Formal pingpong player, new to tennis, welcome to critique my forehand

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by greendrug, Oct 27, 2009.

  1. greendrug

    greendrug New User

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    I'm been learning tennis for 4 month approximately, this is my forehand video taken one month ago, at that time I use semi-western grip, but right now, I changed to Western GRIP. welcome any instructions and criticisms :)

    PS: I'm a former ping-pong player who once played at province level back in China, but recently found more fun playing tennis here at USA. I feel I'm improving very fast given my backhand and forehand are well balanced, and my serve become more and more consistent, most importantly, I'm able to hit up to 10 forehand winners in one set when playing with 3.5 players, that being that, I really hope I can get to 4.0 by the end of this year :oops:

    Here is the link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sExt19r5Ttk :)
     
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  2. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    Probably not a good at this stage. You want to learn to hit through the ball and take it early, more aggressively.

    In terms of your movement, your feet are light, but you want to work on your step patterns.

    When moving forward or into court, step out with the foot closest to the ball, or closest to where you think you'll hit the ball. One way to do this is to keep your trunk fairly open or parallel with the net. If your trunk turns too much, then that suggests you're stepping out with the wrong foot.

    Don't set up your stance until you're actually ready to execute your groundstroke.
     
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  3. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    I think you will be pretty good - you already are pretty light on your feet like tricky says and fairly consistent.

    However I say go back to the semi-western. You will get more pace on your shots. Even Nadal doesn't actually use the Western. Also I think your hitting falling back too much. You want to try to stay on balance as much as possible.

    Tricky is right about the stepping out with the outside foot bit but I find this really hard to implement as well - I have to admit.

    Pete
     
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  4. Big bag of squirrels

    Big bag of squirrels New User

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    great stuff for only 4 months! One thing I noticed was a lot of your forehands were loopy and ended up fairly short (hard to see for sure). This could give you some real problems against experienced players. Your backhand looks a little more traditional, flatter, more depth. The western grip will also give you problems with lower balls, which is certainly what you'll tend to see more of at the 3.5-4.0 range. Keep up the good work!
     
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  5. featherlight

    featherlight Professional

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    try to hit through the ball to flatten the ball , good job after playing for 4 months
     
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  6. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    My own bias would be to stick with the SW rather than the Western grip.

    Very good looking forehand. However, it does look suspiciously like a ping-pong forehand loop swing. For table tennis (pp), the body tends to rotate as a single unit, more or less. For court tennis, the body links (in the kinetic chain) are more segmented. The action starts with the legs and hips. Shortly after the hips start their rotation, the torso rotates and then the arm starts its forward swing shortly after that.

    What I see with pp is that the hips and torso rotate at the same time and the arm also swings as part of this rotation. In tennis, there is usually more of an offset between the hip rotation and the torso rotation and also a slight delay for the forward swing of the arm & racquet. I only see a hint of this in your FH stroke -- it appears to be a hybrid motion between the pp FH loop and a normal tennis FH swing.
     
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  7. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I think you look super for 4 months and have an excellent basis for building your game. Much of the advice you get on this forum will try to pull towards more conventional strokes, but your way is closer to the modern strokes and is probably why you are so far along for 4 months. You are already starting to control your depth well at times with these type strokes and it will just get better as you develop more feel like you had in table tennis.
     
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  8. 4sound

    4sound Semi-Pro

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    Like the others said, good progress for 4 months.

    Try to get the shoulder turn and racket back earlier on the ball coming to you. Use the ball bounce on your side as a cue. In general you should have your shoulder turn and racket back by the time it bounces on your side. This will help for different types of ball speeds coming.

    Think about getting forward lean on bounce.

    Have fun.
     
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  9. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    The so-called "modern" strokes still uses the kinetic chain in the manner that I described. His FH stoke is closer to table tennis FH loop than a tennis FH stroke. It appears to work for him because he achieved a a very high athletic level as a pp player and has learned to adapt that technique to tennis.

    I believe that the SW grip will help him to get greater depth on his shots yet still get more than enough topspin. If he can get the depth with the full W grip and learn, vary his spin rates, deal with low contact points, hit drop shots, etc., then the W grip might well suit him.
     
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  10. greendrug

    greendrug New User

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    Wow...U comments about the differences between PP FH and T FH is very insightful, which is something I didn't realize before. And I agree with your conclusion that my FH "appears to be a hybrid motion between the pp FH loop and a normal tennis FH swing":oops:
     
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  11. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    I think you need to also develop a flat shot. Your forehand looks good, but it is super loopy and has no pace. I watched the other guy barely move the whole time to return shots. If you can hit how you hit now and also have a flatter shot with pace, you will be able to throw people off rythm.
     
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  12. greendrug

    greendrug New User

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    Thanks for your tips. With regard to the full western grip, actually, I feel I always change my grip between semi to full constantly depends on different situations, like if my opponet's return pushes me very hard, I will use full wetsern grip to hit high loop and deep shot to give myself time back in position also I mostlty use fWG during rally, but for the approaching shot and ricky shot aiming for winners,normally I use semi-western grip. :)
     
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  13. AAAA

    AAAA Hall of Fame

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    For 4 months play you look at least average in terms on foot work and forehand technique if not a much better than average.

    Some of the forehands are really loopy, if you switch to a semi-western forehand I think you'll start hitting flatter forehands naturally, I do at least.
     
    #13
  14. richjohn

    richjohn New User

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    Salute!

    You can probably beat most Ping Pong players in the National level in the USA if you were a competitive provincial player in China.

    That is why you picked tennis up quickly in four months: you have good control of balls, you are moving well...basically you have above average eye and hand coordination skills.

    But your forehand by far is still more like a heavy topspin ping pong shot.

    Find a coach, I think you can go beyond 5.0+

     
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  15. Wes_Loves_Dunlop

    Wes_Loves_Dunlop Professional

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    You are very good for playing for 4 moths, but your footwork on your forehand is very unstable. Your weight is on your back foot so when you hit your forehand,you tend to step back. This is very bad when playing against better players because your shots will go high and slow and it will be pummeled.
     
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  16. Kenny022593

    Kenny022593 Professional

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    Since i am not good at giving advice i will ask a question.

    What camera did you use? It seems crystal clear
     
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  17. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    i think your tennis strokes are going to mess up your ping pong strokes.
     
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  18. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    No need for us to debate k-chain, as even the phd bio mech type guys struggle to quantify these things for tennis. My view is his K-chain is much better than what I see in most strokes we see posted from guys playing for years and will develop/ improve as he gets more time on the court.

    I agree with your perspective on grip, but don't use the same method for suggesting changes. Notice I did not mention it at all. I expect he will reach a point where he will ask certain questions that may be answered by working more toward the SW grip. I am in the camp that some things will improve as more critical adjustments are made, then you don't have to mention every little thing and clog up their head.
     
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  19. VaBeachTennis

    VaBeachTennis Semi-Pro

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    You look pretty good man. You have plenty of spin and control with that semi-western grip. If you vary your shots with some flatter strokes (swing path) from the forehand wing, you will be pretty formidable.

    Do what works for you as long as it's effective.

    Good luck man!!!
     
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  20. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Don't know if you are serious or not, but I believe that his high-level pp strokes are probably very well grooved already. I'm sure that even if he develops more of a tennis kinetic chain on his FH, his muscle memory will kick right in when he picks up a pp bat (paddle). Don't believe that he'll have much problem switching back & forth.

    On the other hand, my own pp strokes are very tennis-like cuz I've never really worked that much on devloping proper pp strokes such as the FH loop. (NOTE: For those who are unaware, the term 'loop' in table tennis has a somewhat different meaning to the tennis concept of 'loop'). However, I have no problem at all switching back & forth between tennis & badminton.
     
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  21. VaBeachTennis

    VaBeachTennis Semi-Pro

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    I can switch from handball to tennis with no problem, PP to tennis no problem, paddleball to tennis no problem, but badminton to tennis kicks my ass!!! LOL
    I actually play handball to warm up for tennis sometimes.
     
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  22. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    i know one guy who has played on the us olympics table tennis team and he doesn't play tennis because he fears it would mess up his table tennis game.
    maybe it's just his phobia :)
     
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  23. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I think tennis players (rec) need to move more your direction than you moving to theirs. Look at this Davydenko vid.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3lw7MjJqsg

    I think Davydenko has some of the best Modern Tennis strokes on tour and I thought of him as I watched your vid. Not that you have it down perfect in only 4 months, but quite amazing towards this direction.
    Just another point of view.
     
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  24. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    To help you get a more consistent forehand, you are gonna have to stretch out that non-dominant arm. It looks like a broken chicken wing when you are coiling in your backswing. Extend it and sweep your hand through the contact zone and back into your body.

    The purpose of this is to help you not overrotate or rotate too soon which you were doing on some shots. This will also help you hit cleanly and through the ball with less effort which will also help with your consistency.

    Also, your front shoulder should go more under the chin. Dont be so quick to come out of your coiling. Get a good rotation and then bring it back through the ball.

    Learn the step-out pattern to help you reduce your steps to the ball. You also need to practice being on your toes more, too often you were dropping your heels on the ground. Don't practice like that. Stay on your toes with you being slightly bent at the knees.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2009
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  25. Wes_Loves_Dunlop

    Wes_Loves_Dunlop Professional

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    Tennis does not mess up your pp form and same vice versa.
    I play pp and i am pretty good and it stays individual for each form.
     
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  26. lethalphorce

    lethalphorce New User

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    Forget the SW & Western grips and just go penhold :twisted:
     
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  27. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Sounds like a phobia or old wive's tale (misguided advice from a superstitious or uninformed coach). Would think that an athlete of that calibre would not have a problem with this at all. Heck, there are plently of advanced intermediate players that would not have a probelm with it either.
     
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  28. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    ping pong rocks!

    seriously, if you are a provincial level player, you are already a superior athlete than 95% of the people on this forum, who are mostly clueless high school kids, obese weekend hacks and so on...

    if I were you, I wouldn't ask opinions here..... you have enough athletic background to figure it out yourself... just find a good coach, or find good players (college level guys) to hit with, and you will progress really fast.

    tennis is definitely more fun than ping pong though...

    I'd actually like to see how high level badminton players play tennis.... that would be fun.
     
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  29. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Sounds like it could be more carry-overs from ping-pong. By "on your toes" means that you should be on the "balls of the feet" more.
     
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  30. GolfDad

    GolfDad New User

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    When I was growing up I played badminton competitively. When ever I tried to play tennis the coaches and others discouraged me from playing it saying it will mess up my badminton game.
     
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  31. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    also... since you are a chinese guy, there is a fantastic tennis teaching series on pplive, you should definitely check it out.
     
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  32. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Despite "the clueless high school kids", he's getting some solid advice here. What advice in particular are you referring to? Let's not diss the advice w/o some real specifics.

    20 yrs back I was playing badminton at a B level and had an A+ (national level) badminton player as a tennis doubles partner. We would incorporate a lot of badminton shots in our tournament tennis play -- 'round-the-head shots, tons of drop shots & drop volleys, push shots, deceptive badminton-like fakes, etc. Opponents were so afraid of my partner's overhead smashes that he could even get away with hitting overhead drop shots at the net.
     
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  33. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    I've heard a lot of high school coaches say the same thing. They either were not talented enough to do it themselves or they only gave tennis a few weeks before coming to this erroneous conclusion.
     
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  34. VaBeachTennis

    VaBeachTennis Semi-Pro

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    LOL, speak for yourself!!!!
     
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  35. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    it's a yes and no - cross playing other racket sports will always help in hand/eye coord, reflex, strategy and so on

    stroke mechanics wise, it may or may not help..... during the years I was playing lots of baddy, my overhead was invincible :)..... but when I play lots of table tennis, I'd always hit the tennis ball low on the stringbed because the darn thing is so much longer than a paddle :)

    but a good athlete usually won't take long to adjust from 1 sport to another, from 1 season to another..... it's the frequent mix (say ping pong 1 day, baddy the next, then tennis the next) that would be really difficult to handle.
     
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  36. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    I brought up the differences in the pp and tennis kinetic chains because I suspected that he was not fully aware of it. From his response (see highlighted text below), it appears that I was correct about this.

    That litany of reasons for using the SW rather than W grip was really for your benefit rather than his. Because you were not specific enough in post #7, it appeared that you might be suggesting that the Western grip is not something that he might reconsider.

    This guy is obviously a very high level athlete that picks up new things very quickly. I don't believe that the wealth of information that he's getting from us is overwhelming. After all, he did request feedback.



    Glad to be of service. I only wish that I could play pp as well as you play tennis. Even tho' I know the differences in the mechanics, I still tend to use my tennis strokes for pp -- I've not really spent much time to develop proper pp stroke mechanics.
     
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  37. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I play a lot of table tennis and use it to practice on rainy days and when I can't get to courts to prep for a match. I play mostly doubles in tennis it applies very well. I bought the table for my kids, who were in Jr tourneys at the time, as I found that nearly every top player I met played good table tennis. (Pros included) After getting the table, there is no doubt that our touch, especially at net, greatly improved.
     
    #37
  38. callen3615

    callen3615 Professional

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    Very good for 4 months. Only advice I would give is to flatten out your shots alittle more. But very good. ;)
     
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  39. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    I wouldn't listen to the advice to flatten your shots.... that is not your forte.... apparently in pp you are a looping player (as opposed to a speed player).....

    use the spin and the loopiness to your advantage, instead of trying to fit to what 'supposedly is the standard stroke'

    nobody is telling Nadal to flatten out his shots, why should you.

    loopiness gives you savety... and since you are a pro level athlete, this can be a major weapon as well.
     
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  40. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    You could be right.

    That is correct! :)
     
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  41. Nonentity

    Nonentity Rookie

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    -try not to hit off your back foot, rather transfer your weight into the shot. Right now your weight is either stuck back where your back foot is, or comes across your body and to the left. You need to have it go forward as you hit the ball.

    - You seem too tense. Relax your arm and relax your grip a little bit.

    - might be a good idea to wait for the ball with a continental grip, rather than holding it with forehand grip all the time, just to get in a good habit.

    - try incorporating your left arm more, like having it more or less outstretched in front of you before the shot, as it will help balance your body during rotation.

    - get the racket back just a little earlier.

    For 4 months it is awesome! keep working on your game!
     
    #41
  42. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    going slightly off topic - I'd say the FH is prolly the least of your problems.. and the couple of BH on the video looks solid also... you look to be in late 20's or early 30's, that would mean you have played pp for some 25 years... the power generation mechanism is already so engrained in brain, trying to change it to a 'standard' tennis stroke is likely counter-productive.

    I suspect your volley may need some work, but prolly not much, as it's quite similar to the pp chipping stroke.

    footwork is excellent, judging for a couple of wide balls you retrieved and recovered.

    I'd say work on strokes that has no equivalence in pp, e.g. the tennis serve, then you will become a fine 4.5 player in no time.

    also - work on how you pick up balls from the court... you are too good a player to be bending down and picking up balls with your left hand.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2009
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  43. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I was actually trying to not be directly argumentative about about it, but since you mention again; We don't agree with what you are trying to say about the Kchain differences, as I believe they should be very similar in these two sports. IMO think many of the big differences that many tennis players make are not effective overall.

    I went back to #7 post and can't see where you get any ref as to what he should do with his grip, and in fact I avoided purposely, seeing that he makes adjustments in grips for various shots and seems to be working thru that already. I think you had grip on your mind and read into my post more than was there.

    As to high level athletes getting too much info, surely you realize that is one of the things coaches are very careful of with the pros, and that is even when they are training in their own specialized sport. They can be as affected by info overload as newbies. I didn't say you gave too much, but only that I was careful to try not to.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2009
    #43
  44. greendrug

    greendrug New User

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    Gee... Am I looking that old:cry: I'm only 21, junior student at university:oops:And that's also why I've been working so hard for the past 4month, I think I get lots of potential to improve, actually, to be a 4.0s is my goal for this year. Plus this video was taken one month ago, it was very cold outside which affect me a little bit I think, right now I think I'm playing at a new level close to 4.0 player; I can often hit fast path shot down the line and my serve is also deadly for 3.5s, I can finish the game by serving sometimes (need to work on consistency a little bit though). Actually, the biggest problem for me is VOLLEY, I tend to use too much wrist rather than shoulder and upper arm to control my racket, which I think is the muscle memory from playing PP. Anyway, thanks for your advices :-|
     
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  45. greendrug

    greendrug New User

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    #45
  46. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    LOLOL.... sorry about the wild guess on the age thing..... internet video can be deceiving....

    I am a little surprised when you say the volley is your biggest issue... well, when you hit those chip/push shots in pingpong, don't you vary the amount of spin you put on the ball? a volley would feel like those pushes where you don't add any spin to it.... keep your elbow close to your body, and you are all set... you will figure it out.. you are too good an athlete not to.

    also, picking the ball from the court thing, don't do one of those pinching the ball between the racket and the shoe... that still looks 3.5ish.... tap the ball with the racket face down, 2-3 taps you should get the ball up.... that will make you a legit 4.5
     
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  47. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Post #7 (quote above) did not mention grips but it did "appear" to dismiss the advice given by tricky, myself and others. I really threw in the 2nd paragraph about his grip change as an afterthought because it was difficult to determine your point(s) of contention. I had thought that your vague statement might be about that (since several of us had mentioned it). Prior to that I had not really given that much weight to the grip issue.

    Yes, there is always the "danger" or possibility of providing too much info. However, many students and posters on these forums seem to thrive on the detail & insight provided by people like tricky and myself whereas others would prefer either holistic or very simple answers. Others might prefer the insight provided by BB, by yourself, or others. Variety is the spice of life. It would be boring & less effective for the masses if we all presented the same insight in very the same manner.

    However, can't disagree with you more on the question of pp FH mechanics differing from tennis FH mechanics (either classic or "modern"). Even the OP, who is very well acquainted with the mechanics of the pp FH loop, is now aware of the diffs.

    Perhaps you are not all that familiar with the "modern" execution of the pp FH loop. I'll provide one example now to help illustrate it (I'll try to dig up a better one later):

    http://vimeo.com/4502513

    Hopefully, this vid should make it clear enough that there is a distinct difference between pp FH mechanics and tennis FH mechanics. After watching this vid, go back and watch the OP'ss tennis FH -- my comments about it should make more sense in this context.
     
    #47
  48. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    I think that's the beauty of forums like this one. You get a variety of different answers that you can pick and choose from. Most which are usually very informative (as long as you can sort out the diamonds from the trash, which is pretty easy to do with a little common sense).
     
    #48
  49. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    From what I have observed, it is fundamentals that are being preached here and not any one method. Tricky, SA, and many others have been consistent in keeping players focused on the fundamentals and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Even Oscar agreed with me that he simpy took what was happening and developed his own instruction for it. There is no Father of Tennis title or inventions of any kind other than his own view on how to teach tennis right or wrong.

    Whether a player chooses to use the WW or a more classic stroke, the fundamentals of balance, positioning, footwork, conditioning, movement, and executing whatever stroke chosen correctly is what is preached here which some fail to acknowledge from the camp of MTM. Well, I take that back. To be fair, TeachesTennis does acknowledge this like when I mention that people still need to extend through the ball no matter what method is bring preached.

    Advocating for good fundamentals somehow is being watered down as "conventional" by those with only one purpose, PROMOTE OSCAR WEGNERS TEACHING DVD's AT ALL COST.

    Whether you use Oscar's teachings or you follow someone here, fundamentals that include the areas of balance, etc...are common in all strokes.

    There is nobody here that says that a forehand can only be hit with a classic swoosh pattern. There is nobody here that says the racquet must go back right away or else.

    NOBODY SAYS THAT HERE.

    We discuss the smile pattern, the pat-the-dog-on-the-head positions which are accurate for today's tennis, the C pattern for the forehand, the western, semi-western, eastern, continental grips. We discuss volley techniques, footwork techniques and provide drills and other things to help a player no matter if disagreement takes place or a variety of approaches form.

    Whether it is Tricky, SA, or other devoted coaches here on this site, if a coach only promoted old fashion strokes they most likely would be challenged by many of us here. Even if we disagree on the little things, I have not once seen coaches as these promote or advocate a "conventional stroke" or drag someone down on conventional methods.

    The bottom-line is, anyone who says that these boards ONLY pull people to a "conventional stroke or teaching" is full of nonsense and should be called out as a liar.

    MTM is just a teaching method that uses principles and fundamentals already known.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2009
    #49
  50. greendrug

    greendrug New User

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2009
    Messages:
    10
    WoW... that's what we call dedication and professionalism, really hope some of the coaches here or there can visit China and give instructions directly to the coach staff there. From what I've heard, the lack of good coach is the major reason why tennis in China is kinda lagged behind the world right now particularly on the men side. Also, china is a big potential market for tennis, lots of people like tennis there, but the the lack of access to formal and professional caching make people give it up quickly considering tennis is really a difficulty sport to pick up and understand for most people, of course, the fact that the expense of plying tennis in China is really expensive even for westerns also needs to be taken into account( Maybe due to Lack of facility). Anyway, thanks for your nice instructions, I've learned a lot especially the weight transfer, the use of left arm, and of course "HITTING THROUGH THE BALL", I practice tennis almost everyday for 2 hours, and I feel kinda addicted to this sports 'casue I enjoy the big challenges from it which I didn't find in table-tennis. :)
     
    #50

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