
  40. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Rufus, I am guessing you know that the US is the only country that has competitive college sports.........except for club stuff like Oxford-Cambridge rowing.......and I am guessing that your question was a rhetorical one.

    So, maybe your point is that if other countries did have college sports they would prevent US tennis players from getting a free ride (heck the US even prevents that for US men)

    I wonder how you arrived at that conclusion.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
  41. gameboy

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    Why do you believe that universities care about helping Americans play better tennis?

    Personally, I don't know if what USTA is doing today is going to help or hurt American tennis in the long run, but at least USTA does (and should) care about making American tennis better. Universities couldn't care less. USTA can ask for caps, but I highly doubt NCAA will listen. Even NFL cannot coordinate athletic programs with NCAA, why do you think USTA can?
     
  42. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Also, at least in one conference, the empirical data does not support what you are suggesting, that 'market forces' will correct this. In the PAC-12, with only a couple of outliers(UT and Washington State), use of foreign players appears inversely correlated to success. Here this years women's conference result, from last to first, with the number of foreign players and number of US players :

    School, Foreign Players, American Players
    CU 5 2
    Washington 5 2
    Oregon 6 4
    Utah 2 7
    Arizona State 3 5
    Arizona 5 3
    Washington State 8 2
    Cal 6 4
    UCLA 1 12
    Stanford 0 8
    USC 1 10

    Market forces do not appear to be working.
     
  43. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    My point was that the USTA, the governing board for tennis in this country, at best doesn't seem to care,

    about the rest of the juniors in this country. And therefore, we will not be receiving any support in this area.

    Wayne Bryan in his open letter that circulated the internet brought up this problem,

    and Patrick in his very detailed response letter back to Wayne ( and the viewing public) ignored the issue.
     
  44. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    The reason he did not address it is two fold. #1 Internationals playing college tennis in the U.S. raise the level of the game. Thus the Americans who strive to compete against the best and not have things given to them, have to raise their level of play. #2. It's really not as big a problem a people make it up to be when you get right down to it. See the proof. http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/USTA_Intl_SA_FAQ_FINAL_CLEAN.pdf
     
  45. gameboy

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    That depends. How many of the American players from USC, Stanford, and UCLA outside the top 20 ranking nationally (for their entry year)?
     
  46. rufus_smith

    rufus_smith Professional

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    Your document shows that any US junior ranked worse than 300 has little chance. Yet there are at least 1,000 US high school players who actively trained and played tennis and would like to have a tennis college scholarship. Many come from middle class cash-strapped parents.
     
  47. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    What do you suggest the USTA should do?

    (Cards face up on the table......with ClarkC's great post in mind.......the USTA did zilch for my kid, except sponsor lots of tournaments. Kid got D1 offers. We got no complaints about USTA not caring about us. No complaints about foreigners playing at schools that did not offer or foreigners playing at schools that did offer. If your child did not get an offer or you are not confident he/she will get an offer, I can empathize with your feelings, but still cannot concur on the point)
     
  48. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Andfor -

    I think this is a bit dated...

    Copying the first table -
    According to the NCAA’s 2006-2007 Student-Athlete Race and Ethnicity Report (the most recent data available to the public):
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
  49. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    How does the document show that kids ranked below 300 have little chance? Break that down for us?

    Did a little looking and it looks like players around ranked 1000 are finding places to play. Class of 2012 http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/list.asp?id=1125&order=rank&page=10. Class of 2011 http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/list.asp?id=1115&order=rank&page=10 Since I won't name the kids you have to look a little around the number 1000.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
  50. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Try to discredit it all you want. More proof then the "what I noticed" that goes on here all the time on this subject.

    Since you have nothing to refute it, I'll say the numbers are likely similar until proven otherwise.
     

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