Fun take: 2007 Nadal was better than 2011 Nadal on all surfaces when healthy

[NatF]

Well in 2010 Djokovic won the Davis Cup pretty much single handedly for Serbia and was about to go on his monster 2011 run so I'd say his form was pretty decent. In 2013 he was the world number 1 so.......

Djokovic at the end of 2010 was still being owned by Fedal, (lost to Federer three straight times) I guess beating Berdych, Monfils and Simon in Davis Cup equals 2011 level to you In 2013 Djokovic played a subpar match, look at the stats and the run of play.

Stuff like "but but he won Davis Cup" and "but but he was number one" don't say anything about his play on the day which is what I'm referring to.

 

[ForehandRF]

I don't think listing his achievements from other, separate tournaments helps support the arguments that he played well in either final. Federer was also ranked No. 1 when he played one of the worst matches of his career against Volandri in Rome 2007. Likewise, Nadal was also the No. 1 player when Dustin Brown took him out in straights at Halle.

True.That's why form matters more than the name of a player.You can get any of the BIG 3 in a slam final and he can play bad in that match, likewise you can get a tier 2 player who happens to play outstanding tennis.Just watching at the names in the finals is not enough

 

[NatF]

True.That's why form matters more than the name of a player.You can get any of the BIG 3 in a slam final and he can play bad in that match, likewise you can get a tier 2 player who happens to play outstanding tennis.Just watching at the names in the finals is not enough

Yeah obviously the Big 3 are more likely to play outstanding then not but Djokovic in 2010 and in 2012-2014 was not the same monster as 2011 and 2015, he lost a lot of big slam matches to players like Murray, Wawrinka and even Nishikori in those years. In 2010 in the slam before e.g. Wimbledon, Djokovic had been crushed in straights by Berdych, at Cincy he was straight setted by Roddick arguing he was in near top form at any point in 2010 is just silly...I do think Djokovic in 2010 was good at the USO, but he wasn't a GOAT level opponent by any means coming off a big slump and a five setter the round before.

 

[StrongRule]

On clay their worst surface for the most part so yeah doesn't mean as much as you think.

The only reason why clay is considered Djokovic's "worst surface" is because Nadal stopped him so many times in RG while Federer failed to do the same thing in Wimbledon. Until like 2018 many people thought Djokovic is better on clay than on grass. Anyway, that being Federer's and Djokovic's worst surface doesn't mean that they are absolutely terrible there.

I'm pretty sure you think both Federer and Djokovic deserve full credit when they beat Nadal on hardcourt and grass, and it doesn't even matter what Nadal's form is.

 

[StrongRule]

True.That's why form matters more than the name of a player.You can get any of the BIG 3 in a slam final and he can play bad in that match, likewise you can get a tier 2 player who happens to play outstanding tennis.Just watching at the names in the finals is not enough

This is correct. However for some reason Federer fans still bash Nadal because he didn't face any big names in USO 2019.

 

[NatF]

The only reason why clay is considered Djokovic's "worst surface" is because Nadal stopped him so many times in RG while Federer failed to do the same thing in Wimbledon. Until like 2018 many people believed Djokovic's game is more suited to clay than to grass. Anyway, that being Federer's and Djokovic's worst surface doesn't mean that they are absolutely terrible there.

I'm pretty sure you think both Federer and Djokovic deserve full credit when they beat Nadal on hardcourt and grass, and it doesn't even matter what Nadal's form is.

Pretty sure you don't know what I think on a great many talking points...

Really the way some of you put words in my mouth is quite annoying, who said anything about Federre/Djokovic being absolutely terrible on clay? Irrespective of Nadal, Djokovic is pretty clearly better on grass and than clay. I'm sure if your world revolves around Nadal you can explain away a one versus five title difference but I'm not even going to entertain that...His level on the two surfaces is closer than the 4 title difference would suggest but he's still definitely better on grass. Federer and Djokovic on clay are very good players, the same way Federer's best opponents in 2004-2007 were very good players on HC and grass.

Nadal is better on HC an grass than Federer/Djokovic on clay but it definitely still matters what form Nadal is in e.g. AO 2019. I care about level of play most of all.

 

[ForehandRF]

This is correct. However for some reason Federer fans still bash Nadal because he didn't face any big names in USO 2019.

I know and all that is because Nadal fans always bashed Fed with the 2003-2006 weak era.

 

[RS]

Pretty sure you don't know what I think on a great many talking points...

Really the way some of you put words in my mouth is quite annoying, who said anything about Federre/Djokovic being absolutely terrible on clay? Irrespective of Nadal, Djokovic is pretty clearly better on grass and than clay. I'm sure if your world revolves around Nadal you can explain away a one versus five title difference but I'm not even going to entertain that...His level on the two surfaces is closer than the 4 title difference would suggest but he's still definitely better on grass. Federer and Djokovic on clay are very good players, the same way Federer's best opponents in 2004-2007 were very good players on HC and grass.

Nadal is better on HC an grass than Federer/Djokovic on clay but it definitely still matters what form Nadal is in e.g. AO 2019. I care about level of play most of all.

Even though Djokovic is clearly better on grass than clay overall I would say his best RG 11/RG13/RG16 is close to with his prime Wimbeldon 2011/2014/2018 grass form or a tad worse and only clearly worse 2015 grass form in the finals vs Federer . You can also compare his lesser but still good RGs 2008/2015 to some of his decent/good Wimbeldon campaigns 2012/2013/2019 etc etc. And his average/decent RGs 2012/2014 to his average Wimbeldons 2006/2007 etc etc.

 

[Meles]

Clay:

2007 Nadal: super dominant, routined everyone but the toughest opponents. Dominated MC and Barcelona, bested supercharged Davydenko in epic Rome SF, one loss in Hamburg final when he was fairly tired and Federer was zoning like mad, but responded with a brilliant RG capped off with a massively clutch performance against peak Federer in the final.

2011 Nadal: dropped a 2-6 set to Murray in MC (Rafa's best haven in BO3, wot ze hell?), dropped TB sets to Lorenzi in Rome and two to Isner at RG, struggled with past-prime Fedr more than with peak one in 07, oh and of course he lost twice to Djokovic but that's not even the main problem as I showed.

Grass:

2007 Nadal: struggled early on but found peak form in 4R/QF and gave still near-peak Fedr a great scare in the final, could've won if a few points went his way.

2011 Nadal: struggled less en route but completely fudged it up mentally in the final, 1/6 BP saved with a breadstick lolwot is this. Novak was good but with his dropping sets to Baghdatis and Tomic he certainly wasn't on the level of 07 Grasserer.

Hard:
aha, this one is the closest obviously but even there 07dal's superiority shines through:

2007 Nadal:

beat a solid Murray at AO then lost to supercharged Gonzo (same shyt happened in 08 vs Tsonga, it is ok), put up a masterful peak display in IW (didn't drop a set, broken only 3 times in 6 matches, umbilleevel), was strong in Miami and Canada losing to eventual champ Djokovic.

Was sick in Cincy (retired) and had his usual knee thing at the USO, outlasted by Ferrer, so those are excused. Back to strong for his standards (considering indoor weakness) in Madrid and Paris - got destroyed by eventual champ Nalbandian both times, but at least he made it that far.

Made YEC SF, lost to goating Fedr (could've played better but Fed was in unbreakable bot mode anyway, 80% 1st serve you kidding me)

2011 Nadal:

pulled hamstring, lost easily to Ferrer at the AO. Had the draw of gods at IW (no top 80 players xD) and started well vs Djo but then forgot how to hit 1st serve (ridiculous for someone serving as safely as nads) and got pwned badly - worse than 07. Played extremely well in Miami losing serve just once before F, gave his all vs BOATOV1C losing in 3rd set TB - better than 07. So far so good when healthy.

But then disgustery erupts: epic choke to Dodig (huh?) in Canada, destroyed himself in self-imposed epic vs Verdaco in Cincy and lost easily to Fish, made USO final looking ok but got pwned badly and had to engage 9000% mode to sneak a set, destroyed in Tokyo final by Murray (last two sets), botty loss to Mayer in Shanghai, destroyed by Fedr in YEC RR (lost RR 1-2 record).

Basically 11 Nadal only looks better cause of the USO, but it wasn't great given the pwnage (and that selfsame PEAKOV1C just barely escaped old bones in SF). Other than that, he sux'd pretty sad for his standards post-Wimbledon despite playing healthy, whereas 2007 Nadal maintained composure throughout the entire season except Cincy-USO when he was traditionally injured so it doesn't count.

The hard courts you make a strong case and a surprising one for me. Let's go to the points stats:
2007 52.6% points won on hard courts versus 2011 hard court points won 53.5%

Looking at the tournaments I'll take Nadal causing trouble for Djokovic2011 in IW and Miami Finals plus US Open all day long over beating baby Djokovic in 2007 on his maiden breakout into a decidedly weak field. Not even close on hard courts.

 

[Meles]

I wouldn't say clearly better. Nadal-Djokovic match in Miami 2011 was closer than in 2007, but I think in 2007 there was very high quality. An underrated match by the way.

Djokovic had his first huge stats breakout entering the 2007 Sunshine swing so he was no joke right then, but overall not loving the 2007 field right on the heels of 2006 with Fed losing to Canas thing to boot. Still exciting. I'll buy Nadal 2007 better overall than 2011, but not on hard courts.

 

[Meles]

He was prime, but not peak. Credit to Djokovic for being in great form all year, but no matter the reason, a fact remains a fact-Nadal never played close to his peak level in 2011, at least after Miami.

It's just like Federer in 2008-he was at his prime, but not peak level.

Prime Mono in 2008?

 

[ForehandRF]

Prime Mono in 2008?

I was hoping that you won't move the discussion onto that territory

 

[Meles]

I was hoping that you won't move the discussion onto that territory

Its one of my pet things as I'm getting tired of being told he won slam earlier when it was gifted to him via early Fed mono which started in early December. Also undermines Nadal 2008 Wimby. Mono is a beautiful thing.

 

[NatF]

Even though Djokovic is clearly better on grass than clay overall I would say his best RG 11/RG13/RG16 is close to with his prime Wimbeldon 2011/2014/2018 grass form and only clearly worse than his 2014-2015 grass form in the finals vs Federer . You can also compare his lesser but still good RGs 2008/2015 to some of his dgood Wimbeldon campaigns 2012/2013/2019 etc etc. And his average/decent RGs 2012/2014 to his average Wimbeldons 2006/2007 etc etc.

Yeah I think that's fair. Djokovic has probably under preformed at the FO in big matches somewhat.

 

[RS]

Yeah I think that's fair. Djokovic has probably under preformed at the FO in big matches somewhat.

Yeah with his consistency he could have got one more title. He most likely would have if he got past Nadal in RG2013.

 

[NatF]

Yeah with his consistency he could have got one more title. He most likely would have if he got past Nadal in RG2013.

That 2013 match was really up and down, it was basically Djokovic raising his game at key moments to not lose the match but playing quite badly at times either side of it. The fifth set was excellent though.

 

[ForehandRF]

Fed could have won another title too given his excellent clay play.2006 & 2011, wasted opportunities.

 

[Sabrina]

Fed could have won another title too given his excellent clay play.2006 & 2011, wasted opportunities.

I think 2007 was Federer best RG in term of level. Nadal was just playing too well that day, nothing Fed can do. Nadal also could have won another Wimbledon too, 2007 & 2018, he should have added least 1 of these 2 IMO.

 

[ForehandRF]

I think 2007 was Federer best RG in term of level. Nadal was just playing too well that day, nothing Fed can do. Nadal also could have won another Wimbledon too, 2007 & 2018, he should have added least 1 of these 2 IMO.

Fed could have been more clutch in that 2007 match but yeah, I think he would have failed to win had the match gone to the 5th.His best level ? You could be right.I have to rewatch the highlights on 2006&2007 matches.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

I think 2007 was Federer best RG in term of level. Nadal was just playing too well that day, nothing Fed can do. Nadal also could have won another Wimbledon too, 2007 & 2018, he should have added least 1 of these 2 IMO.

Nadal never choked a big slam match like Federer and even Djokovic did. *shrugs*

 

[ForehandRF]

Nadal never choked a big slam match like Federer and even Djokovic did. *shrugs*

AO 2012 ?

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

AO 2012 ?

One error isn't a choke unless it's a bad miss on BP. Check out that game, Djokovic hit three cool backhands to win the other points to break.

Simply put, the close slam matches Nadal lost - Wimbledon 07, AO 12, AO 17, Wimbledon 18 - were ultimately down to Fed/Djok's strong play in the end than Nadal giving anything away, of course he wasn't perfect but didn't drop his balls like Federer AO/USO 09 or Djokovic AO/USO 14, for example. His worst mental performance was actually Wimbledon 11, but Djokovic was a strong favourite by then so not a big chance lost. Overall, Nadal's strongest choke is 2017 Wimbledon against Müller, was consistently the better player after the first set.

 

[Sabrina]

One error isn't a choke unless it's a bad miss on BP. Check out that game, Djokovic hit three cool backhands to win the other points to break.

Simply put, the close slam matches Nadal lost - Wimbledon 07, AO 12, AO 17, Wimbledon 18 - were ultimately down to Fed/Djok's strong play in the end than Nadal giving anything away, of course he wasn't perfect but didn't drop his balls like Federer AO/USO 09 or Djokovic AO/USO 14, for example. His worst mental performance was actually Wimbledon 11, but Djokovic was a strong favourite by then so not a big chance lost. Overall, Nadal's strongest choke is 2017 Wimbledon against Müller, was consistently the better player after the first set.

Well Nadal was not winning Wimbledon 2017 anyways so it's not a big deal for me. Same as US 15, US 16 or AO 16.

 

[RS]

That 2013 match was really up and down, it was basically Djokovic raising his game at key moments to not lose the match but playing quite badly at times either side of it. The fifth set was excellent though.

Djokovic had 3 good/above decent sets and one amazing set until the end and one really bad set. The last set is among the best Nadal has ever played he ripped like 22 winners.

 

[NatF]

Djokovic had 3 good/above decent sets and one amazing set until the end and one really bad set. The last set is among the best Nadal has ever played he ripped like 22 winners.

I would not call set one good or even above decent. Djokovic had about a sets worth of poor games from midway in the first to midway in the second, he was also terrible in set 3. He basically always had to come from behind because of this. Nadal was in beast mode that last set but 22 winners in 16 games isn't that much - according to TA Djokovic hit 19 in 13 in the 4th set.

 

[RS]

I would not call set one good or even above decent. Djokovic had about a sets worth of poor games from midway in the first to midway in the second, he was also terrible in set 3. He basically always had to come from behind because of this. Nadal was in beast mode that last set but 22 winners in 16 games isn't that much - according to TA Djokovic hit 19 in 13 in the 4th set.

I recall Djokovic playing well in set 2 with some shakiness earlier on in the set and that set being Nadal's worst in the match and i recall the 1st set being competitive with some sloppy games by Djokovic i think to get broken? Nadal should have closed the 4th out but Djokovic did well to clutch it out. I would say Djokovic had better performances in Rome and Madrid 2009 and a few at RG but still among his best on clay IMO.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Djokovic at the end of 2010 was still being owned by Fedal, (lost to Federer three straight times) I guess beating Berdych, Monfils and Simon in Davis Cup equals 2011 level to you In 2013 Djokovic played a subpar match, look at the stats and the run of play.

Stuff like "but but he won Davis Cup" and "but but he was number one" don't say anything about his play on the day which is what I'm referring to.

I can see where you are coming from in 2010, probably not quite the beast he was the following year, and yeah not at his very best in 2013, but he's still Djokovic and even slightly off his game was still a handful for Rafa and anyone else on tour.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

I don't think listing his achievements from other, separate tournaments helps support the arguments that he played well in either final. Federer was also ranked No. 1 when he played one of the worst matches of his career against Volandri in Rome 2007. Likewise, Nadal was also the No. 1 player when Dustin Brown took him out in straights at Halle.

What do you want Rafa to do though? Do you want Rafa to replay the finals when Djokovic feels like showing up at his best? Rafa showed up and beat the world number one Novak Djokovic on hard courts in 2013 - that is a notch in anyone's belt.