Give up on PD ?

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by bluegrasser, Apr 30, 2007.

  1. bluegrasser

    bluegrasser Hall of Fame

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    I've tried every string combo and i still hit the ball out, I find I get more pop(serve) on a stick like a N/or K 6.1, but it's heavier and that's supposed to be for the young pups. I thought the PD would help me in the power dept, more winners etc., but with an eastern grip and only moderate topspin, I can't seem to make the adjustment. any suggestions on new sticks to try ?
    Do you think 12.3 oz,sw 340 is too heavy for this middle ager, I do have a long swing on the forehand side..
     
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  2. kingdaddy41788

    kingdaddy41788 Hall of Fame

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    The PD sounds like it just isn't for you. If you're still hitting it out, I'd move on to another stick.
     
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  3. megaforcetkd

    megaforcetkd Rookie

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    That might be your problem. I've read that these Babolats really need the topspin to keep the ball in - don't take my my word as gold though, because I've never used one :).
     
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  4. z-money

    z-money Semi-Pro

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    with that swing weight and weight of racket. i think u mean LM Prestige? It has ok power for a player frame. but it wont give you any more juice on the serve than your pd. if you need to you can add some lead to thd pd that may solve your problem. but the LM is much more flexible dont know if you want to go from stiff to flexi like that.
     
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  5. z-money

    z-money Semi-Pro

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    i agree to weild those rackets at their best you need a semi western at least. so that you can make topspin.
     
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  6. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

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    bluegrasser,

    I'm already there. After 3 months I'm putting the PD aside and going to something with more flex. While it did give me excellent results on serve, volleys and slice approach it took away from what I do well with my groundstrokes - spin, placement, angles and touch. I did try to tell myself that the groundstrokes would eventually fall in to place, but they never did. My grips are similar to yours and I struggled to generate enough top while using the PD. However, when I picked up my TT Warrior, an nBlade, t10mp VE or 03 Tour MP I was able to spin the ball with no difficulty whatsoever. The big difference, I believe, is that the PD just doesn't have good enough dwell time for my style of game. Perhaps it's something similar with you.

    If you'd like to continue with something close to the PD, I would recommend the APD. It has a lot of power, although not as much as the PD, and is a far more spin friendly racquet than the PD.

    Another one to try would be the Volkl V1 Classic MP. Stiffer but comfortable and it does have an excellent reputation.

    One other suggestion. I'm thinking now that, when I was looking for a bit more power, I should have considered an oversize with flex. That way I would have increased power levels but still retained the feel I need for my game style. That could be a worthwhile option for you as well.
     
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  7. PED

    PED Legend

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    I think a semi western is a must for the PD. I'm in the process of adapting from eastern to semi and it makes all the difference on the PD. When you get it right however, you can rain in the winners and the pd feels great. I would advise you to give the SW grip a try at least. The PD seems to respond well to hybrid strings as well which softens up the stiffness a bit. I like hurricane tour and sensation in mine. I think Andrew D is right about the Aero. That is a sweet racquet and I have a much easier time spinning it than the pd. I think you are ok on the 12.3 oz stick. My o3 tour weighs in at 12.3 and it was just a matter of adapting to it. (I'm 42)
     
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  8. bluegrasser

    bluegrasser Hall of Fame

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    I'm done with SS racquets - I picked up a new team 6.1 to try, and i'll try the new 03 tour when it comes out next month, it's supposed to have a little more weigh and pop than the original. Thanks for the suggestions - everyone
     
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  9. Attila the tennis Bum

    Attila the tennis Bum Banned

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    why not just string it tighter?
     
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  10. movdqa

    movdqa Legend

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    Popular route to arm problems.
     
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  11. Micky

    Micky Semi-Pro

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    Hola PED,

    I have four friends in their 40's that have gone to the PD and have adjusted their Eastern grip to SW. The guys were talented enough to make the switch in less than 10 minutes. I am sure bluegrasser can go from his neutral stance to open stance and get his new SW grip to spin those balls in orgasmic levels. ;)
     
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  12. KingOfTennis

    KingOfTennis Professional

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    why not get the K90 X or Lite
     
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  13. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

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    bluegrasser,

    Don't forget to give the nBlade a try. It's very different to their usual fare - more flex, no pws and much better feel (closer to a Prestige than any Wilson I've hit with). Comfort is excellent, felt like it had a large sweetspot, good flex but a solid feel that belies the flex rating (similar to a Prestige or the old Max200G), not as flexy in the upper hoop like a t10mpGen2 or PS95 which gives you a bit more power, not overly head light but the lower static weight makes that managable, excellent feel/touch and the overall performance is excellent. Probably a low tension racquet and it would really shine with natural gut.

    I loved what I could do with the 03 Tour MP and Prince is always my first preference (Im most comfortable with their grip shape and head shape) but the nBlade has given me another option. Im not sure about the power levels as the nBlade was strung at a lower tension but I think it has more pop than the 03 Tour MP, although not as much spin (even though the spin levels were very good). For an old-school Eastern player, I think it might be a better option than the Prince. I'll be leaning to the 03 but mainly because I loved the response on groundstrokes (could rally all day with that one), even if my slice has been better with other frames. Nat. gut or a nat.gut hybrid would be a good choice. You'd lose a bit of control but I think the power boost would be worth it (and it would feel like managable power).

    Perhaps the Fischer Magnetic Pro would be worth trying as well. At least, it couldn't hurt.

    ?? I didn't know there was a new 03 Tour coming out. Is that merely another 03 racquet or is it actually an 03 Tour update?
     
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  14. a guy

    a guy Banned

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    Stick with the RDS 003 and add some lead to the head.
     
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  15. kreative

    kreative Professional

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    try the pure storm or o3 white.
     
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  16. bluegrasser

    bluegrasser Hall of Fame

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    Hit with both - liked the 'Storm' better, but not enough for a change. Have a match today ( if weather holds out) and will give the 6.1 team a shot.
     
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  17. bluegrasser

    bluegrasser Hall of Fame

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    Andrew:
    The new 03 Tour ( gold in color ) is supposed to come out by the time the FOpen starts, the beam is a little thicker i'm told + it's heavier. This info was given to me by a Pro sponsored by ' Prince.
     
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  18. nickb

    nickb Banned

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    Have you tried out the pure storm and pure control...they are both better for players with less extreme grips imo..one of the flattest players I have ever seen uses the pure control to great affect.
     
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  19. Attila the tennis Bum

    Attila the tennis Bum Banned

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    Then why do you string at 62?
     
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  20. movdqa

    movdqa Legend

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    The Redondo has a flex rating of 56 and I'm using a very resiliant string so it has that buttery soft feeling, even at 62 pounds. Besides that was the midrange of the recommended stringing range.

    The Dunlop weighs 16.4 ounces and, as you might imagine, doesn't have a lot of shock and vibration issues.
     
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  21. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    If you could get your hands on one>> I would recommend the Dunlop 300g.
     
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  22. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

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    Will that be completely replacing the original 03 Tour and is it in the Midplus size?

    I've always enjoyed the 03 Tour MP but it is a bit pricey right now (over $300Aus). If a new version is coming out that might mean the old one goes on discount and I can seriously consider it.

    Oh, and bluegrasser, I was wondering what your racquet history is. Given that we have similarities in playing style it might be helpful to know what you have used and rejected.
     
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  23. bluegrasser

    bluegrasser Hall of Fame

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    I think the original will stay - racquet history ! geesh ! there's not enough ink in this computer:) My friend owns a tennis shop, so I'm always tring new sticks. I do love feel control racquets the best, some of my fav's have been 300g, fxp Prestige, Prince diablo ( old version ) mp, surprisingly the original 03 red, in my younger yrs ( 20's to early thirties ) my favorite stick was the ps 85, which I played with for quite some time.

    Team 6.1 review _ Very soft control frame, Prestige like, stable due to even balance, good pop and control, great on the volley/groundies, the only area lacking was the serve, had to swing real hard to get good pop. This is a players stick for long fast strokes & I really liked this frame.
     
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  24. Thomas Bird-Itch

    Thomas Bird-Itch Semi-Pro

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    I wouldn't try changing your technique just to suit one racquet. There are so many that you're sure to find something that works. The AD is also very stiff (69 according to Tennis.com), so that may not help you keep balls in the court. Good luck!
     
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  25. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

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    Tape a quarter to the bottom of the buttcap (or add some lead tape there). It will take away power and add spin, and it will make the impact feel softer. The more mass you add to the butt, the greater the effect. Weight distribution matters more than string type.
     
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  26. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

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    I didn't know there was an old version of the Prince Diablo. What has changed between it and the currently available one ?
     
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  27. goosala

    goosala Hall of Fame

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    I understand you. I can not hit inside the lines with that frame.
     
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  28. Attila the tennis Bum

    Attila the tennis Bum Banned

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    Did you try using all polyester rather than a combo?
     
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  29. calvinchang

    calvinchang Rookie

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    I believe as long as you can keep enough topspin to bring the ball down it doesn't matter what grip you use. For a while I was struggling with getting high balls because I just couldn't get enough topspin on them but now I can. But damn, this racquet kills my arm.
     
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  30. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

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    That is correct. I (and many other people) can use a Continental or Eastern grip and get more than enough topspin. My problem was that I couldn't feel the ball when trying to spin it. That doesn't matter to a lot of people (probably most people) but, as a touch player, I don't rely on just a massive swipe at the ball to generate spin. The ball just didn't stay on the strings long enough (although I will say it was considerably better than most other racquets of equal stiffness).
     
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  31. Nastase

    Nastase Rookie

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    i forget...what did you not like about the FXP Prestige MP...why not go back to that. Comfy, decent power...
     
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  32. Attila the tennis Bum

    Attila the tennis Bum Banned

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    How the hell do you get topspin with a continental grip??? I don't even think John Mcenroe was able to do that.
     
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  33. movdqa

    movdqa Legend

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    Ever hear of a guy named Rod Laver?
     
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  34. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

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    Yep, Rod Laver and Ilie Nastase were able to generate heavy topspin using a Continental grip. In recent years I've seen Roy Emerson, Mal Anderson (old time Aussie - won the US Open) and Ashley Cooper (another old Aussie - won 3 of 4 majors) generate huge topspin using grips that were somewhere between Continental and Eastern. In essence, it's not the grip you use, it's the rip you give the ball. Sure, the semi-western and western make it easier to generate heavy top but they aren't the only ways and both have very severe limitations - moreso as you get older.
     
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  35. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    lots of the old guys like me and and andrew ;) <andrew isnt old...just old school i think> can gets loads of top using a continental, but i think that style is more subject to UE's....my grips are usually stronger now when i want top, but we learned to hit everything with wood and the continental including topspin lobs. the technique isnt modern though and i think the continental coupled with the small headed frames was the big reason why the UE's were MUCH greater back in the old days..even the great Rocket could have a boatload of UE's in a match (and still win)
     
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  36. movdqa

    movdqa Legend

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    I started out with a continental and did hit whippy topspin forehands but I think what was a lot of topspin isn't much compared to what's routinely hit today.

    I made the switch to an eastern forehand late teens and am starting to edge over to the next bevel from time to time.
     
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  37. ndtennis

    ndtennis Rookie

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    Hey if ur trying to get more pop to your serve i would 2nd that recomendation of the Fischer M Pro #1. I felt a differnece serving it. It really helps my serve. I read that it improved Baghdatis' serve 10 mph!
     
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  38. Attila the tennis Bum

    Attila the tennis Bum Banned

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    Laver and Nastase did not use a continental grip to hit topspin. Sorry guys!

    Its virtually impossible. With a continental grip the racquet face is slanted upwards towards the sky. The exact opposite of what you need for topspin.
     
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  39. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

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    Yes, and the unforced errors can also be high today if you have a fast swing, a grip close to Eastern, are going for heavy spin and use a 90sq head size. I know people just flat out refuse to accept that Federer frames a lot of shots due to the size of his racquet but it is simply the law of averages coming in to play. If you swing as quickly as he does, the way he does (having to force the racquet face to close) and don't have more extreme semi-western or western grips then you are going to frame more shots than the average player. That is the reason why Guillermo Vilas, Harold Solomon, Bjorn Borg and, way back in the 20's, Little Bill Johnston were able to hit such extreme topspin with a wooden racquet but not have as many mishits/frame shots as Laver - they all used semi-western or Western grips (Borg was the only one who would be called 'wristy'). Other players in the wood era didn't have as many mis-hits because they either didn't swing as fast as Laver and/or they had a more managable swing path. Tom Okker was one exception and might well have had a faster swing than Laver (his basic stroke wasn't as sound or damaging), although the most notable was Lew Hoad (continental on everything, heavy top but driven, not loopy) and it accounts for his, occasionally, patchy form.

    Actually, that gives you an idea of how much talent Laver, Hoad, Federer Okker and Nastase had/have (Nastase's swing was quick but nowhere near as fast as the others). To be able to hit the ball the way they do/did (heavy spin, not merely 'whippy') when you're using a less efficient method (grip) is testament to their skill. I recall someone saying that players at their club had the talent to switch, in ten minutes (?), to a semi-western grip. That isn't real talent. A sign of genuine skill and ball striking ability is to switch over to a Continental grip and start hitting heavy topspin.


    I think you owe us all an apology, although, instead of apologising I'd be happier if you learned 1) what a Continental grip really is and 2) a bit about Laver and Nastase

    http://www.steveflink.com/great.html
    About half way down the page, Laver mentions his grip - the Continental (not that it isn't widely reported in numerous books and articles - checking before you tell people they're wrong is the intelligent thing to do).
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2007
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  40. movdqa

    movdqa Legend

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    You just rotate your wrist so that the racquet face doesn't open upwards. Your wrist can rotate about 180 degrees. Your wrist and arm together can rotate about 270 degrees. If you're using a semiwestern or a western, try rotating your wrist to get the racquet face to open towards the sky. People with semiwestern grips can hit slice forehands.
     
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  41. Attila the tennis Bum

    Attila the tennis Bum Banned

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    Actually I think it is you who owes me an apology for not only being wrong and having poor reading comprehension but most importantly for simply being rude for no apparent reason.

    Secondly I know that Nastase and Laver used a continental. When did I say anything different????

    What I said was that I do not think they hit topspin with a continental grip!! Yes they used a continental grip but they did not hit topspin with that grip...they hit slices, serves, volleys, and even flat balls with a continental...but not topspin!!
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2007
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  42. movdqa

    movdqa Legend

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    Here's the only picture that I could find of him hitting a forehand. I need a racquet in my hand to guess at a grip. But I'd like to reiterate that I did use a continental grip for many years and was able to hit heavy topspin shots and topspin lobs. I have a bunch of very old tennis books but they're probably in
    boxes but they may have more pictures of players back in the 50s, 60s and 70s.

    [​IMG]
     
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  43. stormholloway

    stormholloway Legend

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    I'm pretty sure Laver was eastern.
     
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  44. BruceG

    BruceG Rookie

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    I don't think he was rude at all and I do think you're lucky more people didn't take offense to your post. You just butted in after people said they hit topspin with a continental grip, and told them it isn't possible. Might as well have just called them liars because thats all youre doing.
    Also, he never said that you were saying Laver and Nastase didnt use continental grips and if thats what you got out of "I think you owe us all an apology, although, instead of apologising I'd be happier if you learned 1) what a Continental grip really is and 2) a bit about Laver and Nastase" then I wouldnt be criticising someone else's reading skills. Perhaps if you learned a bit more about Nastase and Laver and what a continental grip was, you wouldn't have made such a bad statement.
    Dude, just admit you're wrong and let it lie. These guys have been around a long time and they know their stuff but Im sure they'll be cool if you just admit you're wrong instead of acting like its someone else at fault.
     
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  45. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    aye. in addition to the frame balls, he also coughs up some short balls from misshits he wouldnt otherwise do, and last match I saw, Nadal ate those up really well. That explains why his level of play often erodes in the wind and on the dirt. It's amazing Fed is so good that he can give up points like that from frame balls and misshits, and still manage to dominate most everyone...except for Nadal and Canas at the moment. every other player giving away points, pays the price.
    i think a big factor is using more small muscles vs larger muscles. to get top with a continental, the wrist comes more into play...wrist muscles are smaller muscles which are more twitchly and less controllable muscles and harder to precisely repeat than those you use with a stronger grip. i think that is one of the reasons why the UE count was higher back then. to me, Nastase was the classic with hitting all kinds of spins (including wild topspin) with mild grips..he may have had the best hands of all time...unfortunately he never really put volleys away like he should have/could have. i think much of it was his nature of trying to prolong the point..i think there were many times where he could have put the ball away, but elected to play some cat and mouse

    It was patiently explained to you that many players back then hit top with a continental. i can hit tons of top with a continental altho my grips are more varied these days. many of the good players back then hit top with a continental. you've no clue what you;re talking about and your behaviour is really quite rude.
     
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  46. Attila the tennis Bum

    Attila the tennis Bum Banned

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    1. I didnt call anyone a liar. I just said it isnt possible to really hit topspin with a continental grip. Some people may "Think" they are hitting topspin because with a continental grip the ball will can easily be hit very high. The open racquet face of a contental will shoot the ball to the roof. But thats not topspin even though it may feel like it.

    I have never seen any pro hit a topspin shot with a continental. The picture of laver above is NOT a topspin stroke by any stretch of the imagination.

    2. I was accused of simply saying that Laver and Nastase never used a continental grip. For the record I never said such a thing and therefore I am owed an apology.

    I did not interpret the accusation wrong. I was pointed to a website that merely said Laver and Nastase used a continental grip. it said nothing about these players hitting topspin with a continental grip. If there is any doubt i once again cut and paste the accusation for your consideration:

    3. I know what a ontinental grip is very well because I play woth an extreme continetal grip on my service games. It is the ultimate volley grip. The reason is because the grip naturally points upwards so that you can volley balls that are hit at your feet. The open racquet face will "pop" ball up over the net when they are hit at your feet.

    It is also naturally angeled perfectly so you can hit slice and slice volleys and serves.

    Both of these natural angles are the exact opposite of what is neeed to hit topspin. That being said the open racquet face of the continental will allow one to hit very high moon balls which "feel" like topspin....but they are not topspin.

    4. I know my "stuff" too. I love the continental grip. But its just not meant for topspin. Serves, volley,slice, drop,lobs,flat...all great for continental. But not topspin!! Just read any handbook or ask most pros. No one will tell you to try and hit a topspin shot using a contental grip. Anyone who says anything different is just giving you the worng advice.
     
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  47. Attila the tennis Bum

    Attila the tennis Bum Banned

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    I have yet to see any pro hit topspin using a continental grip. Please patiently show me some sort of proof. Anything at all? I will gladly admit I am wrong. I would not be embarrased about being wrong. It happens to everyone everyday.


    I believe that you believe that you can hit tons of topspin with a continental grip. I am sure you would swear by it! But what you are really hitting is simply high moon balls due to the open racquet face of the continental. It really feels like topspin to you. But its not....at least not compared with the severe topspin of todays game.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2007
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  48. movdqa

    movdqa Legend

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    I agree on you comments about small muscles vs larger muscles which is why I think that players back then tended to use headlight racquets for generating topspin off a contiental. I think that they Maxply certainly fell into this category as did the Adidas racquets that Nastase used.

    I think that Nastase either realized that he was out there to put on a show for the audience or that he was just such a bleeping personality that he liked to string other players along by showing them how good he really was.

    There have been showmen in tennis through the years that I think have helped greatly in expanding the sport. Connors, Agassi (when he was younger), and McEnroe fall into this category.
     
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  49. movdqa

    movdqa Legend

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    Take a racquet, apply a continental grip, and then swing the racquet such that the racquet face is closed. I can swing a racquet with a continental grip with the racquet facing completely down.

    That you have veterans that have seen it done and that have done it themselves should be enough evidence.

    When kids learn vector calculus, I think that they can be stunned to learn that it was discovered before the age of computers, calculators and even decent communication.
     
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  50. Attila the tennis Bum

    Attila the tennis Bum Banned

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    Is it possible to make a basket shooting backwards? Yes of course it is! But is it probable or even something that I would want to do on a regular basis ....no way in hell!!

    To close the racquet face with a continental grip is like shooting hoops backwards. Why on earth would you even want to do that?? Why not just switch grips slightly to an eastern?

    By the way Pete Sampras modeled himself after Laver. Pete used an Eastern grip for his groundstroke topspin shots but I believe he used a continental for serves and volleys. Therefore it may very well be that Laver switched to an eastern for his topspin just like his "student" Pete did. Almost all pros use different grips to do different things. Why should Laver be an exception?


    ***footnote: its not so easy to close the racquet face with a continental. Try it...I dare you! You need to be extraordinarily strong to do so. and on a high ball its virtually impossible. I play with a continental on my service games. If i am caught at the baseline I know I have to quickly switch grips to an eastern.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2007
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