Gilles Simon on equal prize money

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by nissrro, Jun 27, 2012.

  1. Frying Pan Forehand

    Frying Pan Forehand Rookie

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    Because of the ipocrisy , it's clear that the women are payed more than what they entertain, but yeah you all act like thats okay, it's the ipocrisy of the western society in general(just like minorities get sometimes more rights that the rightful citizents, which is bad)
     
    #51
  2. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Where were you and this 'fairness' argument in the late 90's early 2000's when the women's game was more popular than the men's game yet the women were paid less than the men :twisted:

    Whats good for the goose is good for the gander!
     
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  3. Lefty78

    Lefty78 Professional

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    Socialism is a sickness of the soul. You should really seek treatment.
     
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  4. WhiskeyEE

    WhiskeyEE Legend

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    I don't 100% support capitalism either. But this is tennis. It's entertainment. Entertainers should be paid based on how valuable they are.

    By your logic, Hollywood actors should all be paid the same. I mean isn't Brad Pitt being paid more than Paul Giamatti discrimination?
     
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  5. scotus

    scotus Legend

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    Are you serious? No, that does not follow. It only means that certain events offer more financial incentives to the players than other events.


    The problem with equal pay is as follows:

    The proponents of equal pay based on gender are crying injustice when it comes to pay but is not at all addressing the other side of equation: product value and the discrepancy in workload.
     
    #55
  6. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    What you really mean is survival of the legacy inheritors :twisted:

    Either by that of race, gender, social and economic position, etc...

    If everyone started at the same place; then you and your conservative cohorts might have more of a point. However, given reality you come across as naive at best!
     
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  7. WhiskeyEE

    WhiskeyEE Legend

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    If that's true, women should've been paid more.
     
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  8. Frying Pan Forehand

    Frying Pan Forehand Rookie

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    We are not born equal so yeah, survival of the luckiest sometimes.
     
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  9. tank_job

    tank_job Banned

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    Just see how many turn up to watch them play and pay 'em that way.

    If women's matches last only one set, but get 5 billion views, they can get away with playing shorter matches, so pay them accordingly.

    There are no such things as 'deserve' and 'entitled' in this world.
     
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  10. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Look, I'm not going to go deeper into this politics on here, because it isn't the place, but I've made my point. The genders should have equal prize money and best of 5 sets in the majors. That would be true equality in tennis.
     
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  11. scotus

    scotus Legend

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    Are you serious? No, that does not follow. It only means that certain events offer more financial incentives to the players than other events.


    The problem with equal pay is as follows:

    The proponents of equal pay based on gender are crying injustice when it comes to pay but is not at all addressing the other side of equation: product value and the discrepancy in workload.

    That is essentially Simon's argument.
     
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  12. Joseph L. Barrow

    Joseph L. Barrow Professional

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    Yes; a substantial number of people seem to believe that certain tennis players who play at a lower level and generate less revenue are entitled to be paid as much as those who play better and generate more revenue, because the former are female. This is a distinctly sexist position.
     
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  13. WhiskeyEE

    WhiskeyEE Legend

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    No. True equality would be being paid an equal proportion of the profits you generate.
     
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  14. DeShaun

    DeShaun Banned

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    The comment by Sloane Stephens is priceless and unadulterated. She could campaign successfully for a spot of her won on the WTA players council with such unequivocal position-taking.
     
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  15. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    I'm amazed you actually admitted that...

    I've wasted many a breathe trying to get my conservative friends to say the same.

    However, I believe we all are pretty much born equal just not under equal circumstances...
     
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  16. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    I mean that it would be equality between the genders within tennis as far as prize money and format goes. As far as wider society is concerned, capitalism means inequality. Workers produce all real wealth, by making, distributing and selling all the commodities of society. They only have a tiny fraction of the actual money in their bank accounts, though. The overwhelming majority of the money is banked by the boss class.
     
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  17. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    Has there ever been a year when the ratings for the women's final was higher than the ratings for the men's final?

    Ratings can be tough to find. I know last year the Men's final got a 2.6 Rating while the women's got a 1.7.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
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  18. Semi-Pro

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    Mustard I understand you are a socialist but there is no way in hell women should get the same amount of prize money as men do,,,
     
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  19. WhiskeyEE

    WhiskeyEE Legend

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    I just don't think that equal pay has any relevance in entertainment. And I consider myself a borderline socialist. It just doesn't work.

    Is it fair to WTA officials to have a smaller % of profits compared to ATP officials? Because that's exactly what happens when WTA and ATP players are paid the same.

    What if the WTA plummets so much in popularity that the tournament directors have to give all of their revenue away just to match the ATPs prize money?

    You can't have equal pay without equal circumstances. Otherwise, you're just creating a different inequality.

    Yeah, players should probably be paid a larger portion of tournament revenues, but that's besides my point.
     
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  20. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Yes there has...


    Just google it and you will see it happened quite often in the time span I said (Late 90's early 2000's)...
     
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  21. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    That's wrong too. Big business refuses to take the hit for being forced into equal prize money for female players, so pass the losses on to WTA officials. Divide and rule, I believe it's called.

    The WTA could only "plummet" because of the laws of the market, i.e. the law of the jungle. Tennis is a sport.

    That's what exists right now with women playing best of 3 sets in majors while the men play best of 5 sets in major. The proposals I mentioned would create equal circumstances and equal prize money for all tennis players on the tour, regardless of gender.

    No, that is the point. Big business refuses to take a loss in its profits by paying greater percentages to the players. And if they are forced to do that under pressure, they pass on the losses to some other employees, or axe jobs altogether. That's capitalist logic.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
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  22. CDestroyer

    CDestroyer Professional

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    They can give the women the same money just don't make them ever play 5 sets. 3 sets is hard enough to watch without losing interest.

    Maybe they can switch to best of 1 set like the senior tour.:smile:
     
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  23. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Wow. Stosur sounds like a moron.
     
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  24. WhiskeyEE

    WhiskeyEE Legend

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    By giving WTA players an equal proportion of profits, they actually would be taking a cut. The "big business" WTA officials would not be making as much as ATP officials, for example. They would making a percentage of profits, just as the players would be.
     
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  25. krz

    krz Professional

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    I'll take it one step further.

    Correct, we are not born under equal circumstances. Some are rich, some have crappy parents.

    Additionally, we are not born equal. Not everybody is born with the same intelligence, athletic ability etc.

    Neither of those stops anybody from becoming successful. I could go into a personal anecdote but, I won't.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
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  26. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Say there's a ladder, with loads of people trying to climb up it at the same time, and getting up the top means you will be a huge success in life. The billionaires start right up the top of the ladder and can get to the top easily, while the masses start in the big crowd at the bottom and will struggle to even get on the ladder, let alone reach the top, apart from the very rare exception.

    There's no equality of opportunity without equality of wealth.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
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  27. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    Five set women's matches would not survive a constitutional challenge. Clearly, they would be considered torture and cruel or unusual punishment.:)

    If the WTA thought for a second that the ATP was getting the better end of the bargain, they would be biatching a fit 24/7/365. Notice that has not occurred.
     
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  28. Frying Pan Forehand

    Frying Pan Forehand Rookie

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    Maybe many of the billionaires got there because they made something (Google, Microsoft/ Facebook) stop complaining for your lack of ability. All of them got there because they or their parents done something, so someone deserved all that wealth, stop complaining and work you but off and become great.
     
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  29. gavna

    gavna Hall of Fame

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    Well we tried that a few years ago in the 80s with the women playing 5 sets.......utter utter disaster. With only some of the women worth watching 2 out of 3 is bad but 3 out of 5 is painful!!!!!
     
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  30. Joseph L. Barrow

    Joseph L. Barrow Professional

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    And ironically, the WTA officials probably do their job just as well as the ATP officials do; it is the ATP players whose work (see: quantity, quality, and revenue generated) is superior, generating the discrepancy in revenue between the organizations, and thus merits greater prize money.
     
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  31. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    And who works to make these creations a reality? Who distributes these commodities to the shops? Who sells these commodities in the shops? Are they extremely rich as well? Thought not.
     
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  32. Frying Pan Forehand

    Frying Pan Forehand Rookie

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    Who unites all the people togheter and keeps everything working? People skills are the most rare and the most appreciated skills( because people are the hardest thing to master)?
     
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  33. krz

    krz Professional

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    I completely agree.

    Sucks but, life isn't fair. The guy at the bottom has to work harder to reach success. But, nothing is stopping said guy from working harder than the next. Ask me how I know.

    The market pays you what you're worth. I'm sorry the warehouse worker works his ass off for $15/hour. Reality is billions of people and well trained chimps can perform that job function. Significantly less people are qualified to be said companies CEO. Even less people had the vision and drive to create those companies.

    You want it? You gotta earn it, you're not entitled to jack. But alas, that is where we are fundamentally different and no amount of debating will change this.
     
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  34. krz

    krz Professional

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    Then they can start their own company with their own idea.
     
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  35. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    I'm sorry to break it to you, but circumstances can certainly stop, or at the very least strongly inhibit, one from becoming 'successful'...

    Whatever successful means...

    Try being born a slave in colonial America, or a Jew in Hitler's Europe, or a woman in a sharia state, etc-etc and see how 'successful' you become!

    And of course there are anecdotal examples of those who become incredibly wealthy or powerful under difficult circumstances, but those are certainly exceptions and not the rule!
     
    #85
  36. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Yet some of these CEOs drive their companies into the ground yet still 'earn' millions :twisted:

    And it is the consumer and citizen that creates the 'market'; at least when they are empowered and informed.

    The 'market' should not be used as an excuse to propagate a corrupt status quo; otherwise there will be no positive change and eventually Marx's theory will come true -- an under-appreciated underclass will rise up and create chaos and we all will suffer...
     
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  37. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    this dicussion is pretty funny.

    and for all the "interest" in this topic, id bet that not one person could be troubled to intelligently read anything on the subject.

    still, when people freely disclose their prejudices, it really tells a lot about the person making the arguments.
     
    #87
  38. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Exactly this.

    Whether women play 3 sets vs 5 for men is irrelevant; how hard they work is irrelevant; in fact even how well they play (as a direct metric) is irrelevant.

    Sports is just entertainment. The value of any kind of entertainment is determined completely by how many people want to watch it and how much they are prepared to pay for this (either directly via attenting an event, or indirectly, by demanding that TV shows it).

    I have no idea how much revenue and viewership the WTA generates vs the ATP. But whatever it is, that's what should dictate pay, whether it's more or less.
     
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  39. krz

    krz Professional

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    Good thing this is America 2012. Keep blaming "the man" for holding you down in life. Wish you luck.

    We are fundamentally different. I know, blah blah blah I only care about my own interest and not helping others. blah blah blah

    #OccupyWallStreet
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
    #89
  40. scotus

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    I can agree with this. If the powers that be decide to let the market decide the pay, that's fine by me. In this case, there is no basis for "equal pay." Everything is decided on revenue generated, sometimes the men will earn higher pay, sometimes women. No problem there.

    However, 3 vs 5 is not irrelevant if a party involved is insisting on equality and justice of compensation.

    In most work places, the argument has been about "equal pay for equal work."

    In tennis, however, they only want "equal pay" and throw out "equal work."
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
    #90
  41. Bhagi Katbamna

    Bhagi Katbamna Hall of Fame

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    See, Simon doesn't understand the Dogbert rules of discrimination: while it is not OK to discriminate based on gender, skin color, and sexual orientation, it is OK to discriminate based on weight and attractiveness.
    Therefore, Simon should believe in equal prizemoney for attractive women. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
    #91
  42. Loose Cannon

    Loose Cannon Rookie

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    If I didnt know any better I would have thought I typed this.........


    Drives me nuts with their demands of equality....

    What in the world are they equal' at?????
     
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  43. sillymonkey

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    This story was on my local news this morning. So unusual.
     
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  44. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    As I suspected, this guy is a jerk. I think we have a Justin Gimelstob in the making. Suddenly becoming an equal rights advocate always makes me suspicious of underlying psychological issues.

    http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=18414&zoneid=25

    American teenager Sloane Stephens reacted differently, saying she does not care what Simon says because he was mean to her when she was a kid at the Sunrise Challenger in Florida.

    "He hit me with a ball when I was ball kid for the first time. He hit me right in my chest because he lost a point and set he turned around and slammed the ball and it hit me," Stephens told a small group of U.S. reporters. "Whatever he says, that means nothing to me. We had discussion about it on the court last year because he was trying to kick me off the practice court in Estoril and I'm like dude you don't have this court. His coach was nice and he asked me, 'Why don't you like him?' and I said because when I was 10 he hit me with the ball and he didn't even say sorry and kind of walked off. So I was like, 'I don't like him."
     
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  45. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    I don't understand why Simon, or anyone else cares. I mean, if they didn't have equal pay, it's not like they would take the difference in pay and add it to the men's total purse. It would go back to the tournament for other things. Who does it benefit by paying the women less? It's not like the men play best of 5 all year (just the 4 majors, Davis Cup, and one match at the Olympics every four years). Despite how many people feel on tennis discussion forums, people do come to watch women's tennis as well.

    So, they play best of 5, but I mean Federer was out there for 1:15 today? There were many women's matches that were quite a bit longer, and a couple of them were very entertaining matches. I just don't see why the "never ending debate" should continue.
     
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  46. okdude1992

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    oh em gee another one of these threads what a surprise.

    please. no best of 5 for women, many of them are woefully out of shape and the best of 3 is tough enough to sit through

    men should be payed more because of economics, NOT because the quality is better (which it obviously is) or that they do more work (again obvious). more interest in mens tennis=more revenue=more prize money. the woman's slams and combined events should not be subsidized.
     
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  47. okdude1992

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    bingo (10 chars) i don't understand why all these other issues are being brought up constantly. they just muddy the situation
     
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  48. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Then they should get in shape. These are the biggest prizes in tennis and they should be the hardest tournaments to win. There is no excuse for different standards in terms of the format and prize money of the men's and women's game.
     
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  49. mistik

    mistik Hall of Fame

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    Tennis was probably only sport that at times public interest was more towards women.Now women is tennis weak.Men tennis with the likes Fed, Rafa and Djoko is in a very strong position,but ıt wont continue like that forever there can be great tennis players in the future like Navratilova Graf and Seles and it can be fun again.
    At this weak WTA time ı am not sure they deserve equal money because ı have yet to see someone around me who wants to fallow WTA.İt wasnt like that 5 or 6 years ago when players like Hingis,Henin,Mauresmo is around.
    I think the problem is lack of interest towards WTA now not thay women play best 3 men play best 5.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
    #99
  50. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    And the money...
     

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