Free weights VS resistance bands ?

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by junbumkim, Dec 3, 2012.

  1. couch

    couch Hall of Fame

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    This is exactly what I have struggled with the last year or so. I think a combination of both is best. I think it also depends on what you are training for, your age and ability to recover.

    I have done Crossfit the last three years and really enjoy those types of workouts and the competition involved. I would consider myself in good shape, especially for my age, I'm 42. I have maxed out at 365 on back squats and 405 on dead lift. I weigh 180.

    The problem with Crossfit is the a ability to recover and play tennis at your peak ability. At least for me. I did band workouts for 2-3 months and had tremendous success with them and was able to recover quicker and faster. We would do HIIT training with the bands similar to Crossfit. We would also mix in sprints with the different exercises.

    If you are just trying to build strength then I don't think there is a question on what's better for that- free-weights.

    If you are trying to train for tennis and the physical/cardio demands involved I think a combination of free-weights, bands, and HIIT training might be best. Maybe free weights for just strength training and bands combined with HIIT training to help with tennis conditioning and recovery.

    Any thoughts?
     
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  2. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I agree very good advise for tennis training and conditioning.
     
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  3. maverick66

    maverick66 Hall of Fame

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    I have one and all I can say is no its not.
     
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  4. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I agree TRX is a very good way to train, especially when combined with free weights.
     
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  5. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    TRX is a ton better then nothing. As is say one of those very adjustable cable weight machines and a bench. (You know the kind they often use for rehab)..

    I happen to think free weights are the overall best but most gyms are going to have access to all three - especially if they have a dumbell set up..

    But these arguments in general are a waste - its like arguing what kind of amplifier is the best. Plenty of amplifiers can do the job extremely well - its going to depending on the speakers source etc.

    Guys can get in fabulous shape using all kind of methods..resistance training in general works. Even straight up hammer strength machines can give people real world results..
     
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  6. maverick66

    maverick66 Hall of Fame

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    All these things are a tool. Thats it. They are not systems or greater than others. People get to wound up in im just gonna use this or that because its the best and really limit their growth for fitness.

    There is many tools out there that can assist and some I use just because its fun to me to try new things in the gym. I am not one of those guys that can do the same exercise over and over with only the weight and rep scheme different. I need a challenge and its gotten me into a bunch of great stuff.

    TRX, kettlebells, bands, free weights, hell even yoga and group classes use them all. Nobody here needs to specify unless your on a rehab program.
     
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  7. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Anyone that wants to get into working out should take note of this post. To the people who have worked out for years already know this, there are many different methods to train with and I agree that they are tools.

    No perfect way or one way and of course it does depend on what you are after. But it is good to experiment and mix it up to keep it interesting, especially the longer you work out for the more you need the variety.
     
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  8. superdave3

    superdave3 Rookie

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    Great post!!! Thanks!
     
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  9. NineMileSkid

    NineMileSkid Rookie

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    Real strenght is always good.
     
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  10. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    for some purposes the bands are very good (rotator cuff for example) but for the big muscles I prefer weights.
     
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  11. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    well his System definitely works as his guys get super strong (but with roids...).

    however nole Looks like an anorexic child and he is number one in the world, so maybe we don't Need a ton of weight Training.
     
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  12. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    The point being that what Simmons has done works for what westside wants. That is get strong in a very specific powerlifting federation, one not known for being strict on depth, and yes they are pretty much all on drugs. If any person has come out of westside and been successful in the USAPL or IPF i'd be pretty impressed.

    The other point being that some of the stuff Louie says is batshit insane. Like the fact that he completely believes that his methods would apply perfectly to Olympic weightlifters, and that given the opportunity he could produce an international champion with those methods. I also think he's made claims that Olympic weightlifting is a trick, not real strength etc etc.
     
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  13. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    yes but still those guys are super strong. much stronger than anyone would Need to be in Tennis. I'm sure that most top Tennis Players only bench like 200 or so, maybe the bigger ones like 300. you simply don't Need those Levels of strength for Tennis.
     
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  14. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    I thought it was settled that you need to be able to squat 2.5x your body weight in order to safely play tennis.:confused::twisted:
     
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  15. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    Hahahahaha

    To be fair I think it was stated that 2.5xbw was something an elite level player should reach.

    It also happens to be more than anyone on this forum squats
     
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  16. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Vasily Alekseyev

    FYI - Famous weightlifter from the 1970s Olympics - "Worlds's Strongest Man" Vasily Alekseyev.

    Maybe some of you remember this champion Russian weightlifter prominent in the Olympics in the 1970s.

    Brief history
    http://store.sorinex.com/Articles.asp?ID=253

    Records and comments by contempories.
    http://www.chidlovski.net/liftup/l_athleteresult.asp?a_id=5

    Clean & Jerk Video, includes setting his 66th world record.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ngko5tAwkk

    Alekseyev's squat training for the Olympic clean & jerk. See his comments on the squat in training.
    http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/sportivny/library/farticles004.html

    Squat 270 Kg, body weight about 160 Kg (350 lbs).
    He squatted about 1.7X body weight to train for the clean & jerk.

    Interview.
    http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/w...lifting/interview-vasili-alexeyev-340962.html

    Steriods?
    http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/passionateeyeshowcase/2010/biggerstrongerfaster/history.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/28/sports/vasily-alekseyev-69-champion-weight-lifter-dies.html?_r=0

    I once read that he would get out of breath relatively easily climbing stairs when he was a competitor but I could not just now confirm that information searching the internet.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
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  17. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    Several points

    One of course Alexeev was on drugs. Two 270kg does not represent his limit strength, simply what he chose to train with. Obviously he is capable of far more (if you disagree with this i'd love to see an argument as to why). This is simply representative of his training methodology, not his capabilities.

    Russian weightlifter Dmitri Klokov is never seen back squatting but reports are that his "max" is 300kg. In all likelihood this is not a true max as he can be seen doing a 250kg front squat with something like a 4 second pause in the hole. It's simply not a lift they train for their sport because their programming does not call for it, and the drugs they're likely on does not necessitate it.

    Max Aita has squatted 302kg at a bodyweight of 100kg but his best clean and jerk was 170kg (granted at the time he made that lift his best squat was probably closer to 250kg and at a bodyweight of around 85kg)

    Further, bodyweight multipliers do not apply well to heavier individuals. That's the reason why the sinclair coefficient and wilks score exist in Olympic Weightlifting and Powerlifting respectively. There's a reason why the only guy to ever deadlift over 5xBW did it under 140lbs and the two guys that have deadlifted over 1000lbs had a multiplier of under 4xbw.
     
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  18. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    After 2.5 BW was mentioned so often as a joke I decided to research the most famous bodybuilder that I was familiar with. I thought that he would be strong in squatting also, probably in competitions. Apparently not. I thought that the story might be generally interesting especially to those who remember Vasily Alekseyev in the Olympics.

    Thanks for the interesting information.
     
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  19. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    Not sure if the last part is sarcastic or not

    Here's Tom Platz (bodybuilder) doing 500lbsx23

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjtVvYk1HWw

    Various reports say that this was post retirement and that he was stronger in his competitions days, and he weighed around 200lbs when he did this (which would make this about a 2.5xbw set)

    Tom like to play tennis apparently
     
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  20. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    I'm a fan of a squatting, but I was ridiculing the 2.5x standard a little bit. That's a very elite standard for most people. And Platz is a horrible example for a tennis player as he was known for his freakish leg strength and size.

    The average tennis player would need to go on an extensive steroids and eating routine to get the muscle mass to do multiple reps with 2.5x bodyweight.
     
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  21. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    Once again I wouldn't call it elite (unless you're on the heavier end) in absolute terms. Perhaps for tennis though but that level of absolute strength is likely unnecessary. I.e. chasing a 2.5xbw won't do as much for your tennis game as actually improving technique

    I wasn't intending to use Tom as an example of a tennis player that squats, rather as a better example of a bodybuilder that squats very well for Chas, in contrast to whomever he looked up
     
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  22. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    When I was a sprinter, I don't recall anyone doing 2.5x bw, and one of my team mates made the Olympic trials in the 100 meters. One of my friends would do sets with about 2.5x bodyweight but he was a lunatic (though natural amateur bodybuilder) who would sometimes vomit blood after a particularly heavy set. It just seems quite rare to me (perhaps not elite) for any amateur athlete to squat 2.5x bw, except for power lifters and serious bodybuilders.

    At that time, I could pull 2.5x my bodyweight with straps, but I was never good at the back squat.
     
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  23. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    It could be that I'm spoiled by being surrounded by strong individuals on a daily basis and am so close to 2.5xbw that I dont think it's a big deal, but in reality it could be a lot rarer than my exposure

    Vomiting blood after a set does not sound good though, sure he was natural?
     
    #73
  24. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    the lighter you are the easier it is to squat 2 times or whatever BW. there is not a linear correlation between lifted weight and BW.

    a 2 times BW squatter at 250 is much stronger than a 2 times BW squatter at 160.
    for that reason powerlifters use the wilks formula to compare weight classes and not simple times BW.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilks_Coefficient

    regarding Alexeev: 270 was a pinky weight for him, he could easily handle well over 300 kilos. however still very few at close to 300 pounds is squatting 2.5 times BW (unequipped) while you won't win anything with a 2.5 times BW squat at 150.

    times BW for a squat is just raw measurement (although tennis players all fall in a pretty small weight range from 160-180 (unless they are "freaks" like isner, karlovic or rochus on the other side of the spectrum).
     
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  25. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Tennis players with large muscles & the Biomechanics of Muscle Cells

    Who are some the more successful tennis players that have been more heavily muscled? Especially in the legs and glutes?

    Not a very well informed view of the muscle cell but -

    In terms of the stretch shortening cycle, the Hill Muscle Model and the microscopic description of muscle cell function, the squat involves mostly actin & myocin active muscle shortening. There may be some stretch used in some squatting techniques at the bottom.

    The actin-myosin active shortening appears to be slow in this animation.
    http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sit...ter10/animation__myofilament_contraction.html

    Illustrations - Actin, Myosin & Titin
    https://www.google.com/search?q=act...HGebX0QGSioG4Bw&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1312&bih=703

    Besides the actin & myosin in each muscle sacomere there is a giant protein molecule, Titin, that stretches. Titin has been researched since the 1990s(?) for its passive shortening properties from a pre-stretched state. I believe the current belief is that stretch occurs within each muscle cell because of Titin and is not a property of an overall muscle-tendon spring. For muscle shortening biomechanical researchers study Force vs Velocity of both the active & passive components of muscle shortening. My interpretation of references is that the active shortening provided by the actin & myosin may fail to provide force at high velocities while the passive shortening provided by Titin can still provide force.

    Squatting probably more trains the Actin & Myosin for slower movements. Plyometrics probably more trains the Titin for faster movements.

    Maybe since the legs in tennis are used mostly for slower motions, such as leg thrust on the serve, maybe squats are useful.

    For the faster arm motions maybe the Actin & Myosin training is less important.

    Resistance bands can be used at higher velocities where, for example, the mass of dumbbells makes them difficult to stop at higher velocities.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
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