GOAT Discussions

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by hoodjem, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. tomwill65

    tomwill65 New User

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    Lew Hoad struggled in the latter part of 1956 he had to pull out of NSW championships with injury however made a big effort to play in the Davis Cup, playing superlative tennis. Harry Hopman said he would have beaten anyone in the World.TomWill
     
  2. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I concede that in the Davis Cup Hoad was even better than Rosewall.
     
  3. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    The ratings are made for the year AS A WHOLE, not for some fraction of the year. Of course, players can get hot for a period of time, but ratings take everything into account, ALL tournaments, especially the majors. Rosewall hurt his own rating by skipping the clay season, which Hoad swept.
     
  4. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    hahahah¡ I´d like to know what is your full life rock and roll experience¡¡¡
     
  5. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Hoad skipped the summer clay season when Rosewall won many tournaments.
     
  6. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Any poster who admires Laver and Rosewall, is my friend....

    I think we only disagree regarding Vines/Kodes and regarding Nüsslein and Kozeluh...
     
  7. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    No, he didn't. He won the Toronto Invitational ON CLAY in August, the principal CLAY warmup to Forest Hills, beating Davidson in a four-set final.
    I think he skipped the Eastern Grasscourts.
    On the year AS A WHOLE, there is no contest.
     
  8. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, I never doubt that Hoad was 1956 best amateur. But I still say that after Wimbledon Rosewall was clearly the No.1.
     
  9. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Yes, of course, because Hoad's back problem flared up right after Wimbledon, and by the following spring he was put in a body cast for six weeks. It was good that Rosewall turned pro in his place, because it took Hoad until Wimbledon 1957 to recover. He even lost to Drobny at Queens Club 1957, still not back in business.
     
  10. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    LOL, make up your mind, Kiki.
     
  11. ARFED

    ARFED Semi-Pro

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    Well to start, i have actually picked up a racquet, you know that strange thing with the strings and frame
     
  12. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    It's pointless in trying to reason with him. He even gets all panties in a bunch just because the experts rated FEderer ahead of of everyone.
     
  13. ARFED

    ARFED Semi-Pro

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    Well in my opinion they rank about equal, along with Gonzalez, the difference between eras and the amount of success of this 3 makes it impossible for me to separate them, but to call Fed an all time tier 3 goat (when he is clearly the GOAT of the open era) is just plain dumb. However, I do hope that he is trolling :twisted:
     
  14. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    That's exactly what I mean. It's like saying Graf is a 3rd tier great. YOu know that it's impossible to reason with him.

    Is he trolling I'm not sure anymore. Maybe everything he said are exactly what he believe. LOL
     
  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    ARFED, Borg and Sampras are also GOAT candidates for open era. Federer is not clearly the GOAT of the open era.
     
  16. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Hey pc1,

    I hope you made it through the storm in one piece.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2012
  17. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    This is where TMF makes his obligatory post where Federer owns or is near the top at most significant records of the Open Era....Federer is by far the most accomplished and balanced player of the Open Era.
     
  18. ARFED

    ARFED Semi-Pro

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    You funny, funny guy......:)
     
  19. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Nadal is some distance behind Federer, and many have put Nadal above Borg. No way Borg is in the same league as Federer. And Sampras doesn't have a leg to stand on when comparing to Federer.

    Learn tennis !
     
  20. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Some of the old-timers like bobby don't watch modern tennis so they wouldn't know.
     
  21. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    TMF, Yes I have thrown down my TV set in order to not be forced to watch current tennis...
     
  22. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    oh¡ those fantastic years late 60-early 70 where legendary bands were created and exploded...
    As for Vines/Kodes it is just a marketing issue as much as Nusslein and Kozeluh is a matter of people seeing them...

    As I said, there has never been a most creating period since Bach and Mozart than that of late 60´s and early 70´s...and I would like anybody able to disagree...
     
  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    jajajaja, newtards you missed absolutely everything worth on life...absolutely everything¡¡¡

    Obama may disagree with you, you know....
     
  24. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I have given so many proofs of my love for Federer...
     
  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I guess that equals me with Roger...Federer, of course.
     
  26. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Great Post¡¡¡ It is not tennis anymore, it is just ball baseline bashing¡¡¡

    In 10 yrs, tennis is death.
     
  27. ARFED

    ARFED Semi-Pro

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    [​IMG]

    It is good to see such an old guy not being affraid of coming out of the closet...i am proud of you:)
     
  28. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Just a little correction: The greatest music period was between 1770 (I omit the child years of composer Mozart)and 1828 when Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert created their grandious works. By the way, all three lived in the same city, in Vienna. Obviously a good place for talented people....
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
  29. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Nadal ownage and playing a weak era
    In fact I never doubted Fed is the GOAT of weak eras along Tilden
    For true men era consider Budge,Pancho,Kramer,Hoad,Laver,Borg or Sampras
     
  30. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Laver, Sampras, Borg, they've all called Federer the GOAT. So did Nadal :)
     
  31. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    We will never know who the goat is
     
  32. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    But we do know who is widely called the GOAT, atleast for now, and that is Roger Federer :)
     
  33. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    QFT
    Fed detractors are bitter because the growing consensus that Federer is the greatest.



    "I have to give it to him," he said. "He's won all the majors[15] now, and he will win a few more. So in my book he is."
    -Sampras

    “For me he is the greatest player ever to play the game”
    -Borg

    “Roger is just the greatest player of all time”
    -McEnroe

    “Roger Federer certainly is my claim to be the best of all time if there is such a thing”
    -Laver
     
  34. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    I'm honestly not sure how there's much competition in this regard. Federer was far more dominant than either of these two men, won more majors, spent more weeks at number 1 (yes, sampras finished ye#1 once more than fed, but that doesn't change that Federer has more weeks at number 1 by some margin).

    Federer ties record for titles at wimbledon, USO, and AO. Borg doesn't hold record at any of the 4 majors anymore, while Sampras shares two with Federer, but less AO's and NO FO's.

    I don't understand how anyone can rightly say that it's even close. Don't get me wrong... Sampras is my second favorite, all time.. but let's be real.

    As far as all time goes, Another poster pointed out that the emphasis on certain criteria for GOAThood changes with the times..

    I certainly feel that Gonzalez, while not having the same credentials as a Federer or Sampras, more than made up for it with his game.. same with Tilden's dominance.

    Ultimately, I consider Federer among the greatest, along with others I mentioned.

    Why does everyone feel the need to prove one better than the others?
     
  35. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Especially Federer fans feel the need to prove one better than the others...
     
  36. BauerAlmeida

    BauerAlmeida Semi-Pro

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    This.

    And Borg has GOAT credentials.

    He dominated RG and Wimbledon, something no one else did. Beside wining 6 and 5 titles there he also made 4 lot of USO finals, in which they ****ed him with the scheduling, making him play at night when he always asked specifically not to play at night to favor Connors and Mac because they were american.

    And the AO had no relevance back then.

    Not to mention he did all this retiring at 25.

    Sampras maybe doesn't have the same credentials that Fed has (weak on clay, never won 3 majors in one year, while Fed did it 3 times, etc.). But he was 1 for 6 years in a row. Nobody in the open era came close to that.
     
  37. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Oh, the Australian Open didn't matter, so let's disregard Federer's 4 AO titles. And Borg quit at 26 so let's hand him 5 additional Slams because, hey, he was gonna win them anyway! Hey presto! Borg is the GOAT!
     
  38. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    That's the only thing Sampras has left, over Federer. If you're gonna talk about records nobody in the Open Era even came close to, I can list you 10 of those of Federer's.
     
  39. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Sorry, Prisoner.
    Laver rated Fed as the greatest OF THE OPEN ERA, and Hoad as the greatest of the PRE-OPEN ERA.
    Laver also said that if the two were to play each other, it would be the greatest match of all time.
     
  40. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    You're right. But Laver also said, “Roger Federer certainly is my claim to be the best of all time if there is such a thing." The only conclusion we can draw from his quotes regarding the subject is that he considers Hoad the greatest of the pre-open era, Federer the greatest of the Open Era, and that he believes the greatest of the Open Era is better than the greatest of the pre-open era :)
     
  41. ARFED

    ARFED Semi-Pro

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    Yes, they do have GOAT credentials, but from an objective point of view there is no way in hell that either Sampras or Borg can be placed above Federer in an open era ranking. Federer owns pretty much every significant record of the open era, the most complete resumee by far (i would say that he is only missing the Grand Slam but neither Borg or Sampras achieved that feat also). I could even argue that there is case to put Nadal above Borg already ,not sure about Sampras though. I see no problem with people arguing in favor of Gonzalez, Laver, Tilden, Rosewall, etc. because in those times the measurement of gratness was very different back then but Borg and especially Sampras career had pretty much the same standard.
     
  42. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Exactly. In terms of career achievements and relative greatness, Laver, Gonzales and Rosewall compare and compete Federer. Sampras and Borg, now, just can not be put above Federer, there's literally no way to justify it anymore. You could put Borg and Sampras on tier 1 of GOATs (I do) but there's no way anyone can put either of them above Federer.
     
  43. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Tier 1

    I don't think there can be any justification to placing Federer in Tier 2.

    Tilden, Gonzales, Rosewall, Laver, Borg, Sampras would join Federer in Tier 1. As to what order they go in tier one could be debated....but the fact is - that is the top tier.

    Yes - Budge, Vines, Connors, Agassi etc belong amongst the greatest players - but they are tier 2.
     
  44. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    This is where Sampras and Borg get slighted unfairly because they are in the open era. I agree they are below Federer because the numbers speak for themselves. However, Federer's accomplishments hold the standard against them but not for Laver, Rosewall, Hoad, etc. because they are in the pre-open era. As Federer continue to win since 2009, Sampras/Borg continue to drift behind but Laver and company stay at fix position. This is wrong. Sampras and Borg are always in the same tier as Laver. If Federer is above Sampras/Borg, then he should be above Laver and company. It's not fair to bump Laver up to another level but Sampras/Borg have to take a hit, all because of Roger.

    I believe we should leave Federer out, and debate which player is the second greatest of all time between Laver, Sampras, Borg, Hoad, Rosewall, Tilden, etc.
     
  45. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Because tennis was so different 40/50 years ago and it's hard to compare, you could say {Sampras, Borg} = {Laver, Pancho, Tilden, Rosewall, etc}. You're selling Sampras/Borg short because Roger is ahead of them.
     
  46. Netspirit

    Netspirit Hall of Fame

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    This. Especially since Federer does not yet belong to the "Former Pro Player Talk" forum. His career is still not over (however, some people will never "forgive" him not winning 2 calendar-year Grand Slams, regardless of how much else he did, or will do).
     
  47. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Laver has said that with wood racquets he would take his chances against anybody.
     
  48. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    'Course he would. On Clay, I'd take Nadal's chances over anybody, doesn't make him the GOAT, does it? Conditionally being the best doesn't make one THE best. Laver realizes that, so he calls Federer the GOAT.
     
  49. ARFED

    ARFED Semi-Pro

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    1-Federer
    2-Laver
    3-Gonzalez
    4-Sampras
    5-Borg
    6-Nadal
    7-Tilden
    8-Lendl
    9-Rosewall
    10-Connors

    That is my all time personal rank and as you can see i am not selling them short at all (they are both in my top 5). However, i think that they are a league below the top 3
     
  50. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    Ok.. cmon. Be reasonable. Federer dominated USO, Wimbledon, and was in 4 straight FO finals. Also tied for open era AO titles. He has more credentials at the majors than Borg. Borg's biggest claim is the channel slam, but he never even came close to the 10 straight finals Federer has, nor the titles overall, nor the win streaks. Only at Wimbledon is Borg in Fed's league for dominance, both winning 5 titles and reaching a 6th consecutive final. Difference is, Fed won it again the following year, then two years later.

    I'll give Borg his due at the French, but you can't discount the AO just because he didn't play it. Additionally, 4 finals is not close to 5 straight titles and a 6th final. I'm sorry, but that matches Borg's haul at the FO.

    So even taking the AO out, Federer's credentials at the remaining 3 majors equal or surpass Borg's. Handicapping Federer still leaves him with all 3 remaining majors: 13 majors total, 7 Wimbledons, 5 USO's, 1 FO to Borg's 11 titles overall, 5 Wimbledons, 6 FO's. Federer made a total of 18 final appearances to Borg's 15, but crucially won at least one final at all events.. Plus, he won the Wimbledon-USO double 4 times in a row.

    Not to mention winning all 3 of the 'countable' majors...compared to Borg's two.

    And let's not play the Age thing. Borg was already starting to lose ground at the majors when he retired. Could he have won more? Sure, but we'll never know, so let's not go assigning him phantom wins that never happened. I could do the same about Nadal denying Federer from breaking into the 20+ majors territory... It's pointless conjecture.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012

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