GOAT Discussions

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
The name of the game is MONEY, and Gimeno never attained the status of Santana in the public mind because Gimeno jumped at pro contracts BEFORE he accomplished anything significant in the amateur ranks.
Emerson and Santana stayed amateur because of the economics of the game, because Laver and Rosewall, for all their skill in the mid-1960's, did not command the drawing power of Hoad and Gonzales in the late 1950's and the ability to rent out the major venues; Forest Hills, Roland Garros, Kooyong. Instead, it was Longwood (Boston, not the Big Apple), Stade Coubertin (cheaper, indoor, and no clay!), and Melbourne Arena. A sad decline for the pro game.
No wonder the pros could not offer Emerson and Santana enough contract to overcome the increased funds in the amateur game and a more aggressive cash offer to keep the top amateur stars.
I am not sure that Gimeno could outperform Santana on clay or grass in the mid-1960's. In 1970, Santana beat Laver and Hoad to win at Barcelona, against a field that included Gimeno, and teamed with Hoad to beat Laver and Gimeno in the doubles final.

Gimeno won the French Open while Santana did not. You cannot consider only one tournament. Gimeno was a top ten player in a few open era years, Santana not.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Stolle was fortunate to win Forest Hills in 1966, due to a stumble by Newcombe which sprained his ankle in the second set of the final, the basis for Stolle's amateur ranking. Stolle won precious few events as a pro. Ralston won what as a pro?
Bucholz won what as an amateur? He turned pro too quickly, like Gimeno, and this does nothing to help draw the fans to pro tennis.
Gimeno was definitely BEHIND Laver and Rosewall, that is the point.

Dan, kiki learnt history much better than you have.

Ralston was No. 4 among the pros thus probably meaning No. 4 in the world. He had several wins against Laver in 1967.

Buchholz (not Bucholz) was the No.5 amateur when turning pro after he almost had beaten Laver and Fraser in GS competition.

I never said that Gimeno was equal with Laver and Rosewall but he was near to them while the amateurs were not near to them.

In 1966 Gimeno was the world's best claycourter!

Gimeno defeated Rosewall several times in pro majors and defeated Laver and Rosewall quite often. You cannot reverse tennis history!
 
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BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Just like Fed. Fed is great on clay, but clay is Fed's weakest surface.

No wonder they admire each other so much.

Good joke.

I rank Laver No.4 on clay behind the trio Rosewall, Borg and Nadal (cannot yet decide their exact places). Thus he was stronger than Lendl, Wilander, Federer, Vilas and Co. He won the best claycourt tournament in 1967 (Oklahoma) and 1969 (French Open) among other feats on clay.
 
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TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
I rank Laver No.4 on clay behind the trio Rosewall, Borg and Nadal (cannot yet decide their exact places). Thus he was stronger than Lendl, Wilander, Federer, Vilas and Co. He won the best claycourt tournament in 1967 (Oklahoma) and 1969 (French Open) among other feats on clay.

It's (1)Nadal, (2)Borg, and the rest are behind them. After those two players, ranking other players gets murky.

There's experts who ranked Fed ahead of Laver on clay, but you can't decide Nadal is ahead of Laver?:confused: Ridiculous.
 
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NadalDramaQueen

Guest
Good joke.

I rank Laver No.4 on clay behind the trio Rosewall, Borg and Nadal (cannot yet decide their exact places). Thus he was stronger than Lendl, Wilander, Federer, Vilas and Co. He won the best claycourt tournament in 1967 (Oklahoma) and 1969 (French Open) among other feats on clay.

To sum up your post:

You rank Laver ahead of Federer and others on clay, therefore he is stronger on clay than they are.

Can you spot the fallacy?

It's (1)Nadal, (2)Borg, and the rest are behind them. After those two players, ranking other players gets murky.

There's experts who ranked Fed ahead of Laver on clay, but you can't decide Nadal is ahead of Laver?:confused: Ridiculous.

Ah, but were those experts branded as "true" by BobbyOne? Please let them know to send their credentials and opinions to BobbyOne for approval.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
It's (1)Nadal, (2)Borg, and the rest are behind them. After those two players, ranking other players gets murky.

There's experts who ranked Fed ahead of Laver on clay, but you can't decide Nadal is ahead of Laver?:confused: Ridiculous.

To make it clear-even for you: I wrote that I cannot yet decide between the three greats on clay. Nadal as one of the three greatest is surely ahead of Laver on clay!
 
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BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
To sum up your post:

You rank Laver ahead of Federer and others on clay, therefore he is stronger on clay than they are.

Can you spot the fallacy?



Ah, but were those experts branded as "true" by BobbyOne? Please let them know to send their credentials and opinions to BobbyOne for approval.

NDQ, Your senseless hate against me is really huge and beyond any reason.

There is no fallacy at all. Your logic is really great!

Every poster, every man and woman, can give his or her opinion, can make rankings, so I too. What is your problem, you ignorant?????????????

And as the Authoritative Austrian (Bud Collins) my right to make rankings is thus the more evident.

Why do you not blame hoodjem for making his (by the way reasonable) rankings? I can tell you the answer: because you hate me since my first post.

I only can feel sorry for you and your strange soul....
 
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kiki

Banned
Gimeno won the French Open while Santana did not. You cannot consider only one tournament. Gimeno was a top ten player in a few open era years, Santana not.

Sorry, but Santana won twice RG ( as an amateur).Pietrangeli was a far better player than Proisy.

I think Gimeno would have also won a slam title if he had been allowed to compete, or if open tennis had come along 1963 or 1964.
 

kiki

Banned
Gimeno won the French Open while Santana did not. You cannot consider only one tournament. Gimeno was a top ten player in a few open era years, Santana not.

While Lobb is too radical in his affirmatives, I remember that 1970 event at Barcelona and it was probbaly Santana´s last big show.Gimeno was a more complete player, Santana had the touch of a genious and was a really champion.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Sorry, but Santana won twice RG ( as an amateur).Pietrangeli was a far better player than Proisy.

I think Gimeno would have also won a slam title if he had been allowed to compete, or if open tennis had come along 1963 or 1964.

You are right, for instance an open era 1966 French Open.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Sorry, but Santana won twice RG ( as an amateur).Pietrangeli was a far better player than Proisy.

I think Gimeno would have also won a slam title if he had been allowed to compete, or if open tennis had come along 1963 or 1964.

Gimeno would have had a better chance of winning a French Pro had it continued on Roland Garros clay after 1962 instead of moving to indoor wood at the Stade Coubertin. The move was due to finances being more difficult, of course, problems which began in 1960 with Hoad's absence from the world pro tour.
 

kiki

Banned
except for Rosewall who leads Stolle by the astounding hth of 23:2...

Rosewall was long time doubles partner with the tall and lanky Stolle.Great team, the best of the late 60´s apart from Newcombe/Roche and Hewitt/Mc Millan.

Stolle is becoming another Kodes. a true champion that posters here love to underrate...maybe cause they have few knowledge, maybe because they feel better that way...
 

kiki

Banned
Stolle was fortunate to win Forest Hills in 1966, due to a stumble by Newcombe which sprained his ankle in the second set of the final, the basis for Stolle's amateur ranking. Stolle won precious few events as a pro. Ralston won what as a pro?
Bucholz won what as an amateur? He turned pro too quickly, like Gimeno, and this does nothing to help draw the fans to pro tennis.
Gimeno was definitely BEHIND Laver and Rosewall, that is the point.

Yes, Stolle was fortunate towin against Newk and Rochey just as Kodes was fortunate to win 3 majors out of 8 titles - incredible efficiency, nobody remarked it- and Hingsi was fortunate that the Serena lass was young and Davenport was not at her very peak and and and and

I am amazed at the levels of unknowledgement and cluelesness that the self defined historians who read 100 tennis books a year have...JAJAJAJAJAJAJA

it´s better laughing than crying as many say...

-And I still think Hoad is the peakest of the peaks, BTW-
 
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NadalDramaQueen

Guest
NDQ, Your senseless hate against me is really huge and beyond any reason.

There is no fallacy at all. Your logic is really great!

Every poster, every man and woman, can give his or her opinion, can make rankings, so I too. What is your problem, you ignorant?????????????

And as the Authoritative Austrian (Bud Collins) my right to make rankings is thus the more evident.

Why do you not blame hoodjem for making his (by the way reasonable) rankings? I can tell you the answer: because you hate me since my first post.

I only can feel sorry for you and your strange soul....

Everyone has a right to their opinion. An opinion doesn't make something an indisputable fact, however. You can't use your opinion about Rosewall or Laver being the best to prove that they are the best. I don't understand how you don't see this.

Why would I "blame" hoodjem for making rankings? I generally enjoy his posts and any rankings that he may give. I'm not sure about you, BobbyOne, but I gladly add any new knowledge I come across to my own. I only dislike people who don't accept reason.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Everyone has a right to their opinion. An opinion doesn't make something an indisputable fact, however. You can't use your opinion about Rosewall or Laver being the best to prove that they are the best. I don't understand how you don't see this.

Why would I "blame" hoodjem for making rankings? I generally enjoy his posts and any rankings that he may give. I'm not sure about you, BobbyOne, but I gladly add any new knowledge I come across to my own. I only dislike people who don't accept reason.

When did I ever claim that my rankings are the truth???? They are my opinion and I think they are quite reasonable. Why do you accept rankings from other posters or other experts but criticize my ones? Why do you always, ALWAYS, try to treat me as a baby or an idiot?????????????

You never called me a Günter Parche (as your friend Limpinhitter did), but in a certain sense your attacs against me (and only against me even there are several posters with sometimes strange opinions) are more obnoxious than Limpinhitter's!!

To be exact: My opinions about Rosewall and Laver are NOT NOT NOT the prove that Rosewall and Laver are the best (plus Tilden and Gonzalez). It's totally irreal that you can insinuate I would rate them as the prove my opinions are the truth! But I concede that I claim to have good arguments that they are GOAT candidates. I can give many facts in this sense.

I think you are pretty intelligent but your brain seems to make holidays when you read and answer my posts.Caution: Hate can reduce the intelligence! I am very disappointed about your behaviour, NadalDramaQueen!!

I hope for a change...
 
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NadalDramaQueen

Guest
When did I ever claim that my rankings are the truth???? They are my opinion and I think they are quite reasonable. Why do you accept rankings from other posters or other experts but criticize my ones? Why do you always, ALWAYS, try to treat me as a baby or an idiot?????????????

You never called me a Günter Parche (as your friend Limpinhitter did), but in a certain sense your attacs against me (and only against me even there are several posters with sometimes strange opinions) are more obnoxious than Limpinhitter's!!

To be exact: My opinions about Rosewall and Laver are NOT NOT NOT the prove that Rosewall and Laver are the best (plus Tilden and Gonzalez). It's totally irreal that you can insinuate I would rate them as the prove my opinions are the truth!

I think you are pretty intelligent but your brain seems to make holidays when you read and answer my posts.Caution: Hate can reduce the intelligence! I am very disappointed about your behaviour, NadalDramaQueen!!

I hope for a change...

I only said that in your previous post you seemed to use your rankings to somehow make the point that Laver was stronger than some other players. Please read that post. Perhaps you didn't mean the post the way it came out, or I misinterpreted it.

Again, I have no issue with anyone giving rankings, not even you. I disagree with many of the rankings (especially on this forum) but it doesn't bother me unless the poster seems to be generally unreasonable. Even then, I am not really bothered, only motivated enough to post here.

BobbyOne, I don't think you are an idiot. I only try to be extra clear with you because I realize there is a potential language barrier. There is nothing idiotic about being more fluent in another language. Of course there are times when I poke fun of your eagerness to proclaim your expertise, but that is another matter.

To quote you:

I'm disappointed about your accusation. You seem to take it as an insult when I contradict your opinion.

You take it as an insult (or attack) when I contradict your opinion, no matter what way I do it. I have tried many approaches and you always respond in the same manner. I am also no friend of limpinhitter, so I'm not sure why you would think that.

You are disappointed with my behavior, yet you are the one who has been insulting in the last few posts. Just as you try to open everyone's eyes about old professionals other than Laver, I only want you to accept the limitations of judging greatness in tennis.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
I only said that in your previous post you seemed to use your rankings to somehow make the point that Laver was stronger than some other players. Please read that post. Perhaps you didn't mean the post the way it came out, or I misinterpreted it.

Again, I have no issue with anyone giving rankings, not even you. I disagree with many of the rankings (especially on this forum) but it doesn't bother me unless the poster seems to be generally unreasonable. Even then, I am not really bothered, only motivated enough to post here.

BobbyOne, I don't think you are an idiot. I only try to be extra clear with you because I realize there is a potential language barrier. There is nothing idiotic about being more fluent in another language. Of course there are times when I poke fun of your eagerness to proclaim your expertise, but that is another matter.

To quote you:



You take it as an insult (or attack) when I contradict your opinion, no matter what way I do it. I have tried many approaches and you always respond in the same manner. I am also no friend of limpinhitter, so I'm not sure why you would think that.

You are disappointed with my behavior, yet you are the one who has been insulting in the last few posts. Just as you try to open everyone's eyes about old professionals other than Laver, I only want you to accept the limitations of judging greatness in tennis.

NDQ, Thanks fgor your more friendly tone in the recent post.

I read my older post: I only wrote that I rank Laver No.4 on clay. Only you and TMF have misinterpreted that.

EVERY person believes that his or her opinions are right.Otherwise they would not tell them to others.For instance you believe that Rosewall is not the GOAT. You think that's correct. And it is your right. Also my right to think that my opinions are right. But I never say they are the truth!

I'm proud of my knowledge but I only write about it when and if a person belittles me!

You CAN contradict but please without any insinuation and treatuing me like a baby.

I see that you always have the same nasty approach towards me. Your Fall of Man was in your first post on the other htread where you seemed to be angry that I rank Laver and Rosewall ahaed of Federer and you said: GO TO THE OTHER THREAD. It was rather nasty. Please stop to hate me and to belittle me.

I wrote "your friend Limpinhitter" because you supported him when he was obnoxious towards me.

Hope we can discuss more seriously one day.

BobbyOne
 
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NadalDramaQueen

Guest
NDQ, Thanks fgor your more friendly tone in the recent post.

I read my older post: I only wrote that I rank Laver No.4 on clay. Only you and TMF have misinterpreted that.

EVERY person believes that his or her opinions are right.Otherwise they would not tell them to others.For instance you believe that Rosewall is not the GOAT. You think that's correct. And it is your right. Also my right to think that my opinions are right. But I never say they are the truth!

I'm proud of my knowledge but I only write about it when and if a person belittles me!

You CAN contradict but please without any insinuation and treatuing me like a baby.

I see that you always have the same nasty approach towards me. Your Fall of Man was in your first post on the other htread where you seemed to be angry that I rank Laver and Rosewall ahaed of Federer and you said: GO TO THE OTHER THREAD. It was rather nasty. Please stop to hate me and to belittle me.

I wrote "your friend Limpinhitter" because you supported him when he was obnoxious towards me.

Hope we can discuss more seriously one day.

BobbyOne

I usually let it go at this point, but I guess not this time.

In your older post, you said that you rank Laver no. 4 on clay, thus he is stronger than Federer, Lendl, and others.

There is a difference between having an opinion and believing that you are infallible. Only when we realize that we are just like everyone else can we begin to correct our errors.

I disagree that I am treating you like a baby and I prefer to not have such odd discussions anyway. I am only contradicting your posts, please don't be overly dramatic about the process.

It wasn't nasty when I said that you should stop spamming the thread when people were trying to have a discussion. Many posters agreed with me. I'm very sorry that you tried to derail a thread when you first joined and no one thought your posts were worthwhile. That is your issue. I know it is hard to believe, but in some parts of the forum the discussion will actually stay on topic.

You were both obnoxious and you finally pushed him over the edge.

That possibility isn't looking good, unfortunately. A start would be to simply reply to my posts without accusing me of any hatred when I disagree with you.
 
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BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
I usually let it go at this point, but I guess not this time.

In your older post, you said that you rank Laver no. 4 on clay, thus he is stronger than Federer, Lendl, and others.

There is a difference between having an opinion and believing that you are infallible. Only when we realize that we are just like everyone else can we begin to correct our errors.

I disagree that I am treating you like a baby and I prefer to not have such odd discussions anyway. I am only contradicting your posts, please don't be overly dramatic about the process.

It wasn't nasty when I said that you should stop spamming the thread when people were trying to have a discussion. Many posters agreed with me. I'm very sorry that you tried to derail a thread when you first joined and no one thought your posts were worthwhile. That is your issue. I know it is hard to believe, but in some parts of the forum the discussion will actually stay on topic.

You were both obnoxious and you finally pushed him over the edge.

That possibility isn't looking good, unfortunately. A start would be to simply reply to my posts without accusing me of any hatred when I disagree with you.

Caution;: Hate reduces intelligence: I still believe that you are intelligent but with your hate you "see" something what never happened: I always am aware that my theses are just opinions with the exception when I give numbers of a player's career and other facts (and even then I can err).

From the first post onwards you hated me ("Go to the other thread (or blog)!") only because I said that Laver, Rosewall and others were stronger than Federer (In my opinion of course) and you often accuse me to write "always the same". This shows you have not read my many posts or you drive out logic.

To say it once more: When I give rankings and even write that "thus he was stronger than Lendl and others" I of course mean that this is my OPINION. Maybe I should- specially for you- always add "In my opinion" but I thought it's clear for the readers that I only give my opinion! Most posters write that player X is better than player Y but you never blamed them for this. Only me...

You meant Limpinhitter without giving his name: Now I'm guilty that he was banned! That's curious... Limpinhitter often distorted my statements and arguments and therefore I formulated a bit sharper than usually but only he used nasty words! Supporting distorting is a bad sign for you.

When I give any rankings I'm of course ready to accept any contradiction and to discuss the matter. I don't know why you insinuate the contrary! I'm not infallible and have changed already sometimes my opinions after I have gotten reasonable contras. You never gave me contra arguments...

You again insult me in writing that I brought spam when other posters wanted a discussion and that my posts are bad and that many posters agree with you.

I can assure you: I do know that also many other posters find my posts (or at least most of them) quite reasonable....

"No one thought your posts are worthwile". Thanks. Thanks! It's really great!!

At the end I give you an example for your non objectivity towards me: When TMF blamed me for Laver possibly ranking over Nadal on clay ("ridiculous"), you did not realize that this accusation was wrong (because I of course rank Nadal ahead of Laver on clay and it was clear for the readers) and supported TMF...

Alas, you do me wrong.
 
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NadalDramaQueen

Guest
Caution;: Hate reduces intelligence: I still believe that you are intelligent but with your hate you "see" something what never happened: I always am aware that my theses are just opinions with the exception when I give numbers of a player's career and other facts.

From the first post onwards you hated me ("Go to the other thread (or blog)) only because I said that Laver, Rosewall and others were stronger than Federer (In my opinion of course) and you often accuses me to write "always the same". This shows you have not read my many posts or you drive out logic.

To say it once more: When I give rankings and even write that "thus he was stronger than Lendl and others" I of course mean that this is my OPINION. Maybe I should- specially for you- always add "In my opinion" but I thought it's clear for the readers that I only gire my opinion!

You meant Limpinhitter without giving his name: Now I'm guilty that he was banned! That's curious... Limpinhitter often distorted my statements and arguments and therefore I formulated a bit sharper than usual but only he used nasty words! Supporting distorting is a bad sign for you.

When I give any rankings I'm of course ready to accept any contradiction and to discuss the matter. I don't know why you insinuate the contrary! I'm not infallible and have changed already sometimes my opinions after I have gotten reasonable contras. You never gave me contra arguments...

You again insults me in writing that I brought spam when otherr posters wanted a discussion and that my posts are bad and that many posters agree with you.

I can assure you: I do know that also many other posters find my posts (or at least many of them) quite reasonable....

"No one thought your posts are worthwile". Thanks. Thanks!

At the end I give you an example for your non objectivity towards me: When TMF blamed me for Laver possibly ranking over Nadal on clay, You did not realize that this accusation is wrong (because I of course rank Nadal ahead of Laver on clay) and supported TMF...

I have read through that thread, BobbyOne. No one hated you, only disagreed with your posts. Please note that I was referring to that thread when I was talking about your posts.

Do you want a pat on the back each time you're somewhat objective?

All I ask is that you respond to my posts without bringing up any perceived "relationship issues" that you think we have. I do not want to continually have this conversation with you. Respond to the post at hand, nothing more, please.

For instance, if you would have just said at the start that my summation of your post was incorrect and that you weren't making a circular argument, this discussion would have been unnecessary. :) Instead, you bring up so many unrelated things.
 
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BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
I have read through that thread, BobbyOne. No one hated you, only disagreed with your posts. Please note that I was referring to that thread when I was talking about your posts.

Do you want a pat on the back each time you're somewhat objective?

All I ask is that you respond to my posts without bringing up any perceived "relationship issues" that you think we have. I do not want to continually have this conversation with you. Respond to the post at hand, nothing more, please.

For instance, if you would have just said at the start that my summation of your post was incorrect and that you weren't making a circular argument, this discussion would have been unnecessary. :) Instead, you bring up so many unrelated things.

I think it's better to stop now our quarrel and discussion. All is said.

Just one last point: You are wrong that you only criticized my post in this thread. I do remember that you ALWAYS criticize me and my posts from the beginning onwards. I will never understand this.
 
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Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Dan, kiki learnt history much better than you have.

Ralston was No. 4 among the pros thus probably meaning No. 4 in the world. He had several wins against Laver in 1967.

Buchholz (not Bucholz) was the No.5 amateur when turning pro after he almost had beaten Laver and Fraser in GS competition.

I never said that Gimeno was equal with Laver and Rosewall but he was near to them while the amateurs were not near to them.

In 1966 Gimeno was the world's best claycourter!

Gimeno defeated Rosewall several times in pro majors and defeated Laver and Rosewall quite often. You cannot reverse tennis history!

Sorry, number 4 and number 5 dosesn't cut it for a top pro. The players who draw crowds win the big amateur tournaments, which Ralston and Buchholz and Gimeno did not.
Oklahoma City was a major?
It was a major only in Oklahoma.
The point is, Emerson and Santana (both of whom beat Laver in majors) were the big name draws, who turned down big pro offers, to make MORE money as amateurs.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Stolle beat Laver several times in 1967 and Newcombe in 1969 in the Queensclub.

Stolle won precious little as a pro. How many tournaments? One or maybe two?
Stolle and others could upset Laver in minor events, but not in the biggies.
Newk was nursing a sore back at the 1969 post-French period. He had hurt himself at the French, in a marathon win over Kodes.

There is NO COMPETITION for the late 50's pro field as against the mid-60's pro field.
I think that Cooper, Anderson, Rose, McGregor, Hartwig were on a par with Gimeno, Stolle, Buchholz, Ralston, and had better records as amateurs.
Which leaves us comparing Laver and Rosewall to Gonzales, Hoad, Rosewall(younger and better), Sedgman, Trabert, Segura.
A much stronger field in the late 50's, and explains why the pros could rent out Forest Hills, Roland Garros, Kooyong etc.
The decline in the pro game is clear.
 
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BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Sorry, number 4 and number 5 dosesn't cut it for a top pro. The players who draw crowds win the big amateur tournaments, which Ralston and Buchholz and Gimeno did not.
Oklahoma City was a major?
It was a major only in Oklahoma.
The point is, Emerson and Santana (both of whom beat Laver in majors) were the big name draws, who turned down big pro offers, to make MORE money as amateurs.

Dan, I never wrote that Oklahoma was a major. Gimeno was the best claycourter in 1966 because he won the two biggest claycourt tournaments that year, Oklahoma and Barcelona, in both beating Laver and Rosewall. I strongly doubt that a Santana or another amateur would have been able to do that.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Dan, I never wrote that Oklahoma was a major. Gimeno was the best claycourter in 1966 because he won the two biggest claycourt tournaments that year, Oklahoma and Barcelona, in both beating Laver and Rosewall. I strongly doubt that a Santana or another amateur would have been able to do that.

Santana did something similar at Roland Garros in 1961, beating Laver, Emerson, and Pietrangeli in successive, close, five-set matches.
All three of these guys were two-time Roland Garros champions (three for Laver counting the 1968 RG Pro).
Overall, Santana had more success than Gimeno on grass, winning the two biggies, Wimbledon and Forest Hills, and beating Emmo in the 1965 Davis Cup in Australia.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Stolle won precious little as a pro. How many tournaments? One or maybe two?
Stolle and others could upset Laver in minor events, but not in the biggies.
Newk was nursing a sore back at the 1969 post-French period. He had hurt himself at the French, in a marathon win over Kodes.

There is NO COMPETITION for the late 50's pro field as against the mid-60's pro field.
I think that Cooper, Anderson, Rose, McGregor, Hartwig were on a par with Gimeno, Stolle, Buchholz, Ralston, and had better records as amateurs.
Which leaves us comparing Laver and Rosewall to Gonzales, Hoad, Rosewall(younger and better), Sedgman, Trabert, Segura.
A much stronger field in the late 50's, and explains why the pros could rent out Forest Hills, Roland Garros, Kooyong etc.
The decline in the pro game is clear.

Dan, I counted four tournaments won by Stolle in 1967. He also won the South African tour against Laver, Rosewall and other strong players.

I doubt that Rose, McGregor and Hartwig were on par with Gimeno, Stolle, Buchholz and Ralston. See their ranking in the pro ranks.

Rosewall was not weaker in the mid 1960s than in the end 1950s (In my opinion, to do a favour to NDQ).
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Santana did something similar at Roland Garros in 1961, beating Laver, Emerson, and Pietrangeli in successive, close, five-set matches.
All three of these guys were two-time Roland Garros champions (three for Laver counting the 1968 RG Pro).
Overall, Santana had more success than Gimeno on grass, winning the two biggies, Wimbledon and Forest Hills, and beating Emmo in the 1965 Davis Cup in Australia.

Dan, you "forget" that Santana was not forced to play against peak Laver and Rosewall as Gimeno was...
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Dan, I counted four tournaments won by Stolle in 1967. He also won the South African tour against Laver, Rosewall and other strong players.

I doubt that Rose, McGregor and Hartwig were on par with Gimeno, Stolle, Buchholz and Ralston. See their ranking in the pro ranks.

Rosewall was not weaker in the mid 1960s than in the end 1950s (In my opinion, to do a favour to NDQ).

You mean, four MINOR tournaments for Stolle, and a South African tour, which was kind of like the end of season break for the pros. Anything for Stolle after 1967?

You mean Cooper, Anderson, Rose, McGregor, Hartwig were not on a par with Gimeno, Stolle, Buchholz, and Ralston? Look at the records in majors. The first group is much better.
I count two majors for the 60's group (Gimeno in a depleted 1972 French, Stolle at Forest Hills when Newk sprained his ankle. Not much to cheer about.
Cooper (four majors, including Wimbledon and Forest Hills), Anderson (Forest Hills), Rose (French and Australian), McGregor (Australian, runnerup at Wimbledon, same as Ralston), Hartwig (runnerup at Forest Hills, where his opponent did not sprain his ankle in the final, beat Hoad twice on the 1959 Ampol Championship tour).
As I say, no contest.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Dan, you "forget" that Santana was not forced to play against peak Laver and Rosewall as Gimeno was...

Gimeno CHOSE to turn pro in 1961, before he won any significant event in the amateurs.
Laver and Emerson were already at a peak in 1961, the top two guys on the amateur tour.
Turning pro did not add much to a top amateur's game, other than reduction of errors, and adjusting to playing tough matches every day.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
You mean, four MINOR tournaments for Stolle, and a South African tour, which was kind of like the end of season break for the pros. Anything for Stolle after 1967?

You mean Cooper, Anderson, Rose, McGregor, Hartwig were not on a par with Gimeno, Stolle, Buchholz, and Ralston? Look at the records in majors. The first group is much better.
I count two majors for the 60's group (Gimeno in a depleted 1972 French, Stolle at Forest Hills when Newk sprained his ankle. Not much to cheer about.
Cooper (four majors, including Wimbledon and Forest Hills), Anderson (Forest Hills), Rose (French and Australian), McGregor (Australian, runnerup at Wimbledon, same as Ralston), Hartwig (runnerup at Forest Hills, where his opponent did not sprain his ankle in the final, beat Hoad twice on the 1959 Ampol Championship tour).
As I say, no contest.

Dan, are you the new Limpinhitter? You distort my arguments!

The South African tour was not at the end of the 1967 season. Stolle won also the 1965 French Championships.

Stolle has also won four open era tournaments.

I did not write that Cooper and Anderson were not on par with Gimeno and Co. I referred to Rose, Hartwig and McGregor. But I do know (even if NDQ will again blame me) that Gimeno was stronger than Anderson and Cooper. Read to pro ranks!

It's not fair to mention McGregor's amateur achievements as he did not play much in the pro ranks at the end 1950s and when, rather weakly...
 
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TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
(This thread is not about who is the GOAT. Rather it is about how these GOAT discussions are trending.)

It occurs to me that since Fed has overtaken Pete in the slams count and tied his 7 Wimbers titles, Sampras is seldom mentioned in the GOAT discussions any more.

Pete's reputation seems to have been largely based (by himself?) on his total slam count number and his seven Wimbledon titles.

Lately the discussion has been about Fed and Laver, or Hoad, or Gonzales or Rosewall, (or maybe Tilden being mentioned). It seems to be about (what I call) apples versus oranges, or players who are difficult to compare (as opposed to easy), because so much history has elapsed and conditions have changed so much.

I don't know whether this is correct, but I do think that Sampras has engineered his own irrelevance by putting so much emphasis on slam count totals, and not on other aspects of his record.

I feel sorry for Sampras because he takes the biggest hit of all the goat candidates after Federer have surpassed him. Sampras doesn't have a leg to stand on when compare to Roger because Roger is ahead of him in almost every categories. And since their era is only 10 years apart, there's not much excuse to say the game/condition was difference. Besides Sampras, Nadal and Agassi take a big hit too because they are playing in modern time. Unlike Laver/Rosewall, their fans always have reasons to say you can't compare to the 60s because tennis was so much different than today. So no matter how much Roger accomplished, they will never conceded him as a goat. Every year since 2009, Roger continue to win and they move the goalposts which is ridiculous. Roger can win 20 slams in the future and he's still doesn't move further ahead of Laver. Don't you find that absurd ?

The funny thing is it's accepted that Roger continue to distant himself from the past great players except a few like Laver, Pancho, Rosewall.

Basically, Sampras was neck in neck with Laver as a goat BEFORE the arrival of Federer. However, things changed because Roger's succcess removed Sampras, and Laver is still in the discussion. It makes no sense at all. Either all the past great players continue to fall below Federer(since he's still active), or none of them at all. You can't pick and choose certain players(ie Laver) have no effect while certain players(ie Sampras) is falling further away. The truth is....ALL OF THEM ARE CONSTANTLY FALLING FURTHER AWAY FROM ROGER.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Gimeno CHOSE to turn pro in 1961, before he won any significant event in the amateurs.
Laver and Emerson were already at a peak in 1961, the top two guys on the amateur tour.
Turning pro did not add much to a top amateur's game, other than reduction of errors, and adjusting to playing tough matches every day.

Dan, your endeavour to belittle the 1960s pros is really astonishing.

Laver was NOT at his peak in 1961! Dominating the amateur field is not a prove for being at the peak. Almost all great players improved after turning pros. Laver's peak began only in 1964.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
I feel sorry for Sampras because he takes the biggest hit of all the goat candidates after Federer have surpassed him. Sampras doesn't have a leg to stand on when compare to Roger because Roger is ahead of him in almost every categories. And since their era is only 10 years apart, there's not much excuse to say the game/condition was difference. Besides Sampras, Nadal and Agassi take a big hit too because they are playing in modern time. Unlike Laver/Rosewall, their fans always have reasons to say you can't compare to the 60s because tennis was so much different than today. So no matter how much Roger accomplished, they will never conceded him as a goat. Every year since 2009, Roger continue to win and they move the goalposts which is ridiculous. Roger can win 20 slams in the future and he's still doesn't move further ahead of Laver. Don't you find that absurd ?

The funny thing is it's accepted that Roger continue to distant himself from the past great players except a few like Laver, Pancho, Rosewall.

Basically, Sampras was neck in neck with Laver as a goat BEFORE the arrival of Federer. However, things changed because Roger's succcess removed Sampras, and Laver is still in the discussion. It makes no sense at all. Either all the past great players continue to fall below Federer(since he's still active), or none of them at all. You can't pick and choose certain players(ie Laver) have no effect while certain players(ie Sampras) is falling further away. The truth is....ALL OF THEM ARE CONSTANTLY FALLING FURTHER AWAY FROM ROGER.

TMF, I don't understand why one cannot say that Laver, Rosewall and Gonzalez can rank ahead of Federer but not other players of older decades.

I believe that Laver was greater than Federer but that Anderson, Stolle, Emerson, Dibbs, Mayotte were not greater because they did not achieve what Federer achieved. You could accept that the Laver, Gonzalez and Rosewall troika was far ahead of most or all of their contemporaries.
 
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TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
TMF, I don't understand why one cannot say that Laver, Rosewall and Gonzalez can rank ahead of Federer but not other players of older decades.

I believe that Laver was greater than Federer but that Anderson, Stolle, Emerson, Dibbs, Mayotte were not greater because they did not achieve what Federer achieved. You could accept that the Laver, Gonzalez and Rosewall troika was far ahead of most or all of their contemporaries.

You didn't get my point. The past great players resume are fixed, set in stone. However, Roger continue to add more to his legacy but yet old-timers like you don't see any changes in their position. I mean Roger can win 30 slams and you will never conceded him above Laver. I call that biased, unreasonable. Fed in 2009 was considered the greatest, and if not, no one can place ahead of him. But Fed continue to win, logic say he moves further ahead, simple as that.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
You didn't get my point. The past great players resume are fixed, set in stone. However, Roger continue to add more to his legacy but yet old-timers like you don't see any changes in their position. I mean Roger can win 30 slams and you will never conceded him above Laver. I call that biased, unreasonable. Fed in 2009 was considered the greatest, and if not, no one can place ahead of him. But Fed continue to win, logic say he moves further ahead, simple as that.

TMF, You can be sure: If Federer actually wins 20 or 30 additional GS tournaments in the future, I glady will rank him above Laver and Rosewall...

For the moment he does not have achieved enough to rank him first (NDQ: In my humble opinion of course).
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Dan, your endeavour to belittle the 1960s pros is really astonishing.

Laver was NOT at his peak in 1961! Dominating the amateur field is not a prove for being at the peak. Almost all great players improved after turning pros. Laver's peak began only in 1964.

The point is, Laver and Emmo reached maturity as players in 1961, as evidenced by their dominance, together with Santana.
It only took a few weeks to get up to speed on the pro tours, as evidenced by Rosewall, Hoad, Laver, etc.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Dan, are you the new Limpinhitter? You distort my arguments!

The South African tour was not at the end of the 1967 season. Stolle won also the 1965 French Championships.

Stolle has also won four open era tournaments.

I did not write that Cooper and Anderson were not on par with Gimeno and Co. I referred to Rose, Hartwig and McGregor. But I do know (even if NDQ will again blame me) that Gimeno was stronger than Anderson and Cooper. Read to pro ranks!

It's not fair to mention McGregor's amateur achievements as he did not play much in the pro ranks at the end 1950s and when, rather weakly...

Cooper and Anderson had much better records than Gimeno, amateur or pro.
They both won major titles as amateurs (Gimeno failed here, and jumped prematurely to the pro ranks), and titles at least as significant as Gimeno's as pros. Gimeno flunked on grass, where Santana was clearly superior to Gimeno, and goofed his chances indoor at Wembley (by the way, how did he manage to lose to a crippled old part-timer Hoad at Wembley in 1963 and 1966?)
Hoad played against Santana in 1965 in practice matches in Australia prior to the Davis Cup final, and was stunned by Santana's ability.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Cooper and Anderson had much better records than Gimeno, amateur or pro.

Gimeno turned professional in 1960, so early on in his career before he had won a major, whereas Cooper and Anderson had won majors as amateurs (especially Cooper being the dominant amateur player of 1958, in winning 3 majors that year).

But how do you come to the conclusion that Cooper or Anderson did better in the pros than Gimeno, when this clearly isn't the case? Gimeno was a top 3-4 professional player from 1962-1967, behind 2-3 of Laver, Rosewall, Hoad and Gonzales. Anderson had an amazing tournament win at the Wembley Pro in 1959 and managed to stay around on the pro tour until the open era arrived, even reaching the 1972 Australian Open final, but Anderson wasn't as high ranked as Gimeno was in the pro ranks for 6 straight years.

As for Cooper, of all the great amateur players from the 1940s to 1960s, Cooper probably suffered the most of all as a professional, as his professional results were largely a disappointment. He had burned out within a few years and was off the pro tour after 1962, after 4 years on the pro tour.

They both won major titles as amateurs (Gimeno failed here, and jumped prematurely to the pro ranks), and titles at least as significant as Gimeno's as pros.

Nonsense. Gimeno became a much better player by playing in the professional ranks. Are you also of the opinion that Gonzales "jumped prematurely to the pro ranks" in late 1949? One can only make that conclusion if they just value the mainstream majors won on a balance sheet.

Gimeno flunked on grass, where Santana was clearly superior to Gimeno

Santana was the first tennis player to coin the phrase "grass is for cows". He hated the surface. I know Santana eventually won Wimbledon in 1966, but Gimeno was banned from playing at the tournament due to his professional status.

and goofed his chances indoor at Wembley (by the way, how did he manage to lose to a crippled old part-timer Hoad at Wembley in 1963 and 1966?)

Hoad in 1963 was still very good, just look at how he beat a recently turned pro in Laver. Even after 1965, he was still occasionally very dangerous, despite the reduced mobility. Look at how he beat Gonzales at the Wimbledon Pro tournament in 1967, by 3-6, 11-9, 8-6.

Hoad played against Santana in 1965 in practice matches in Australia prior to the Davis Cup final, and was stunned by Santana's ability.

Okay, but what does this prove? Cliff Drysdale thinks that Santana was by far the toughest opponent he ever had in his career. Drysdale thinks that Laver was a lot easier to play against than Santana, but nobody would say that Santana was a better player than Laver.
 
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NadalDramaQueen

Guest
TMF, You can be sure: If Federer actually wins 20 or 30 additional GS tournaments in the future, I glady will rank him above Laver and Rosewall...

For the moment he does not have achieved enough to rank him first (NDQ: In my humble opinion of course).

Hello BobbyOne,

What I got from TMF's post was that before Federer came along Sampras was ranked up there with Laver and the rest of the best. I would say that some even ranked him as the best. Do you agree with this or was Sampras generally never put up on the GOAT pedestal?

The issue is that Federer has now overtaken his records and they are comparable (not spread out in time enough to be considered an apples to oranges comparison), so he is generally placed above Sampras. In response to this, it seems like Sampras has been demoted to account for the relative difference between Fed and Sampras so that Fed didn't shoot up too high above that group at the top. What TMF suggested (from what I read) is that it seems like the position of Sampras is variable while the past greats remain fixed, as their records are different enough to bypass any direct comparison. Do you agree with any of this?

I hope my rambling makes sense, I am a bit busy.

I actually think that acknowledging what is and what isn't an opinion is a good exercise for you. :cool: I hope my tone is more friendly in this post.
 
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Mustard

Bionic Poster
It's true that Sampras' all-time standing has taken a hit, because there's very little that Sampras has now done that Federer hasn't equalled or surpassed. Only 6 calendar years as world number 1 is left, I think.

However, Sampras made it known that for him, it was "all about the slams", especially Wimbledon, and that was his attitude. I think it's obvious that he never expected anyone to get to 13-14 majors for a long time, given the way the tennis landscape looked from 1998-2003.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
The point is, Laver and Emmo reached maturity as players in 1961, as evidenced by their dominance, together with Santana.
It only took a few weeks to get up to speed on the pro tours, as evidenced by Rosewall, Hoad, Laver, etc.

Dan, You again "forget" something: The fact (NDQ: yes, the fact) that most amateurs after turning pro had difficulties to cope with the seasoned pros.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Cooper and Anderson had much better records than Gimeno, amateur or pro.
They both won major titles as amateurs (Gimeno failed here, and jumped prematurely to the pro ranks), and titles at least as significant as Gimeno's as pros. Gimeno flunked on grass, where Santana was clearly superior to Gimeno, and goofed his chances indoor at Wembley (by the way, how did he manage to lose to a crippled old part-timer Hoad at Wembley in 1963 and 1966?)
Hoad played against Santana in 1965 in practice matches in Australia prior to the Davis Cup final, and was stunned by Santana's ability.

Dan, Gimeno flunked on grass?? He beat Rosewall in the 1967 US Pro and reached final of the 1969 AO losing to a peak Laver both times plus he reached SF of the 1970 Wimbledon.

Hoad was very strong both in 1963 and 1966. In the latter year he almost beat Rosewall at Wembley.
 
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BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Gimeno turned professional in 1960, so early on in his career before he had won a major, whereas Cooper and Anderson had won majors as amateurs (especially Cooper being the dominant amateur player of 1958, in winning 3 majors that year).

But how do you come to the conclusion that Cooper or Anderson did better in the pros than Gimeno, when this clearly isn't the case? Gimeno was a top 3-4 professional player from 1962-1967, behind 2-3 of Laver, Rosewall, Hoad and Gonzales. Anderson had an amazing tournament win at the Wembley Pro in 1959 and managed to stay around on the pro tour until the open era arrived, even reaching the 1972 Australian Open final, but Anderson wasn't as high ranked as Gimeno was in the pro ranks for 6 straight years.

As for Cooper, of all the great amateur players from the 1940s to 1960s, Cooper probably suffered the most of all as a professional, as his professional results were largely a disappointment. He had burned out within a few years and was off the pro tour after 1962, after 4 years on the pro tour.



Nonsense. Gimeno became a much better player by playing in the professional ranks. Are you also of the opinion that Gonzales "jumped prematurely to the pro ranks" in late 1949? One can only make that conclusion if they just value the mainstream majors won on a balance sheet.



Santana was the first tennis player to coin the phrase "grass is for cows". He hated the surface. I know Santana eventually won Wimbledon in 1966, but Gimeno was banned from playing at the tournament due to his professional status.



Hoad in 1963 was still very good, just look at how he beat a recently turned pro in Laver. Even after 1965, he was still occasionally very dangerous, despite the reduced mobility. Look at how he beat Gonzales at the Wimbledon Pro tournament in 1967, by 3-6, 11-9, 8-6.



Okay, but what does this prove? Cliff Drysdale thinks that Santana was by far the toughest opponent he ever had in his career. Drysdale thinks that Laver was a lot easier to play against than Santana, but nobody would say that Santana was a better player than Laver.

Mustard, Thanks a lot for contradicting the very strange (to say the least) statements of Dan.
 

kiki

Banned
OK, about Gimeno and Santana.

Gimeno looked like more adaptable to different surfaces but, even in the relatively depleted am fields of the middle 60´s, Santana did extremely well on grass, and he beat at home, both nº 1 aussies in Emerson and Newcombe in the 2 finals of the DC event that Spain lost, both times in Australia.

I have seen them play each other and it was really hard tot ell who´d emerge the eventual winner; that was much more an issue of rivalry and political pressure on them than anything else - both were relatively on good terms, anyway.

Much is talked today about Spain´s great team, but even if that is true, thing is the rest of the teams are not so mighty as it was the case with the Australian and US teams of the 60´s and 70´s.Still, a Gimeno,Santana,orantes and Gisbert ( a top class doubles player who also reached an AO final in singles) that could have been gathered, around 1969 to 1971, would be the best ever for Spain and, on clay, almost unbeatable.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Hello BobbyOne,

What I got from TMF's post was that before Federer came along Sampras was ranked up there with Laver and the rest of the best. I would say that some even ranked him as the best. Do you agree with this or was Sampras generally never put up on the GOAT pedestal?

The issue is that Federer has now overtaken his records and they are comparable (not spread out in time enough to be considered an apples to oranges comparison), so he is generally placed above Sampras. In response to this, it seems like Sampras has been demoted to account for the relative difference between Fed and Sampras so that Fed didn't shoot up too high above that group at the top. What TMF suggested (from what I read) is that it seems like the position of Sampras is variable while the past greats remain fixed, as their records are different enough to bypass any direct comparison. Do you agree with any of this?

I hope my rambling makes sense, I am a bit busy.

I actually think that acknowledging what is and what isn't an opinion is a good exercise for you. :cool: I hope my tone is more friendly in this post.

NDQ, I firstly enjoyed your new friendly tone. But secondly I found the old NDQ again: Why do you ask ME about Sampras's status years ago? What does your question insinuate?

Yes, I agree of course that Sampras was widely ranked No.1 all-time (But surely not by all experts!) So it's not a wonder that now Federer is hailed by many as the all-time champion as he has broken most records of Sampras. Did you hope I would disagree here that you can again blame me??

By the way, I again considered my rankings and I stress that the word "I rank" is clearly not the truth but one's opinion. Why did you have difficulty to understand this? I wrote "I RANK Laver" not "Laver is" at the BEGIN of my old post.

But a big insult is again your statement that "acknowledging what is and what isn't an opinion is a good exercise for you"! I don't need exercises to post here and at least from you. I'm not an under-age child. I glady refuse your arrogant manner.

Please don't address me once more! Thanks.
 
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NadalDramaQueen

Guest
NDQ, I firstly enjoyed your new friendly tone. But secondly I found the old NDQ again: Why do you ask ME about Sampras's status years ago? What does your question insinuate?

Yes, I agree of course that Sampras was widely ranked No.1 all-time (But surely not by all experts!) So it's not a wonder that now Federer is hailed by many as the all-time champion as he has broken most records of Sampras. Did you hope I would disagree here that you can again blame me??

By the way, I again considered my rankings and I stress that the word "I rank" is clearly not the truth but one's opinion. Why did you have difficulty to understand this? I wrote "I RANK Laver" not "Laver is" at the BEGIN of my old post.

But a big insult is again your statement that "acknowledging what is and what isn't an opinion is a good exercise for you"! I don't need exercises to post here and at least from you. I'm not an under-age child. I glady refuse your arrogant manner.

Please don't address me once more! Thanks.

Hello BobbyOne,

I was only asking for your opinion on the subject about Sampras and whether or not you agree that the following scenario has happened. The scenario being that instead of Federer bumping Sampras down one spot, his emergence has seemingly knocked him down a few places so that he ends up being below players he was once ranked above. I want to stress that I am deliberately trying to not include the rankings from anyone so as to not start any controversy, as this isn't a discussion about who is the goat, only a discussion about goat discussions.

The reason I ask you is because you were the one who responded to TMF's suggestion. I have no ulterior motive.

I didn't say anything about your rankings specifically in my post, and I was only responding to your including of me in your posts in a lighthearted manner. No offense intended.
 
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