Forgive me you Sissies

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Mick3391, Dec 21, 2012.

  1. goober

    goober Legend

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    Besides injruy, 90% of people who go out and play tennis without any instruction will end up with

    1) Pancake or waiter's grip serve
    2) Ugly looking backhand
    3) inability to volley consistently
    4) bad overall form and footwork


    You basically see the people all the time on public courts. Jake McClain was a perfect example.

    If they play this way for long time they actually can get very consistent. Problem is that if they keep hitting the same way they can practice 10,000 hours and still be 3.5.
     
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  2. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    There is some truth to this but I don't think anyone said no instruction, certainly in every sport there is need for some instruction. Most of the players I know that get injured are experienced players with good technique but have gotten older and are not as physically sound as they should be.

    Most instructors would say that rafas forehand is incorrect or roddicks serve, same with johnny macs serve. These guys made a lot of money with some unorthodox tennis techniques.
     
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  3. Mick3391

    Mick3391 Professional

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    You may be right about that, but I started at like 12 and never got injured aside from the typical scratches or falling down. In fact I've never been injured until this year at 38, and that is only because I guess time is catching up with me. I don't remember any kids on the team getting injured.

    I wish everyone could start at 12 or younger, like most things I think it makes things easier, like when people say "Tennis is hard", I have no clue what that means, seems like I've always played so it's not hard.

    Seems like when you are an adult and start, then it's hard. It's like computers, some things are difficult for me, but my son just does it like a second language, no problem. Something happens to people when we grow up I think, not sure why.
     
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  4. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Well Mick3391, for an op that you said you thought about deleting after you posted it, it's elicited some pretty good comments, imo. I have to agree with the posters who said that qualified instruction really does help, and for some it's absolutely necessary.

    But I also agree with what I take to be your main point(s), in that the key to improvement is work. That is, work without instruction sometimes results in improvement, but instruction without work doesn't.

    Hope you're having a great holidays, and if you're ever in my area ... let's hit some tennis balls. :)
     
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  5. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Wise observation, imo. Effective coaching/instructing skills seem to me like they would be very difficult to learn. I have a lot of respect for people who are able to analyze the game in depth and in ways that would never even occur to me -- and then communicate just the right stuff (which might take the form of "broad strokes, or the form of specific technical instructions) to somebody to improve their game (provided the student also puts in the necessary work).
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2012
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  6. Mick3391

    Mick3391 Professional

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    I would love to be in your area, and to hit with you:)

    I think if I made a mistake it's only because I've used anecdotal evidence, that is I started at 12 playing my brother who was 21, and was just never taught, was never injured, and at 14 played starting Varsity, only thing I can remember being taught was in 9th grade my coach told me to hit my serve the second the ball drops, aside from that I just played, no one taught me how to hit any shot, and no I don't think I'm a natural. Maybe when you are a kid it's just easier like it is for kids today on computers.

    I like what that one guy said, that you give direction, but not exact technical advice. You know, "Fire to their backhand as much as you can as numbers are on your side" as opposed to "Well run past the ball, stop, place your feet exactly like this, make sure you are holding the racquet just like this, and blah blah", what is taught may not be right for that person.

    So I guess all I am saying is that yea generalities are great, but I don't think there is any substitute for playing, for trial and error, I just don't see tennis as a robotic thing that one piece of input can really help.
     
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  7. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Ok, hope that happens some day.

    I certainly agree with this. No substitute for concentrated court time. Just get out and WORK on stuff. :) It's really amazing what that can do for a person's game. :)

    What do you think of this?:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUdTxXkecr8
     
    #57
  8. Mick3391

    Mick3391 Professional

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    First, I live in Seattle, so I'd LOVE to come to Florida, I used to live in Southern Cal, so it's much better playing in your weather than what I call "Water Tennis"! Plus you are a scientist, I'm fascinated by science, but I'm sure we'll never get down there, come up here and let's see how you do on the water!

    Listening to your video I'm making notes, I disagree with his supposition, that is that sheer will of body can't make you play well, I don't believe that, I believe it's mental. As he's going on I agree totally, after I make a great play it's like "I did that"? I'm not thinking per se as I'm doing it. A guy interviewed Federer right after he destroyed this guy and he said "How did you do it, were you in what we call the zone", Federer said "I have no idea, I'd have to see the tape, I'm amazed myself". Same deal with boxers, after Leonard knocked out Ayub Kalu, I forget his name, but it was a beautiful three punch combination, they asked him about it and he said "I don't know what I did, I'd have to see the tape".

    I believe Tennis is 100% mental, the mind see's pictures of other players, whether on TV or on court, it brings the body into the game, I mean when you are really doing well do you say to yourself as your opponent jams it over "Well I'm going to cut across the ball and hold my racquet just like this", or do you just do it?

    John Wooden was a great basketball coach for I think it was UCLA. He'd have his team come out and shoot free throws, only thing is that they didn't use balls, they visualized the ball swishing each time. Well once he put a ball in their hands their free throws went way up. Same deal with Tennis, take a break and just watch Tennis, go back and you'll play better, because it's your brain taking over, then you will go back into making the same mistakes as before.

    Recently at one of my sons tournaments, my friend and I just watched, it went on and on, so frustrating, they all played poor, I wanted to play SO BAD, I was just visualizing playing, when the tourney was over I grabbed a coach, man I felt unbeatable, every shot was PERFECT, EVERY ONE, I couldn't miss, I was so tired I almost passed out. That's visualization, I'm a big believer in it.

    Yea that is a good video, getting 100 corrections hurts, doesn't help, same deal when you are playing, if aware of what you are doing you are thinking, and if thinking you aren't reacting, and if not reacting you are making mistakes. For example if I'm down game point, missed my first serve, I might think "Don't miss this", I have to wait until I clear my mind and just DO IT. If I think "If I miss this serve I lose", I will miss, guaranteed, so I have to do it.

    You know I, until I started training my son and came on this forum NEVER THOUGHT about technique or what I do, I like I said always just played, when I tried to teach my son how to serve I didn't even know how I did it, I had to serve a few times and observe what I was doing.
     
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  9. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    I am 56 yo and play with a variety of 4.5 females and 4.0-4.5 males. Most of us are between 35-65. Almost all the players 45 and older have had a significant injury from tennis. Several of these players played college level tennis. One of the players was a D1 all-American and he has had multiple knee surgeries. Tennis elbow is the most common, knee ACL and/or meniscus tears, ankle tendinitis, shoulder tendinitis and a variety of stains, pulls and tears are all very common. Most of these players use reasonably good technique and still suffer from over-use type injuries.

    I play/practice 4-5 times a week but hard practice/play needs to be balanced with exercise (stretch and strengthen) and rest. Most hard core tennis players do a crappy job of rest because we are all a bit OCD additive about playing and tend to play too much and not rest enough in my view.

    Anyhow, I have had 11 days off for the holidays and return to practice today.
     
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  10. Coach Chad

    Coach Chad Rookie

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    I also agree to an extent...a good coach helps inspire a person to develope a style suited to them...not the coaches style...this means a person must play, play, and play some more!
     
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  11. Mick3391

    Mick3391 Professional

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    Sorry about your injuries.

    That's funny though, the OCD part, yea this year I've been hurt, taken pain medicine and just played. Everyone says "You must rest", I just can't, just play though it.

    I've NEVER stretched, everyone says to, I guess I'm subburn, but no never stretched, never injured, but time is catching up to me so I better learn to stretch!

    My older brother who introduced me to Tennis emailed me from the hospital, just had a new Titanium knee! Said he can play in like a month or so.
     
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  12. Mick3391

    Mick3391 Professional

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    Me teaching someone is a disaster! My heart goes out to all instructors, don't know how they do it.

    I taught my son how to hold a racquet Eastern grip, how to push/pull a shot, and where you should hit, but everytime I open my mouth he plays worse, whenever we forget and just play he's much better.

    He learned from watching me, for example I do a radical side spin that when it drops goes like 3 feet the side direction, I couldn't show him with the racquet, he just picked it up. I showed him how Fed runs around a backhand, he does that beautifully, but yea me as a teacher is a disaster!
     
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  13. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    #63
  14. slowfox

    slowfox Professional

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    #64
  15. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    well - all these debates are to the point of being so ridiculous, that I am almost thinking
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
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  16. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Thank you and yes, it is imo.
    I think this is a great way to look at the differences in Jy and MTM instruction.
    We saw it in the tlm video challenge.
    Jy, even on here, heaps tons of details; way more than a student can use, with
    some critical subtle errors..like his classic unit turn....etc..
    Too much info is the classic mistake of newer coaches and some don't catch it.
    MTM, on the other hand, offers more of a general point in the right direction on
    basics, and lets you feel your way a bit, with a big emphasis on avoiding any false info.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
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  17. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Good points I think. Will take this into account while trying to appreciate what both JY and OW have to offer.
     
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  18. the hack

    the hack New User

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    Live to hit, hit to live

    TomT, I have read several of your posts. You have the makings of a true Tennis Bum. I have been to Florida twice to play tennis and would like to come again. Maybe we can hit when I make it over your way.
     
    #68
  19. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    I still love to play tennis after 35 years. So, I try to take care of myself so I can play as long as possible. I actaully like working out too so it isn't a hassle. I need to drop 10 lbs to take some stress off the legs.
     
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