[GOAT] Which kind of domination?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Nickognito, Nov 19, 2007.

  1. Nickognito

    Nickognito Rookie

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    Hi everyone. I'm a new user and I recently found this very interesting forum with great analysis for the GOAT debate.

    I would like to congrat everyone, but most of all Wuornos and his great rankings.
    I would like to ask him if he could kindly share his enormous statisical material with results, DOT and ELO rankigs, etc. It would be great.

    I would like to ask him aso what he thinks about a bayesian elo rating for tennis (http://remi.coulom.free.fr/Bayesian-Elo/#links)

    I think that we expect the greater player of the time to have different kind of domination:
    - domination in a single match
    - domination in one year
    - domination in few years
    - domination in a decade or more

    The GOAT in not necessarily the best player in each category, but I think he has to be of the best.

    Vines, or Hoad are between the best in the single match, but not for years.
    McEnroe is great in the single match , in one year, and maybe in the span of five years, but we think that his career is too short at this level.
    Lendl was dominating for one year and for a span of three years like few players did, and he was competitive at a very high levale for more than a decade, but maybe he's not as competitive in the single match, where he's maybe not better than McEnroe, Becker or even Edberg and Wilander.

    So, I think that the question 'it's better to dominate five years and retire or to win slams for 15 years without such domination?' is incorrect.
    The GOAT must be one of the best in each category, and a ranking must have a 'value' for each category.
    So maybe the DOT ratings are a wonderful way to let us know a kind of domination of a player (maybe the more important), bit i think that it has to be integrated with other different kind of ratings.

    What do you think about it?

    Just to tell something about me: I'm italian, i'm debating this kind of questions for years in an italian forum, and so it's very intersting to be here. I subjectively think that Pancho Gonzales is maybe the GOAT, even if I am a Pete Sampras fan.

    Regards,

    Cristiano
     
    #1
  2. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    Hi Cristiano, and welcome to the forum,

    Glad you are interested in the GOAT debate as well! If there were interesting elements of discussion on your italian forum that you think is worth translating for us, you are more than welcome, by the way!

    I think your idea is interesting, but mostly adapted for the Open Era...
    You mention Vines or Hoad as great one-match players; the problem is, this reputation comes mainly from a few quotes from other greats (Tilden about Vines, Rosewall or Laver about Hoad). I'm not ready to trust quotes by people who had friendly relationships with the players involved. I mean I think they were *probably* among the very greatest when they were 'on', but without more objective proof, I won't base any rankings on this... The only thing that could provide, if not proof, material for discussion is video, and pre-Open era players' clips are too rare for this.
    About one-year greatness, like you I think that Wuornos' rankings are interesting, but as far as I know, his database only goes so far as 1968 or so, and is not totally complete before 1971. But such a complete database of every matches played is necessary to assert a player's one-year performance in a precise way, and it can't be properly done before the 70's.

    As I'm interested in global, 1877-2007, rankings for tennis, I have to conclude that the only criteria we can rely on are the most basic: 'True Majors' won, and year-end ranking (it might not be possible to objectively compare performances in different years, but it is for two players from the same year). Of course, if someone could provide me a book with a list of every tennis match played from 1877 (more like some hundred books then!), I'd be happy to get along with the ELO or DOT rankings, but it's unfortunately not possible.
    That's why, I think, the only way to compare players from different eras is to look at their whole career, and nothing else...

    Jonathan
     
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  3. Nickognito

    Nickognito Rookie

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    Good point, John. Wuornos seems to be more interested in a statistical objective-only kind of debate: I think we cannot do this for pre-open tennis, and he's right to do it only for open tennis.

    I think that to consider just majors and years at number one is a too poor statistic for this question. It's a good one, but it's too poor. The problem is that maybe the three best players of all times played in the pro-tennis era, and one of the first five, maybe, in a non-competitive era. So I think i'ts impossible to find stats who tell us who is the GOAT. It's maybe possible to do it with subjective considerations based upon different kinds of objective stats.

    Anyway, I think the the best player of the year 2007 is the player who has the best results in matches between the first 100-130 players of 2007.
    And so i think that the GOAT is the player who would have the best results with the first 100-130 players of all times. So I believe that head-to-heads with other players (>130 all times) do not count for our purpose.

    Challengers and futures are non important for the first positions of 2007 ranking.
    So I think that only grand slam tournaments (and maybe master series or similar) are important in this debate.

    I think that Dot Rankins or Elo rankings are wonderful because they assign a minimum value to wins over bad players.

    With some imagination, we can maybe 'build' some imaginary slam for the pro-tennis era, based upon pros results before becoming pro, and head-to-heads between them. Jack Kramer 'imagined' the winners of this hypothetical slams in his book 'The Game'.

    Anyway, it would be a subjective way to solve the question, obviously.

    regards

    cristiano
     
    #3
  4. noeledmonds

    noeledmonds Professional

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    I think it is important to emphasise the importantce of versitility along with dominance. This is what, in my subjective opinion, makes Laver stand out from the rest as the greatest.

    Sampras, Federer, McEnroe, Tilden* and Connors** have failed to win the French Open. Borg failed to win the US Open. Lendl and Rosewall*** failed to win Wimbledon. Gonzales failed to win the French Open or the French Pro equivalent.

    *Tilden rarely made the journey to play the French Open and he did win the French Pro in 1934
    ** Connors was banned from the French Open during his best years
    *** Rosewall played the best part of his career unable to play Wimbledon due to the pro/amateur divide

    Then if we look at the dominance of the players who achieved the Career Grand Slam, Laver his well above the rest. Perry was dominant but ultimately less so than his rival Budge. Budge himself was very dominant, but only for a short period of a few years. Emerson was dominant, but mainly due to the fact he remained amateur when his supiror contemperies were professional. Agassi had an up and down career and was inconsistant throughout.

    I believe that Tilden is the one who comes cloeset to Laver. Tilden's dominance was supiror to Laver. Tilden maintained a winning percentage of over 90% for over 7 years. However Laver was dominant across all four surfaces for nearly as long and of course achieved the Grand Slam twice and the Pro Slam once. Many foget that Laver was past his best when he won his final Grand Slam in 1969.
     
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  5. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    He was only banned from the French one year('74). The other years he skipped it('75-'78) because he was pissed off at having been banned in '74.
     
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  6. Nickognito

    Nickognito Rookie

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    I agree with you, Noel, and this is the main reason for not judging 'my' Sampras the best ever.

    Anyway, Laver has never won with the best, young Rosewall on Clay, Federer should have won without Nadal (but maybe not, with a Kuerten or Courier too) and so opponents are very important.

    For Kramer it was different. In the '40 and early '50, american players do not care of playing on clay. And for Tilden too (Tilden anyway won the French later in his career). So the importance of the 4 slam has never be the same. And surfaces are not always the same too. Wimbledon grass now is different, for example.

    That's another problem. Imagine an alltime 4 grand slam tournaments with the best 128 players ever, and imagine Sampras or Kramer winning 3 of 4 slam and losing in the 1st round in the French: who will be the best, at the end of the imaginary year?.

    Do you think that versality is important for an one-year ranking? And why for an all.time ranking do you think it's more important?

    So, I agree that versality is important, but maybe not so important like you say..

    Regards,

    c.
     
    #6
  7. Wuornos

    Wuornos Professional

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    First of all I would like to thank you for your kind words Cristiano.

    I'm not sure what data you would like to see from me in relation to DOT or Elo ratings, but if you let me know I'll see what I can do.

    The article on Bayesian Elo is very interesting. One of the main assumptions of the ELO system, and it is a flawed assumption, is that the standard deviation in the level of performance from match to match is 200 points and this is taken for all players. Of course this is not true and some players may have a SD of 100 and others 300. I think the Bayesan system goes some way to rectifying this. I have no doubts that this system is superior, but I have two concerns that that are not really concerned with the accuracy.

    1. I have worked as a statistician for many years and one thing that occurs over and over again and where the layman often loses his way, is the question of fitness for purpose and gold plating. By this I mean much statistical modelling can be subjected to the law of diminishing return. You can add in an additional attribute to an analysis carry out all the work to incorporate this element and the impact on the output is minimal. You often find you can get to the 80% accuracy mark by using 20% of the data available and with a relatively simplified system. I would therefore worry that the Bayesian System may yield marginally better results but at what cost?

    2. While being independent and free from human opinion and iterference both ELO and Bayesian Rating systems struggle with inactivity. What do you do when a player becomes inactive. E.g. Amelie Mauresmo at the moment. How long do you include them in the rankings? Even worse, what do yoiu do when they return after a year out like Lindsay Davenport. Do you allow her to keep the same rating, surely her quality of play will have declined during the inactivity etc.

    You are absolutely correct that domination varies with time period. Single match domination is not the same as longer term. The ability to hand a double or triple doughnut to another player is talking about a completely different subject to being able to dominate by winning against a large number of opponents over a set period of time.

    For me the sample of a single match is to small and rather meaningless. I seem to recall someone posting on this site previously regarding a perfect match, i.e 6-0 6-0 and all 12 games being love game. For me this probably says more about the quality of opposition than it does about the quality of the winner.

    Single year dominance is an altogether different matter. For me this period is again to small to be completely meaningful. If you just forget about the number of matches and how many wins and just think about the number of losses, the numbers is very small when considering top players within a single year. When comparing two players you can be talking about one who lost 4 matches in a year compared with one who lost 5 and this diffference is enough to effect the overall strike rate and consider one player superior.

    A few years. This for me is the most significant factor. It is enough evidence for luck to have been largely eliminated while not being so long as it favours players with only long careers.

    Domination over more than 10 years. I don't really call this domination. I tend to refer to it as career achievement. I don't like this as it undervalues players who have had a short career at the top. E.g Monica Seles. However players with along career have had the opportunity to dominate for shorter periods. Failure to do this means to me that they have had a long time nigglking away at the a level just short of the top of the game. Just my view.

    For me the best indicator of standard of play or greatness is always going to be dominance over a few years with adjustments for quality of opposition and Tournamentvent. Hence DOT Ratings.

    Take care and keep posting.

    Tim
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2007
    #7
  8. Nickognito

    Nickognito Rookie

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    Thank you Tim.

    I agree with you with the Dot, but i think that great results like winning a slam in years of no-domination need to be included in some way in the ranking.

    About the single-match-performances, I think there's no a statistical way of consider it. Nevertheless, I think it's quite strange if we think that the 'Greater Player of All TImes' , at his best, would be beaten by 20 other players at their best, for example.

    About the data I'd like you see, I mean, I have all data of the open tennis tournaments, but I don't have any excel, or access file with them, and If i can have them from you it would be great. Maybe you have dot rankings for every year too, or , to speak honestly, I would like to receive any statistical work you can share. I know that maybe i'm asking too much, so in that case, don't care. Anyway I can assure you that it's just a personal interest, and that I would not use any of your statistics without your authorization. If you are interested , you can contact me by email, If not, it doesn't matter.

    Regards,

    c.
     
    #8
  9. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    I agree with you that it is poor statistic, but my point is precisely that you might generate good statistic for the Open Era because we have a wealth of data, but you can't do any statistics at all for the previous period. This is due to:
    1. The obvious lack of data.
    2. The constant change in what people call greatness.

    Let me elaborate on that last point. Using data kindly provided to me by Karoly Mazak, I computed a list of players per number of titles won. That would seem like a very useful stat...unfortunately it's not! The number of events a player could play has changed too much with time for us to draw any conclusion...While Trabert was winning 15+ events on the 52-weeks amateur circuit, Gonzales won only a handful simply because there were too few pro events, for example. Gonzales won 92 events by my count, and Laver approximately twice more, but can we deduce anything regarding their level of play from this fact?
    Similarly, you could argue that number of tournaments won is not that important, that win/loss record is more of a useful stat...That would be wrong too: head-to-head might have been significant in the 50s when 2-men or 4-men tours were a norm, but not at all in the mid and late 60s, when even dominant players suffered many defeats, simply because they played every event they could (see Laver's 1967). They didn't 'take care' of their W/L record as much as Federer does, or as Mac or Lendl did when the ATP rankings were based on it.
    'Majors' won and year-end rankings are the only two factors I could think of that were constantly considered as indicating greatness.

    That's what I was trying to do for some time, though it doesn't require 'imagination', but rather many documents, and trying to have an objective point of view, though I totally admit it's impossible not to have much subjectivity in such a study.

    In case it is of interest for you, I will copy my *current* list in the next post. It's NOT an 'official' list I try to show here, just my point of view, I totally understand if many of you disagree on many details in it, I just copy it to show that the whole approach is at least sensible.
    There are 4 'Majors' for all years (except the war years and 1877-1880), and at least one major on clay or a slow surface from 1899 on (I chose this date because it is the first time an event on clay was seriously considered as an international tournament, when the 'Championships of Europe' were organized in Bad Homburg).
     
    #9
  10. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    (Sorry about the terrible layout, I had to copy this from MS Word directly, and it didn't keep any of my page settings...)

    2007
    AO Federer (Gonzalez)
    RG Nadal (Federer)
    Wim Federer (Nadal)
    USO Federer (Djokovic)

    2006
    AO Federer (Baghdatis)
    RG Nadal (Federer)
    Wim Federer (Nadal)
    USO Federer (Roddick)

    2005
    AO Safin (Hewitt)
    RG Nadal (Puerta)
    Wim Federer (Roddick)
    USO Federer (Agassi)

    2004
    AO Federer (Safin)
    RG Gaudio (Coria)
    Wim Federer (Roddick)
    USO Federer (Hewitt)

    2003
    AO Agassi (Schuettler)
    RG Ferrero (Verkerk)
    Wim Federer (Philippoussis)
    USO Roddick (Ferrero)

    2002
    AO Johansson (Safin)
    RG Costa (Ferrero)
    Wim Hewitt (Nalbandian)
    USO Sampras (Agassi)

    2001
    AO Agassi (Clément)
    RG Kuerten (Corretja)
    Wim Ivanisevic (Rafter)
    USO Hewitt (Sampras)

    2000
    AO Agassi (Kafelnikov)
    RG Kuerten (Norman)
    Wim Sampras (Rafter)
    USO Safin (Sampras)

    1999
    AO Kafelnikov (Enqvist)
    RG Agassi (Medvedev)
    Wim Sampras (Agassi)
    USO Agassi (Martin)

    1998
    AO Korda (Rios)
    RG Moya (Corretja)
    Wim Sampras (Ivanisevic)
    USO Rafter (Philippoussis)

    1997
    AO Sampras (Moya)
    RG Kuerten (Bruguera)
    Wim Sampras (Pioline)
    USO Rafter (Rusedski)

    1996
    AO Becker (Chang)
    RG Kafelnikov (Stich)
    Wim Krajicek (Washington)
    USO Sampras (Chang)

    1995
    AO Agassi (Sampras)
    RG Muster (Chang)
    Wim Sampras (Becker)
    USO Sampras (Agassi)

    1994
    AO Sampras (Martin)
    RG Bruguera (Berasategui)
    Wim Sampras (Ivanisevic)
    USO Agassi (Stich)

    1993
    AO Courier (Edberg)
    RG Bruguera (Courier)
    Wim Sampras (Courier)
    USO Sampras (Pioline)

    1992
    AO Courier (Edberg)
    RG Courier (Korda)
    Wim Agassi (Ivanisevic)
    USO Edberg (Sampras)

    1991
    AO Becker (Lendl)
    RG Courier (Agassi)
    Wim Stich (Becker)
    USO Edberg (Courier)

    1990
    AO Lendl (Edberg)
    RG Gomez (Agassi)
    Wim Edberg (Becker)
    USO Sampras (Agassi)

    1989
    AO Lendl (Mecir)
    RG Chang (Edberg)
    Wim Becker (Edberg)
    USO Becker (Lendl)

    1988
    AO Wilander (Cash)
    RG Wilander (Leconte)
    Wim Edberg (Becker)
    USO Wilander (Lendl)

    1987
    AO Edberg (Cash)
    RG Lendl (Wilander)
    Wim Cash (Lendl)
    USO Lendl (Wilander)

    1986
    RG Lendl (Pernfors)
    Wim Becker (Lendl)
    USO Lendl (Mecir)
    Boca West Lendl (Wilander)

    1985
    AO Edberg (Wilander)
    RG Wilander (Lendl)
    Wim Becker (Curren)
    USO Lendl (McEnroe)

    1984
    AO Wilander (Curren)
    RG Lendl (McEnroe)
    Wim McEnroe (Connors)
    USO McEnroe (Lendl)

    1983
    AO Wilander (Lendl)
    RG Noah (Wilander)
    Wim McEnroe (Lewis)
    USO Connors (Lendl)

    1982
    RG Wilander (Vilas)
    Wim Connors (McEnroe)
    USO Connors (Lendl)
    Masters Lendl (McEnroe)

    1981
    RG Borg (Lendl)
    Wim McEnroe (Borg)
    USO McEnroe (Borg)
    Masters Lendl (Gerulaitis)

    1980
    RG Borg (Gerulaitis)
    Wim Borg (McEnroe)
    USO McEnroe (Borg)
    Masters Borg (Lendl)

    1979
    RG Borg (Pecci)
    Wim Borg (Tanner)
    USO McEnroe (Gerulaitis)
    Masters Borg (Gerulaitis)

    1978
    Philadelphia Connors (Tanner)
    RG Borg (Vilas)
    Wim Borg (Connors)
    USO Connors (Borg)

    1977
    RG Vilas (Gottfried)
    Wim Borg (Connors)
    USO Vilas (Connors)
    Masters Connors (Borg)

    1976
    Philadelphia Connors (Borg)
    RG Panatta (Solomon)
    Wim Borg (Nastase)
    USO Connors (Borg)

    1975
    RG Borg (Vilas)
    Wim Ashe (Connors)
    USO Orantes (Connors)
    Masters Nastase (Borg)

    1974
    WCT Finals Newcombe (Borg)
    RG Borg (Orantes)
    Wim Connors (Rosewall)
    USO Connors (Rosewall)

    1973
    WCT Finals Smith (Ashe)
    RG Nastase (Pilic)
    USO Newcombe (Kodes)
    Masters Nastase (Okker)

    1972
    WCT Finals Rosewall (Laver)
    RG Gimeno (Proisy)
    PSW Los Angeles Smith (Tanner)
    USO Nastase (Ashe)

    1971
    AO Rosewall (Ashe)
    Rome Laver (Kodes)
    Wim Newcombe (Smith)
    USO Smith (Kodes)

    1970
    Sydney Laver (Rosewall)
    Wim Newcombe (Rosewall)
    USO Rosewall (Roche)
    Barcelone Santana (Laver)

    1969
    AO Laver (Gimeno)
    RG Laver (Rosewall)
    Wim Laver (Newcombe)
    USO Laver (Roche)

    1968
    RG Rosewall (Laver)
    Wimbledon Laver (Roche)
    PSW Los Angeles Laver (Rosewall)
    USO Ashe (Okker)

    1967
    Wembley Laver (Rosewall)
    World Pro Laver (Rosewall)
    Wimbledon Pro Laver (Rosewall)
    US Pro Laver (Gimeno)

    1966
    Wembley Laver (Rosewall)
    Barcelona Gimeno (Rosewall)
    New York MSG Pro Rosewall (Laver)
    US Pro Laver (Rosewall)

    1965
    French Pro Rosewall (Laver)
    Milan Pro Gimeno (Rosewall)
    Wembley Laver (Gimeno)
    US Pro Rosewall (Laver)

    1964
    Noordwijk Pro Gimeno (Rosewall)
    French Pro Rosewall (Laver)
    Wembley Laver (Rosewall)
    US Pro Laver (Gonzales)

    1963
    French Pro Rosewall (Laver)
    Wembley Rosewall (Hoad)
    US Pro Rosewall (Laver)
    Italian Pro Rosewall (Laver)

    1962
    French Pro Rosewall (Gimeno)
    Wembley Rosewall (Hoad)
    Stockholm Pro Rosewall (Gimeno)
    Wimbledon Laver (Mulligan)

    1961
    Geneva Pro Gonzales (Rosewall)
    Copenhagen Pro Gonzales (Olmedo)
    French Pro Rosewall (Gonzales)
    Wembley Rosewall (Hoad)

    1960
    Victorian Pro Hoad (Rosewall)
    World Cham’p Tour Gonzales (Rosewall)
    French Pro Rosewall (Hoad)
    Wembley Rosewall (Segura)

    1959
    Melbourne Pro Sedgman (Gonzales)
    French Pro Trabert (Sedgman)
    Los Angeles Pro RR Gonzales (Hoad)
    Tourn. Of Champ. Hoad (Gonzales)

    1958
    Australian Pro Sedgman (Trabert)
    French Pro Rosewall (Hoad)
    Wembley Sedgman (Trabert)
    Tourn. Of Champ. Gonzales (Rosewall)

    1957
    Australian Pro Segura (Sedgman)
    Wembley Rosewall (Segura)
    Tourn. Of Champ. Gonzales (Sedgman)
    RG Davidson (Flam)

    1956
    French Pro Trabert (Gonzales)
    Wembley Gonzales (Sedgman)
    Tourn. Of Champ. Gonzales (Sedgman)
    Wimbledon Hoad (Rosewall)

    1955
    US Pro Gonzales (Segura)
    US Pro Hard Court Gonzales (Segura)
    Scarborough Pro Gonzales (Segura)
    RG Trabert (Davidson)

    1954
    Australian Pro Sedgman (Segura)
    US Pro Gonzales (Sedgman)
    US 4-men Tour Gonzales (Segura)
    Roland Garros Trabert (Larsen)

    1953
    New York Indoor Kramer (Sedgman)
    Scarborough Pro Segura (Sedgman)
    Wembley Sedgman (Gonzales)
    Paris Pro Sedgman (Gonzales)

    1952
    Phil. Indoor Pro Gonzales (Segura)
    Wembley Gonzales (Kramer)
    US Pro Segura (Gonzales)
    Wimbledon Sedgman (Drobny)

    1951
    Phil. Indoor Pro Kramer (Gonzales)
    Berlin Pro Segura (Earn)
    Wembley Gonzales (Segura)
    US Pro Segura (Gonzales)

    1950
    Phil. Indoor Pro Gonzales (Kramer)
    Wembley Gonzales (Van Horn)
    Paris Pro Indoors Segura (Kramer)
    US Pro Segura (Kovacs)

    1949
    Scarborough Kramer (Budge)
    Wembley Kramer (Riggs)
    Barcelona Kramer (Segura)
    Forest Hills Gonzales (Schroeder)

    1948
    Melbourne Pro Kramer (Pails)
    US Claycourt Pro Kovacs (Lufler)
    US Pro Kramer (Riggs)
    Davis Cup Schroeder (Parker)

    1947
    US Indoor Pro Riggs (Budge)
    Buffalo Pro Kovacs (Riggs)
    US Pro Riggs (Budge)
    RG Asboth (Sturgess)

    1946
    Southern Pro Budge (Riggs)
    Miami Beach Van Horn (Kovacs)
    US Pro Riggs (Budge)
    US Pro Hard Court Riggs (Budge)
     
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  11. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    230
    1945
    US Pro Claycourt Van Horn (Nogrady)
    US Pro Hardcourt Riggs (Budge)

    1943
    US Pro Barnes (Nogrady)

    1942
    US Pro Budge (Riggs)

    1941
    US Pro Perry (Skeen)
    Forest Hills RR Perry (Budge)

    1940
    US Pro Budge (Perry)
    US Open Budge (Barnes)

    1939
    Southport Nusslein (Tilden)
    French Pro Budge (Vines)
    Wembley Budge (Nusslein)
    US Pro Vines (Perry)

    1938
    Davis Cup Budge (Bromwich)
    RG Budge (Menzel)
    Wimbledon Budge (Austin)
    Forest Hills Budge (Mako)

    1937
    Davis Cup Budge (Austin)
    RG Henkel (Austin)
    Wimbledon Budge (Von Cramm)
    Forest Hills Budge (Von Cramm)

    1936
    Davis Cup Perry (Quist)
    Roland Garros Von Cramm (Perry)
    Wimbledon Perry (Von Cramm)
    Forest Hills Perry (Budge)

    1935

    Davis Cup Perry (Austin)
    Roland Garros Perry (Von Cramm)
    Wimbledon Perry (Von Cramm)
    Wembley Vines (Tilden)

    1934
    Davis Cup Austin (Perry)
    Roland Garros Von Cramm (Crawford)
    Wimbledon Perry (Crawford)
    Wembley Vines (Tilden)

    1933
    Davis Cup Perry (Cochet)
    Roland Garros Crawford (Cochet)
    Wimbledon Crawford (Vines)
    Forest Hills Perry (Crawford)

    1932
    Davis Cup Borotra (Vines)
    RG Cochet (De Stefani)
    Wimbledon Vines (Austin)
    Forest Hills Vines (Cochet)

    1931
    Davis Cup Cochet (Austin)
    RG Borotra (Boussus)
    Wimbledon Wood (Shields)
    Forest Hills Vines (Lott)

    1930
    Davis Cup Cochet (Tilden)
    Roland Garros Cochet (Tilden)
    Wimbledon Tilden (Allison)
    Forest Hills Doeg (Shields)

    1929
    Davis Cup Cochet (Tilden)
    Roland Garros Lacoste (Borotra)
    Wimbledon Cochet (Borotra)
    Forest Hills Tilden (Hunter)

    1928
    Davis Cup Cochet (Tilden)
    Roland Garros Cochet (Lacoste)
    Wimbledon Lacoste (Cochet)
    Forest Hills Cochet (Hunter)

    1927
    Davis Cup Lacoste (Tilden)
    Roland Garros Lacoste (Tilden)
    Wimbledon Cochet (Borotra)
    Forest Hills Lacoste (Tilden)

    1926
    Davis Cup Johnston (Lacoste)
    Roland Garros Cochet (Lacoste)
    Wimbledon Borotra (Kinsey)
    Forest Hills Lacoste (Borotra)

    1925
    Davis Cup Johnston (Tilden)
    Roland Garros Lacoste (Borotra)
    Wimbledon Lacoste (Borotra)
    Forest Hills Tilden (Johnston)

    1924
    Davis Cup Tilden (Richards)
    Olympics (Paris) Richards (Cochet)
    Wimbledon Borotra (Lacoste)
    Forest Hills Tilden (Johnston)

    1923
    Davis Cup Tilden (Anderson)
    HC World Champ’s Johnston (Washer)
    Wimbledon Johnston (Hunter)
    Forest Hills Tilden (Johnston)

    1922
    Davis Cup Johnston (Tilden)
    HC World Champ’s Cochet (de Gomar)
    Wimbledon Patterson (Lycett)
    Forest Hills Tilden (Johnston)

    1921
    Davis Cup Johnston (Tilden)
    HC World Champ’s Tilden (Washer)
    Wimbledon Tilden (Norton)
    Forest Hills Tilden (Johnston)

    1920
    Davis Cup Johnston (Tilden)
    HC World Champ’s Laurentz (Gobert)
    Wimbledon Tilden (Patterson)
    Forest Hills Tilden (Johnston)

    1919
    Aus. vs USA match Tilden (Johnston)
    US Clay Johnston (Tilden)
    Wimbledon Patterson (Brookes)
    Forest Hills Johnston (Tilden)

    1918
    US Clay Tilden (Garland)

    1917
    Newport Murray (Niles)

    1916
    Newport Williams (Johnston)

    1915
    Newport Johnston (McLoughlin)

    1914
    Davis Cup McLoughlin (Wilding)
    HC World Champ’s Wilding (Salm)
    Wimbledon Brookes (Wilding)
    Newport Williams (McLoughlin)

    1913
    Davis Cup Parke (McLoughlin)
    HC World Champ’s Wilding (Gobert)
    Wimbledon Wilding (McLoughlin)
    Newport McLoughlin (Williams)

    1912
    Davis Cup Parke (Brookes)
    Monte-Carlo Wilding (Moore)
    Wimbledon Wilding (Gore)
    Newport McLoughlin (Johnson)

    1911
    Davis Cup Brookes (Heath)
    Monte-Carlo Wilding (Decugis)
    Wimbledon Wilding (Ropert Barrett)
    Newport Larned (McLoughlin)

    1910
    Monte-Carlo Decugis (Ritchie)
    Wimbledon Wilding (Gore)
    Longwood Bowl Larned (McLoughlin)
    Newport Larned (Bundy)

    1909
    Davis Cup Brookes (Wilding)
    Monte-Carlo Alexander (L Doherty)
    Wimbledon Gore (Ritchie)
    Newport Larned (Clothier)

    1908
    Davis Cup Wright (Wilding)
    Monte-Carlo Wilding (Eaves)
    Wimbledon Gore (Ropert Barrett)
    Newport Larned (Wright)

    1907
    Davis Cup Brookes (Gore)
    Monte-Carlo Ritchie (L Doherty)
    Wimbledon Brookes (Gore)
    Newport Larned (LeRoy)

    1906
    Davis Cup L Doherty (S Smith)
    Monte-Carlo L Doherty (Eaves)
    Wimbledon L Doherty (Riseley)
    Newport Clothier (Wright)

    1905
    Davis Cup L Doherty (S Smith)
    Monte-Carlo L Doherty (Ritchie)
    Wimbledon L Doherty (Brookes)
    Newport Wright (Ward)

    1904
    Davis Cup L Doherty (R Doherty)
    Monte-Carlo R Doherty (Ritchie)
    Wimbledon L Doherty (Riseley)
    Newport Ward (Clothier)

    1903
    Davis Cup L Doherty (R Doherty)
    Monte-Carlo R Doherty (Riseley)
    Wimbledon L Doherty (Riseley)
    Newport L Doherty (Larned)

    1902
    Monte-Carlo R Doherty (Hillyard)
    Irish L Doherty (S Smith)
    Wimbledon L Doherty (A Gore)
    Newport Larned (R Doherty)

    1901
    Champ’s of Europe Decugis
    Irish R Doherty (L Doherty)
    Wimbledon Gore (R Doherty)
    Newport Larned (Wright)

    1900
    Paris Olympics L Doherty (Mahony)
    Irish R Doherty (Gore)
    Wimbledon R Doherty (S Smith)
    Newport Whitman (Larned)

    1899
    Champ’s of Europe Mahony (R Doherty)
    Irish R Doherty (Mahony)
    Wimbledon R Doherty (Gore)
    Newport Whitman (Paret)

    1898
    Irish Mahony (Eaves)
    Northern L Doherty (Hobart)
    Wimbledon R Doherty (L Doherty)
    Newport Whitman (Davis)

    1897
    Irish Eaves (Baddeley)
    Northern Baddeley (R Doherty)
    Wimbledon R Doherty (Mahony)
    Newport Wrenn (Eaves)

    1896
    Irish Baddeley (Mahony)
    Northern Baddeley (Mahony)
    Wimbledon Mahony (Baddeley)
    Newport Wrenn (Hovey)

    1895
    Irish Pim (Eaves)
    Northern Baddeley
    Wimbledon Baddeley (Eaves)
    W Newton Int’l RR Pim (Mahony)

    1894
    Irish Pim (Chaytor)
    Northern Baddeley (Pim)
    Wimbledon Pim (Baddeley)
    Brit. Indoors Mahony

    1893
    Irish Pim (E Renshaw)
    Northern Pim (Baddeley)
    Wimbledon Pim (Baddeley)
    Brit. Indoors Mahony (Meers)

    1892
    Irish E Renshaw (Lewis)
    Northern Pim (Barlow)
    Wimbledon Baddeley (Pim)
    Brit. Indoors Meers (Lewis)

    1891
    Irish Lewis (Pim)
    Northern Pim (Baddeley)
    Wimbledon Baddeley (Pim)
    Brit. Indoors Lewis

    1890
    Irish Lewis (Hamilton)
    Northern Pim (Hamilton)
    Wimbledon Hamilton (W Renshaw)
    Brit. Indoors Lewis

    1889
    Irish Hamilton (E Renshaw)
    Northern Hamilton (Mahony)
    Wimbledon W Renshaw (E Renshaw)
    Brit. Indoors Lewis (Barlow)

    1888
    Irish E Renshaw (Hamilton)
    Northern Hamilton (Grove)
    Wimbledon E Renshaw (Lawford)
    Brit. Indoors Lewis (Meers)

    1887
    Irish E Renshaw (Lawford)
    Northern Grove (Chaytor)
    Wimbledon Lawford (E Renshaw)
    Brit. Indoors Lewis (EL Williams)

    1886
    Irish Lawford (Hamilton)
    Northern Grove (Dwight)
    Wimbledon W Renshaw (Lawford)
    Brit. Indoors EL Williams (Lawford)

    1885
    Irish Lawford (Chatterton)
    Northern Dwight (Stewart)
    Wimbledon W Renshaw (Lawford)
    Brit. Indoors Lawford (Ross)

    1884
    Irish Lawford (E Renshaw)
    Northern Stewart (Wilberforce)
    Wimbledon W Renshaw (Lawford)
    Scottish Gamble (Horn)

    1883
    Irish E Renshaw (W Renshaw)
    Northern Wilberforce (Richardson)
    Wimbledon W Renshaw (E Renshaw)
    Prince’s Champ. Lawford (E Renshaw)

    1882
    Irish W Renshaw (Richardson)
    Northern Richardson (E Renshaw)
    Wimbledon W Renshaw (E Renshaw)
    Prince’s Champ. E Renshaw (Lubbock)

    1881
    Irish W Renshaw (Lawford)
    Northern Richardson (Browne)
    Wimbledon W Renshaw (Hartley)
    Prince’s Champ. W Renshaw (Mulholland)

    1880
    Irish W Renshaw (Goold)
    Northern Richardson (Fairlie)
    Wimbledon Hartley (Lawford)
    Prince’s Champ. Lawford (Lubbock)

    1879
    Irish Goold (Barry)
    Wimbledon Hartley (Goold)
    Cheltenham W Renshaw (Goold)

    1878
    Wimbledon Hadow (S Gore)

    1877
    Wimbledon S Gore (Marshall)
     
    #11
  12. Nickognito

    Nickognito Rookie

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    great! Thank you very much :)

    c.
     
    #12
  13. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,889
    John, thanks so much for posting that. I've been wondering about it since you mentioned it many threads ago. What is the leader board for the 'majors' now? Also do you have a count on 'masters series' like events? I would love to see scores on some of these matches.

    I see you made some changes from the previous thread.

    http://72.29.176.21/showthread.php?t=135592

    imo, W had a much better field that year, & the final(Smith-Nastase) is widely considered one of the best matches of all-time.
     
    #13
  14. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
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    Hi Moose,

    Thanks for the kind words!

    1972 was a difficult year to judge (as I said, it's just my current list, I can still change my mind, and people can have their own take on the question). The first thing is, for this new list I choose to select a clay event every year. '72 was a very poor year 'clay-wise', so that the best tournament of the year was the quite depleted Roland Garros. That leaves us with 3 fast-court tournaments to choose...
    Secondly, 1972 was another year when the WCT pros (Laver, Rosewall, Newcombe, Roche, Ashe, etc.) and the others (Smith, Nastase, Orantes, Gimeno, etc.) were almost all the time separated. Wimbledon was a victim of this: except Smith ('71 runner-up),*none* of the winners or runner-up from 1968-1971 played. We can't say it had a great field then, and it was a non-WCT events (no WCTers admitted).
    The question is: were the fields of the US Open, PSW and WCT Finals better?
    -The US Open had the only great field in this year, period.
    -The PSW had a good, mixed (WCT players and amateurs) field, but some of the greats were not there (Laver & Newcombe).
    -This is why I wanted to select the Dallas WCT, because otherwise there would've been only one event featuring Laver and Newcombe, which seems unfair to their level.

    The last debate is between the PSW and Wimbledon. Though Los Angeles had a better field (Ashe and Rosewall were there), on prestige alone, I admit that Wimbledon could easily replace it...
    I agree the Smith-Nastase final is considered as one of the greatest, but I try to think more of how significant the tournaments seemed a priori, before actual play takes place. A slam is not a slam because it features great matches, but because it involves great players who come and play due to the reputation of the tournament. Wimbledon '02 or Roland Garros '03 were very boring events, but they are still slams...

    * * *

    The current leader-board: (10+ only)

    Rosewall 21
    Gonzales 19
    Laver 18
    L Doherty 15
    Tilden 15
    Sampras 14
    Budge 13
    Borg 13
    W Renshaw 12
    Cochet 12
    Federer* 12
    Perry 11
    Lendl 11
    Pim 10
    R Doherty 10
    Johnston 10
    Connors 10


    About a similar 'Masters-Series' list, I have one as well, except for diverse reasons, I worked on a 'Super-14' rather than 'Super-9' basis, which inflates the results of current players too. I think this list is informative, but not nearly as useful as the Majors list, because the best often did not have enough opportunity to play them. Today, Federer plays in a dozen valuable events apart the Slams. In the late pro years ('64-'67), the pro tour had much developed, and Laver had many opportunities too (10 out of 14 events I selected for these years are pro events). But, for instance, for the 50s, the 40s, etc. I could not select more than a handful of pro events,sometimes none...The rest were amateur events.
    So of course the list is biased towards the players who *could* play in events. I think such bias almost doesn't exist with the Majors list.

    (More clearly maybe with an example: in 1954-1955, Gonzales was really dominant. In my major list, he won 5 majors during these 2 years, which seems coherent with modern dominance standards (Federer, etc.). During the same amount of time, he won 1 'masters-series' events, even if he was almost undefeated in 1955. That seems incoherent with our standards, if Gonzales had played in 14 'masters-series', he would have won a lot, lot more...)

    Anyway, here is the 'Masters-Series' leaderboard for those interested (but don't forget the 'disclaimer' above! :)). If some are interested, I could send more details or a whole list...

    Laver 42
    Tilden 38
    Rosewall 36
    McEnroe 35
    Lendl 33
    Ritchie 26
    Connors 26
    Gonzales 25
    Wilding 25
    Becker 24
    L Doherty 24
    Federer 22
    Borotra 21
    Agassi 21
    Emerson 21
    Borg 21
    Sampras 21


    Good night!
    Jonathan
     
    #14
  15. FedForGOAT

    FedForGOAT Professional

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2007
    Messages:
    921
    Tim,

    I really liked your explanation for why domination over a time period of a few years is the most meaningful. I was wondering however what you'd have to say about McEnroe. he completely dominated in 84', but not as much in other years. how would you rank him using the DOt system? how would you, subjectively, based on pure opinion, rate him? I think that based on pure potential, he is one of the top, if not the verry best. but he underachieved, IMO, and that hurt his rating. How would you rate him on the list of all-time greats?
     
    #15
  16. Nickognito

    Nickognito Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2007
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    Location:
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    without the doubles, I suppose :D

    c.
     
    #16
  17. Steve132

    Steve132 Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    840
    Tim: Excellent post of usual.

    In general when assessing dominance I tend to follow the baseball sabermetrician Bill James, who basically says that you can assess greatness in two ways - by looking at a player's peak performance and by examining his or her career achievement. Peak performance refers to the player's best few years. For tennis players I think this would be a period of about 3 consecutive years. One year is not enough, since a player can have a season in which everything goes right. Five years would probably be a bit too long, since in the Open era to date no male player has been great (as opposed to very good) for five consecutive years. Federer might become the exception if he duplicates his results of the past four years in 2008.

    Career achievement includes everything that a player accomplishes during his or her career. Many rating schemes focus solely on career achievement, since they simply count the number of Slams and year-end No. 1 rankings that a player accumulated during his or her career. This information is vital, because if player A is great for 10 years and B maintains the SAME level of excellence for three years we would want to say that A is a greater player than B. It's not enough, however, because a significant element in evaluating greatness is determining how dominant the player was at his or her very best.

    James does not have any simple formula for combining peak performance and career achievement. I don't really have one to suggest either, but I would maintain that a player assessment formula has to take both features into consideration.

    Many fans like to ask whether player A could beat player B if both were at their best. This question is much more complex that it initially appears, and can probably only be answered satisfactorily for close contemporaries. For one thing, you would need to choose the surface. For another, you would have to consider matchup effects, e.g Nadal is a bad matchup for Federer but a good one for Blake, who holds a 3-0 head to head advantage against Nadal but has never beaten Federer.

    You would probably need to stage three round robin competitions - say, at Roland Garros, Wimbledon and the U.S Open - between contemporaries in order to address these complications. Even then it would not make much sense to ask whether Federer at his best would beat Laver at his best. The game has simply changed too much over the past 40 years, and all we can do is compare their achievements.

    To sum up: this post probably contains more questions than answers, but I hope that these questions are at least some of those to be addressed in order to complete player evaluations.
     
    #17
  18. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2007
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    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Great stuff, Sgt. John. I'm going to save that list in notepad.

    Great attention to detail. I can see you've put some time and research into this (no Wimbledon in '73, for example).

    Please...
     
    #18
  19. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,366
    Great List, Sgt John. There are some minor questions and considerations about the surface status. I think, you have tried to integrate clay court events in the rating. In 1963, the Rome event was most probably an indoor event, because it was played in late September/ begin October 1963 after the French Pro, which was also played indoors. The best and most significant pro clay event in 1963 was imo Kitzbühel or Nordwijk played in July and August that year. In 1965, the US pro indoor was imo the most prominent pro event, next to the pro majors, and in 1970 the Barcelona event, played in october in the middle of the indoor season, was less significant than the South west Pacific event at LA, or for a clay court event, the Louisville event in August, which had a better field.
    I will remark some other disputable things in the future. Its not a general critique, but i put on some considerations in a very difficult data field, which i know myself too well. I appreciate the manner of research very much.
     
    #19
  20. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
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    Hi urban,
    Thank you very much for your remarks!

    -I can't say I'm 100% sure about the Italian Pro... Apparently from what I've read in books or from discussions with other people, most of European continental tennis was on clay until the 70s, with some notable exceptions such as Paris indoors arena or Cannes' Palais des Sports. It's pretty sunny in Rome at the beginning of fall, and there is already a very famous tennis facility so I assumed it was played on clay.
    Plus, it was the first year the French Pro was played indoors. That's only guessing, but I thought the pros might have seen the sunnier Rome as a replacement for Paris as a great fall clay event... But again, I could be wrong. That's one of the weak points of my list, and I just have to keep looking for more documents...I will ask the question on wikipedia, as there are knowledgeable people on the forum out there who seem to own many magazines and books from this era.
    I asked the same question about Geneva, but they couldn't confirm me anything. It was a great tournament, and I thought about it for my clay event, but I know there is a big sports indoor arena in Geneva (and it rains more than in Rome :) ), so I thought it was too risky to assume it was on a slow surface.

    -the US Pro indor was indeed a huge event in 1965, just as in 1964 by the way, but I had to select a clay event apart from the 3 pro majors (you see this clay business is quite a strong constraint as it forces us to select less significant tournaments only based on their surfaces. That's a choice I made but my former list without this constraint can also be considered, for people who don't think too much of surface as a decisive factor...)
    City of Milan Pro is one of the only tournaments of the year that I could assume was on clay (for roughly the same reasons as Rome). It's a small 4-men event, but Gimeno won it by beating Laver and Rosewall, so though I don't like these a posteriori reasonings, I think Gimeno 'earned' this Major.

    -1970 was a year when 'Open Tennis' didn't seem like much of a reality anymore. No WCT Pro took part in Roland Garros. Sure the Louisville event featured Newcombe, one of the great player that year, as well as former RG winners Roche, Emerson and Stolle, who were not in Barcelona.
    But:
    -Barcelona was a 'mixed' event with WCT Pros as well as independents and amateurs. There were the last three years' Roland Garros winners and runner-up: Laver, Rosewall, Kodes and Franulovic, as well as Gimeno and Orantes, other great clay-courters. It would seem unfair to select an event featuring only players banned from RG, instead of one that gave those who did well in Paris a chance to prove themselves against the very best.
    -Barcelona was a best-of-five, 64-players draw, as opposed to Louisville, best-of-three, 16-men event...Barcelone really seemed like the 'unoffical clay major' that year, just as Sydney was the unofficial Australian Open.


    Thanks, and don't hesitate to make other remarks...
    Jonathan
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2007
    #20
  21. Andres

    Andres G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
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    12,540
    Location:
    Mar del Plata, Argentina
    Fiorentino, eh Cristiano? :D
    Io sono Lucchese :)
     
    #21
  22. Nickognito

    Nickognito Rookie

    Joined:
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    :)

    Fiorentino, sì.
    I'm sorry but I'm too young to remember the surface of pro italian tournaments. But maybe I can ask and let you know later.

    c.
     
    #22
  23. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
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    Sgt. John, i took part in some of these mentioned internet disussions, so i am quite familiar with this questions of surface, and i wrote incidentally the sentence you have cited. Yes, in the summer most pro events in Continental Europe were on clay, because the pros played in clubs. For September is gets more difficult. I saw a film about the pro circuit of 1965 lately, in France, in September 1965, at the INA webside, and the pros played almost entirely indoors on linoleum. Rome and Milan had indoor facilities, and the events were played mostly late in the year. Milan hosted a indoor event in 1961, won by Gonzales, and a WCT event indoors in 1971, so i assume, these were indoor events.
    For Geneva, some months ago,i came across an internet seller, who sold a programm of the Geneva pro event of 1961, and it was played at the Geneva Tennis Club in July/ August, almost certainly on clay. This kind of finds shows the difficulty for proper research, because McCauley, the main source, has no remarks on clay or hard, and in most English publications, they don't differenciate between the two, they call both hard court. The BHC British Hard Court at Bournemouth definitely was on clay.
    The problem i have with Barcelona in 1970 is, that is was played right in the middle of the indoor season in October. Wembley, Paris, Stockholm were all played before or after, and were all regarded as more important at that time. Barcelona in 1966, even played late in the year, was definitely a big win for Gimeno, maybe the biggest win of his career, as he wrote later himself. If it was more important than Forest Hills for example, is difficult to say.
    Overall, in 1962 Rosewall was the best pro clay player (due to his win at RG pro). In 1963 Laver, who won 2 European clay events, Gimeno (won Geneva) and then thridly Rosewall had the best clay records among the pros, in 1964 Laver (won Geneva) and Gimeno (won Nordwijk) had probably the best record, in 1966 Gimeno was probably the Nr. 1 pro player (for his win at Barcelona). In 1965 and 1967 its quite impossible to determine a pro clay champion, because there were no important recognizable clay events. In the US, maybe Miami and Houston, later Louisville had clay pro events.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2007
    #23
  24. Nickognito

    Nickognito Rookie

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    Wuornos,

    I read in anothe thread that you maybe wish to publish a book with some of your stats.

    So maybe I understand why you didn't answer about sharing all your work. I'm obviously intended to buy your book and i don't want to use yous staff to gain money. Anway I would understand your possibile perplexities. But I think that at least database with tournaments results, in excel or access files, would be very useful for me and i think other users, also without other statistics included. It would be a great favour, a favour that deserves to pay for it, just in case :)

    Sorry for this 'kind of personal' post, but i think that maybe this is a matter of interest for all users who wish to make their own stats without maybe the time of compiling such an immense database :)

    Regards,

    c.
     
    #24
  25. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Dec 27, 2005
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    7,889
    Nice to learn more about Gimeno, who I had thought was one of the weaker slam winners of the Open Era(due to lack of top players in the '72 FO draw)
    But his pre-open era results show him to be a very worthy major winner.

    If its not too much trouble could you list the masters series events for Mac & Sampras? You don't need to list the years they won what, just the events that were used for their time. thanks.
     
    #25
  26. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
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    Thank you, urban, your answer is very useful to me, I don't have much time to address it right now, but I'll definitely look into it soon and come back with proper answers. I just note that we reach similar conclusions regarding the dominant clay players, and that they definitely don't confirm the idea of Rosewall as the greatest clay-courter ever...He seemed to be often dominated by Gimeno and Laver, and his '68 victory seems more like an unexpected come-back than a confirmation...

    Your argument about Barcelona is good, but the 64-men best-of-5 format is still a strong incentive for me to call anything a major...
    About the difficulty of research,I totally agree with you, I'm afraid old newspapers bits or posters are the only thing we can use apart to get what isn't in the McCauley book...

    Moose,
    I will put the info about McEnroe and Sampras, as soon as I have a little more time...

    Take care,

    Jonathan
     
    #26
  27. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Re to Barcelona in 1970. In his book,Education of a Tennis player, page 299, with Bud Collins, Laver in 1971 counted the 15 most significant tournaments for 1970, including AO (grass), Philadelphia US Pro indoor (indoor), US indoor, Sydney Dunlop open (grass, had indeed better field than AO), Rome (clay), Paris RG (clay), Johannesburg (hard), Wimbledon (grass), US Pro Boston (hard, Hamburg (clay), Forest Hills (grass), LA PSW (hard), Wembley (indoor), Stockholm (indoor), Paris (indoor). It correspondents with the ratings of tennis tournaments in the World of tennis yearbook 1971 by John Barrett/ Lance Tingay. Barcelona isn't in it, instead as traditional clay events Paris, Rome and Hamburg.
     
    #27
  28. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

    Joined:
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    Thanks for the information...

    -about 1965, I saw the film you talk about. I remember the pros played in Cannes, indoors, but I don't remember any direct reference to the Italian circuit... I'll watch it again. If anybody can have information about this Milan event that would be great, as I'm still unsure about the surface, the arguments towards clay seem as strong to me.
    -for 1963-1964, the fact that Geneva was on clay according to you is most useful. In that case I could definitely make it my clay event for these years.
    -about 1967: there was actually a handful of tournaments that were almost surely on clay, considering their location ( southern Europe or southern United States) and date (summer). Laver won most of them (San Juan(Porto Rico), Oklahoma World Pro, Marseille, Miami Beach, Orlando), so I think he's pretty clearly the best clay player that year. Add to this his total domination on wood and grass, and this year was really as much of a Grand slam year as 1969 for him!
    -about 1970: Laver evokes events based on their prestige only in this list, not on their actual value that year. Rome was extremely depleted, the top seed was Lew Hoad (!!!), and the #2 was very young Nastase. I couldn't find Hamburg's draw anywhere but I suspect it isn't much better. Sorry but I still think that the combination good draw/pro-am draw/best-of-5 format makes Barcelone the best clay event :) (maybe Laver didn't mention it because he lost in the final...just kidding).

    Jonathan
     
    #28
  29. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Good points, Sgt John about 1965 and 1967. Whether Oklahoma, which was hyperbolically called a World Championship, was a clay event, i really don't know. The other events could well be clay.
    The list i mentioned for 1970, is more made by Bud Collins, than by Laver. In the Yearbooks by John Barrett, the most valuable source for the early open era, Rome, Johannesburg, Wembley and Hamburg always had preeminent status, too. Hamburg in 1970 had a quite good field, with Okker winning the final over Nastase, who had beaten Roche. Okker had beaten Kodes in the semi, with a bagel in the 2nd of three straight sets. Pilic, Franulovic, Proisy were also in the draw. There were some WCT players present, alongside the European clay court artists.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2007
    #29
  30. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    OK, I didn't know about this Hamburg draw... The thing is, I really wanted to select an event featuring Laver and Rosewall, as they were clearly the best players that year, and the finalists in '68 and '69 RG... But it's OK if we disagree, actually it shows how the list can change depending on people's point of view, and that there are different perfectly reasonable discussions that can lead us to different choices.
    That's why the leaderboard isn't a fixed thing, I'm not thinking 'Wow, Federer has 6 to go to catch Laver!' or something like that, but it can give us intervals where we know for sure a player will be in anyone's list... It seems very hard to come up with a list where neither Rosewall nor Gonzales is the title leader, for example...

    Jon
     
    #30
  31. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Although i still rank the Barcelona event in 1970 not as high (especially for his placing in late October), it was certainly a huge success in the country. For the final the Barcelona club complex was sold out with over 7000 people, with over 6000 closed out in front of the entrances. Thes informations are in a book by Betty Laver about Laver's career, which i read recently.
     
    #31
  32. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
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    Hi John, do you have more details on these events? Like who else did Rosewall beat at these events?
     
    #32
  33. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    Sure:
    -at the French, Rosewall beat Mal Anderson in the QF, then Hoad (both in straight sets), and Laver in five in the final. Laver beat Sedgman in the SF.
    -at Wembley, Rosewall beat Trabert, Olmedo, and Hoad (in 4). Laver was upset by Buchholz in the QF.
    -in Rome (surface unknown), he beat Ayala, Gimeno and Laver.
    -at the US Pro he defeated Trabert, Olmedo and Laver, all in straight sets.

    Jon
     
    #33
  34. Nickognito

    Nickognito Rookie

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    Location:
    Florence, Italy
    Jon, do you have pro tournament draws?
     
    #34
  35. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Many draws are in the Joe McCauley-book: History of Professional tennis. He has made a extensive statistical section for all pro tournaments played between 1927-1968.
     
    #35
  36. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    This book can be purchased from the the Tennis Gallery in Wimbledon (thanks to chaog for pointing this out in the first place).
    It is clearly a must-have for anyone interesting in the Pro era.
     
    #36
  37. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Hi John, what is your source for year end rankings pre computer? do you have a list of #1s for every year?

    also, you say that this list is revised to include a major claycourt event for each year.

    Do you have the total # of clay 'majors' that Gonzales, Laver, & Rosewall won under your system?

    thanks
     
    #37
  38. Q&M son

    Q&M son Professional

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    Trenque Lauquen, BA, Argentina.
    Let us know if you update this list, please.
    Thank you!
     
    #38
  39. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Change to 1970 & 1971 ??

    1971
    AO Rosewall (Ashe)
    Rome Laver (Kodes)
    Wim Newcombe (Smith)
    USO Smith (Kodes)

    1970
    Sydney Laver (Rosewall)
    Wim Newcombe (Rosewall)
    USO Rosewall (Roche)
    Barcelone Santana (Laver)

    I enjoyed reading that section. I have to say that I think I disagree with their top 4 tournaments in 1970 and 1971. Laver won the 'Tennis Champions Classic' both those years. In 1971, Laver achieved the seemingly impossible feat of winning 13 straight matches against the best of the world's pros in the Tennis Champions Classic. That is like winning two Grand Slam tournaments back to back in a row!
     
    #39
  40. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    The Tennis Champions Classic was kind of an exhibition, plus I value elimination tournaments much more than Round Robin...
    I'm open to changes though, but I could consider it a major only if I had some newspaper article stating it was considered at the time as that significant...

    Anyway this list has been updated many times since then so I don't necessarily approve everything in it. If people are interested I'll copy the new list when it's finished some time...
     
    #40
  41. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

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    OK, as people are commenting on the old list, but as I don't approve of everything in it anymore, I decided to put the new one here, even if (VERY important) it is still a work in progress.

    Some methodology points:

    -no more surface criteria (ie one clay major per year) as it led to too much twisting of the reality of what was and was not a great tournament.

    -a system of coefficients for majors:
    *only the true, undisputed majors get a coefficient of 1: this includes the traditional Slam majors, the Pro slam majors, and the '19th-century- Slam' (Wimbledon-Irish-Northern) majors, the Davis Cup, the New York Masters, and only a few others...

    *the rest of the tournaments have coefficients.

    An example: the year 1970.
    Wimbledon and the USO were definitely true majors so they get a coef. 1.
    There are still 2 'slots' to fill.
    The PSW LA, Philadelphia, Sydney, and Tokyo Masters were all great tournaments, but none on the majors level.
    So each one of them gets a 1/2 coef. 2*1+4*1/2=4, so we got it right.

    Final result:

    1970
    0.5 Sydney Laver
    0.5 Philadelphia Laver
    0.5 PSW Los Angeles Laver
    0.5 Masters Smith
    1 Wim Newcombe
    1 USO Rosewall

    So Laver has gained 1.5 'points' during that year, rosewall and Newcombe 1 and Smith 0.5.

    *the coef system let me be much more flexible concerning the pro/amateur divide for the really ambiguous years, such as 1934-1936 for instance.
    In that case I can apply coefs not only for tournaments but also the pro field vs the amateur field.
    I can give further details another time, this is just to explain why some coefs can seem very 'strange' and unintuitive for some of these years.

    This system is obviously more complex than the previous one, but probably fairer too, and lets us take into account a bit of the complexity of tennis history.

    Here's the list...
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2009
    #41
  42. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    230
    2008
    1 AO Djokovic
    1 RG Nadal
    1 Wim Nadal
    1 USO Federer

    2007
    1 AO Federer
    1 RG Nadal
    1 Wim Federer
    1 USO Federer

    2006
    1 AO Federer
    1 RG Nadal
    1 Wim Federer
    1 USO Federer

    2005
    1 AO Safin
    1 RG Nadal
    1 Wim Federer
    1 USO Federer

    2004
    1 AO Federer
    1 RG Gaudio
    1 Wim Federer
    1 USO Federer

    2003
    1 AO Agassi
    1 RG Ferrero
    1 Wim Federer
    1 USO Roddick

    2002
    1 AO Johansson
    1 RG Costa
    1 Wim Hewitt
    1 USO Sampras

    2001
    1 AO Agassi
    1 RG Kuerten
    1 Wim Ivanisevic
    1 USO Hewitt

    2000
    1 AO Agassi
    1 RG Kuerten
    1 Wim Sampras
    1 USO Safin

    1999
    1 AO Kafelnikov
    1 RG Agassi
    1 Wim Sampras
    1 USO Agassi

    1998
    1 AO Korda
    1 RG Moya
    1 Wim Sampras
    1 USO Rafter

    1997
    1 AO Sampras
    1 RG Kuerten
    1 Wim Sampras
    1 USO Rafter

    1996
    1 AO Becker
    1 RG Kafelnikov
    1 Wim Krajicek
    1 USO Sampras

    1995
    1 AO Agassi
    1 RG Muster
    1 Wim Sampras
    1 USO Sampras

    1994
    1 AO Sampras
    1 RG Bruguera
    1 Wim Sampras
    1 USO Agassi

    1993
    1 AO Courier
    1 RG Bruguera
    1 Wim Sampras
    1 USO Sampras

    1992
    1 AO Courier
    1 RG Courier
    1 Wim Agassi
    1 USO Edberg

    1991
    1 AO Becker
    1 RG Courier
    1 Wim Stich
    1 USO Edberg

    1990
    1 AO Lendl
    1 RG Gomez
    1 Wim Edberg
    1 USO Sampras

    1989
    0.5 AO Lendl
    0.5 Masters Edberg
    1 RG Chang
    1 Wim Becker
    1 USO Becker

    1988
    0.5 AO Wilander
    0.5 Masters Becker
    1 RG Wilander
    1 Wim Edberg
    1 USO Wilander

    1987
    0.5 AO Edberg
    0.5 Masters Lendl
    1 RG Lendl
    1 Wim Cash
    1 USO Lendl

    1986
    0.5 Masters Lendl
    0.5 B. Raton Lendl
    1 RG Lendl
    1 Wim Becker
    1 USO Lendl

    1985
    0.5 AO Edberg
    0.5 Masters Lendl
    1 RG Wilander
    1 Wim Becker
    1 USO Lendl

    1984
    0.5 AO Wilander
    0.5 Masters McEnroe
    1 RG Lendl
    1 Wim McEnroe
    1 USO McEnroe

    1983
    0.5 AO Wilander
    0.5 Masters McEnroe
    1 RG Noah
    1 Wim McEnroe
    1 USO Connors

    1982
    1 Masters Lendl
    1 RG Wilander
    1 Wim Connors
    1 USO Connors

    1981
    1 Masters Lendl
    1 RG Borg
    1 Wim McEnroe
    1 USO McEnroe

    1980
    1 Masters Borg
    1 RG Borg
    1 Wim Borg
    1 USO McEnroe

    1979
    1 Masters Borg
    1 RG Borg
    1 Wim Borg
    1 USO McEnroe

    1978
    0.5 Philadelphia Connors
    0.5 Masters McEnroe
    1 RG Borg
    1 Wim Borg
    1 USO Connors

    1977
    1 Masters Connors
    0.5 RG Vilas
    0.5 Philadelphia Stockton
    1 Wim Borg
    1 USO Vilas

    1976
    0.5 Philadelphia Connors
    0.5 WCT Borg
    0.5 RG Panatta
    0.5 Masters Orantes
    1 Wim Borg
    1 USO Connors

    1975
    0.5 Masters Nastase
    0.5 WCT Ashe
    0.5 RG Borg
    0.5 Philadelphia Riessen
    1 Wim Ashe
    1 USO Orantes

    1974
    0.5 Masters Vilas
    0.5 WCT Newcombe
    0.5 RG Borg
    0.5 Philadelphia Laver
    1 Wim Connors
    1 USO Connors

    1973
    0.5 Masters Nastase
    0.5 WCT Smith
    1 RG Nastase
    0.5 Rome Nastase
    0.5 Davis Cup Laver
    1 USO Newcombe

    1972
    1 PSW Los Angeles Smith
    0.5 Davis Cup Stan Smith
    0.5 WCT Rosewall
    0.5 Wimbledon Smith
    0.5 Masters Nastase
    1 USO Nastase

    1971
    1 AO Rosewall
    0.5 Rome Laver
    0.5 WCT Rosewall
    1 Wim Newcombe
    1 USO Smith

    1970
    0.5 Sydney Laver
    0.5 Philadelphia Laver
    0.5 PSW Los Angeles Laver
    0.5 Masters Smith
    1 Wim Newcombe
    1 USO Rosewall

    1969
    1 AO Laver
    1 RG Laver
    1 Wim Laver
    1 USO Laver

    1968
    1 PSW Laver
    0.5 RG Rosewall
    0.5 French Pro Laver
    1 Wim Laver
    1 USO Ashe
     
    #42
  43. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

    Joined:
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    230
    1967
    1 Wimbledon Pro Laver
    1 Wembley Laver
    1 French Pro Laver
    1 US Pro Laver

    1966
    1 Wembley Laver
    1 French Pro Rosewall
    1 US Pro Laver
    0.5 Barcelona Gimeno
    0.5 MSG Pro Rosewall

    1965
    1 Wembley Laver
    0.5 US Pro Hardcourt Rosewall
    0.5 US Pro Indoors Laver
    1 US Pro Rosewall
    1 French Pro Rosewall

    1964
    1 Wembley Laver
    0.5 US Pro Indoors Gonzales
    0.5 US Pro Hardcourt Rosewall
    1 French Pro Rosewall
    1 US Pro Laver

    1963
    1 Wembley Rosewall
    1 World Championship Series Rosewall
    1 French Pro Rosewall
    1 US Pro Rosewall

    1962
    1 Wembley Rosewall
    1 French Pro Rosewall
    0.5 Wimbledon Laver
    0.5 Forest Hills Fraser
    0.5 Geneva Gold Trophy Rosewall
    0.5 Milano Pro Rosewall

    1961
    1 Wembley Rosewall
    1 French Pro Rosewall
    0.5 Copenhagen Pro Gonzales
    0.5 Vienna Pro Gonzales
    1 World Championship Series Gonzales

    1960
    1 Wembley Rosewall
    1 French Pro Rosewall
    1 World Pro Series Gonzales
    0.5 Australian Pro Indoor Rosewall
    0.5 Victorian Pro Hoad

    1959
    1 Forest Hills Tournament of Champions Hoad
    1 L.A. Masters Round Robin Gonzales
    0.5 French Pro Trabert
    0.5 Wembley Pro Anderson
    1 World Pro Series Gonzales

    1958
    0.8 Wembley Sedgman
    0.8 French Pro Rosewall
    0.8 Forest Hills Tournament of Champions Gonzales
    0.8 L.A. Masters Round Robin Segura
    0.8 Australian Pro Sedgman

    1957
    0.8 Forest Hill Tournament of Champions Gonzales
    0.8 Australian Pro Segura
    0.8 Wembley Rosewall
    0.8 L.A. Masters Round Robin Gonzales
    0.8 US Pro Gonzales

    1956
    1 L.A. Tournament of Champions Gonzales
    1 French Pro Trabert
    1 Wembley Gonzales
    0.5 Davis Cup Hoad
    0.5 Davis Cup Rosewall

    1955
    0.5 US Pro Hardcourt Gonzales
    0.5 Scarborough Pro Gonzales
    1 Australian Tour Gonzales
    0.5 Wimbledon Trabert
    0.5 Forest Hills Trabert
    1 Davis Cup Rosewall

    1954
    0.75 US Pro Gonzales
    0.75 World Series Gonzales
    0.75 Australian Pro Sedgman
    0.375 US Pro Hardcourt Gonzales
    0.375 Far East Pro Tour Gonzales
    1 Davis Cup Trabert

    1953
    0.75 World Championship Series Kramer
    0.75 Australian Tour Gonzales
    0.75 Wembley Sedgman
    0.1875 New York Pro Indoors Kramer
    0.1875 Chicago Pro Kramer
    0.1875 Paris Pro Sedgman
    0.1875 Caracas RR Segura
    1 Davis Cup Hoad

    1952
    1 Wembley Gonzales
    1 US Pro Segura
    1 Philadelphia Pro Round Robin Gonzales
    1 Davis Cup Sedgman

    1951
    0.75 US Pro Segura
    0.375 Berlin Pro Segura
    0.375 World Championship Series Kramer
    0.75 Philadelphia Pro Round Robin Kramer
    1 Davis Cup Sedgman
    0.75 Wembley Gonzales

    1950
    1 Philadelphia Pro Gonzales
    1 US Pro Segura
    0.5 Paris Pro Indoors Segura
    0.5 Wembley Gonzales
    1 Davis Cup Sedgman

    1949
    1 Wembley Kramer
    0.5 Davis Cup Gonzales
    0.5 Davis Cup Schroeder
    0.5 US Pro Riggs
    0.5 Scarborough Pro Kramer
    0.5 Wimbledon Schroeder
    0.5 Forest Hills Gonzales

    1948
    1 US Pro Kramer
    0.5 Davis Cup Schroeder
    0.5 Davis Cup Parker
    1 World Championship Tour Kramer
    0.5 Wimbledon Falkenburg
    0.5 Forest Hills Gonzales

    1947
    1 US Pro Riggs
    0.5 US Indoor Pro Riggs
    0.5 US Challenge Series Riggs
    0.5 Wimbledon Kramer
    0.5 Forest Hills Kramer
    0.5 Davis Cup Kramer
    0.5 Davis Cup Schroeder

    1946
    1 USA Tour Series Riggs
    0.5 Southern Pro Budge
    0.5 New England Championships Riggs
    1 US Pro Riggs
    1 US Pro Hardcourt Riggs

    1943-1945
    1 US Pro Hardcourt (’45) Riggs
    0.5 Forest Hills ‘44 Parker
    0.5 Forest Hills ‘45 Parker

    1942
    1 USA Tour Series (’42) Budge
    1 US Pro (’42) Budge

    1941
    0.5 Forest Hills Pro ‘41 Perry
    1 US Pro ‘41 Perry
    0.5 Forest Hills ‘41 Riggs


    1940
    1 US Pro ‘40 Budge
    0.5 West Coast Pro ‘40 Perry
    0.5 Forest Hills ‘40 McNeill

    1939
    1 USA Tour Series Budge
    1 French Pro Budge
    0.5 Wembley Round Robin Budge
    0.5 Southport Round Robin Budge
    0.5 Southport Pro Nusslein
    0.5 US Pro Vines

    1938
    1 Davis Cup Budge
    1 US Tour Series Vines
    1 Wimbledon Budge
    1 Forest Hills Budge

    1937
    0.8 USA Tour Series Vines
    0.8 GB Tour Perry
    0.8 Davis Cup Budge
    0.8 Wimbledon Budge
    0.8 Forest Hills Budge

    1936
    1 Davis Cup Perry
    1 Roland Garros Von Cramm
    1 Wimbledon Perry
    1 Forest Hills Perry

    1935
    0.35 Davis Cup Perry
    0.35 Davis Cup Austin
    0.7 Roland Garros Perry
    0.6 French Pro Vines
    0.7 Wimbledon Perry
    0.6 Wembley Vines
    0.7 Forest Hills Allison

    1934
    0.35 Davis Cup Perry
    0.35 Davis Cup Austin
    0.7 Roland Garros Von Cramm
    0.6 US Pro Nusslein
    0.7 Wimbledon Perry
    0.6 Wembley Vines
    0.7 Forest Hills Perry

    1933
    0.7 Davis Cup Perry
    0.7 Roland Garros Crawford
    0.6 World Pro Nusslein
    0.7 Wimbledon Crawford
    0.6 US Tour Nusslein
    0.7 Forest Hills Perry

    1932
    0.7 Davis Cup Borotra
    0.7 Roland Garros Cochet
    0.6 US Pro Kozeluh
    0.7 Wimbledon Vines
    0.6 US Tour Tilden
    0.7 Forest Hills Vines

    1931
    0.7 Davis Cup Cochet
    0.7 Roland Garros Borotra
    0.7 Forest Hills Vines
    0.7 Wimbledon Wood
    0.6 US Tour Tilden
    0.6 US Pro Tilden

    1930
    1 Davis Cup Cochet
    1 Roland Garros Cochet
    1 Wimbledon Tilden
    1 Forest Hills Doeg

    1929
    1 Davis Cup Cochet
    1 Roland Garros Lacoste
    1 Wimbledon Cochet
    1 Forest Hills Tilden

    1928
    1 Davis Cup Cochet
    1 Roland Garros Cochet
    1 Wimbledon Lacoste
    1 Forest Hills Cochet

    1927
    1 Davis Cup Lacoste
    1 French Int’ls Lacoste
    1 Wimbledon Cochet
    1 Forest Hills Lacoste

    1926
    1 Davis Cup Johnston
    0.5 French Int’ls Cochet
    0.5 Newport Tilden
    1 Wimbledon Borotra
    1 Forest Hills Lacoste

    1925
    0.5 Davis Cup Tilden
    0.5 Davis Cup Johnston
    0.5 French Int'ls Lacoste
    0.5 Newport Johnston
    1 Wimbledon Lacoste
    1 Forest Hills Tilden

    1924
    0.5 Davis Cup Tilden
    0.5 Davis Cup Richards
    0.5 Paris Olympics Richards
    0.5 Newport Johnston
    1 Wimbledon Borotra
    1 Forest Hills Tilden

    1923
    1 Davis Cup Tilden
    0.5 Paris World HC Championships Johnston
    0.5 Newport Kinsey
    1 Wimbledon Johnston
    1 Forest Hills Tilden

    1922
    0.5 Davis Cup Tilden
    0.5 Davis Cup Johnston
    0.5 Paris World HC Championships Cochet
    0.5 Newport Johnston
    1 Wimbledon Patterson
    1 Forest Hills Tilden

    1921
    0.5 Davis Cup Tilden
    0.5 Davis Cup Johnston
    0.5 Paris World HC Championships Tilden
    0.5 Newport Washburn
    1 Wimbledon Tilden
    1 Forest Hills Tilden

    1920
    0.5 Davis Cup Tilden
    0.5 Davis Cup Johnston
    0.5 Paris World HC Championships Laurentz
    0.5 Newport Griffin
    1 Wimbledon Tilden
    1 Forest Hills Tilden

    1919
    0.5 International Match Tilden
    0.5 International Match Johnston
    0.5 US Claycourt Championhships Johnston
    0.5 Newport Tilden
    1 Wimbledon Patterson
    1 Forest Hills Johnston
     
    #43
  44. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    230
    1915-1918
    1 Forest Hills ‘15 Johnston
    1 Forest Hills ‘16 Williams
    0.5 Newport ‘15 Williams
    0.5 Newport ‘16 Kumagae
    0.5 Forest Hills ‘17 Murray
    0.5 Forest Hills ‘18 Murray

    1914
    0.5 Davis Cup McLoughlin
    0.25 Davis Cup Brookes
    0.25 Davis Cup Wilding
    0.5 Paris World HC Championships Wilding
    0.5 Longwood Bowl McLoughlin
    1 Wimbledon Brookes
    1 Newport Williams

    1913
    0.5 Davis Cup Parke
    0.25 Davis Cup McLoughlin
    0.25 Davis Cup Williams
    0.5 Paris World HC Championships Wilding
    0.5 Longwood Bowl Johnston
    1 Wimbledon Wilding
    1 Newport McLoughlin

    1912
    1 Davis Cup Parke
    0.5 Indoor Olympics Gobert
    0.5 Longwood Bowl McLoughlin
    1 Wimbledon Wilding
    1 Newport McLoughlin

    1911
    1 Davis Cup Brookes
    0.5 British Covered Courts Gobert
    0.5 Longwood Bowl EP Larned
    1 Wimbledon Wilding
    1 Newport Larned

    1910
    0.5 Longwood Bowl Larned
    0.5 Queen’s Wilding
    0.5 British Covered Courts Lowe
    0.5 London Covered Courts Wilding
    1 Wimbledon Wilding
    1 Newport Larned

    1909
    0.5 Davis Cup Brookes
    0.5 Davis Cup Wilding
    0.5 British Covered Courts Ritchie
    0.5 Longwood Bowl Larned
    1 Wimbledon Gore
    1 Newport Larned

    1908
    0.5 Davis Cup Wright
    0.25 Davis Cup Brookes
    0.25 Davis Cup Wilding
    0.5 Longwood Bowl Larned
    0.5 Indoor Olympics Gore
    1 Wimbledon Gore
    1 Newport Larned

    1907
    1 Davis Cup Brookes
    0.5 British Covered Courts Wilding
    0.5 Longwood Bowl Larned
    1 Wimbledon Brookes
    1 Newport Larned

    1906
    0.5 Davis Cup L Doherty
    0.5 Davis Cup S Smith
    0.5 British Covered Courts L Doherty
    0.5 Longwood Bowl Larned
    1 Wimbledon L Doherty
    1 Newport Clothier

    1905
    0.5 Davis Cup L Doherty
    0.5 Davis Cup S Smith
    0.5 British Covered Courts L Doherty
    0.5 Longwood Bowl Larned
    1 Wimbledon L Doherty
    1 Newport Wright

    1904
    0.5 Davis Cup Riseley
    0.5 Davis Cup L Doherty
    0.5 British Covered Courts L Doherty
    0.5 Longwood Bowl Larned
    1 Wimbledon L Doherty
    1 Newport Ward

    1903
    1 Davis Cup L Doherty
    0.5 British Covered Courts L Doherty
    0.5 Longwood Bowl Larned
    1 Wimbledon L Doherty
    1 Newport L Doherty

    1902
    1 Davis Cup Whitman
    0.5 Irish L Doherty
    0.5 British Covered Courts L Doherty
    1 Wimbledon L Doherty
    1 Newport Larned


    1901
    1 Irish R Doherty
    0.5 Northern S Smith
    0.5 British Covered Courts L Doherty
    1 Wimbledon Gore
    1 Newport Larned

    1900
    1 Irish R Doherty
    0.5 British Covered Courts Gore
    0.5 Northern S Smith
    1 Wimbledon R Doherty
    0.5 Newport Whitman
    0.5 Paris Olympics L Doherty

    1899
    1 Irish R Doherty
    1 Northern S Smith
    1 Wimbledon R Doherty
    0.5 Newport Whitman
    0.5 British Covered Courts Eaves

    1898
    1 Irish Mahony
    1 Northern L Doherty
    1 Wimbledon R Doherty
    0.5 Newport Whitman
    0.5 British Covered Courts Eaves

    1897
    1 Irish Eaves
    1 Northern Baddeley
    1 Wimbledon R Doherty
    0.5 Newport Wrenn
    0.5 British Covered Courts Eaves

    1896
    1 Irish Baddeley
    1 Northern Baddeley
    1 Wimbledon Mahony
    0.5 Newport Wrenn
    0.5 British Covered Courts Lewis

    1895
    1 Irish Pim
    1 Northern Baddeley
    1 Wimbledon Baddeley
    0.5 West Newton International RR Pim
    0.5 British Covered Courts Lewis


    1894
    1 Irish Pim
    1 Northern Baddeley
    1 Wimbledon Pim
    0.5 London Championships Mahony
    0.5 British Covered Courts Mahony

    1893
    1 Irish Pim
    1 Northern Pim
    1 Wimbledon Pim
    0.5 London Championships Pim
    0.5 British Covered Courts Mahony

    1892
    1 Irish E Renshaw
    1 Northern Pim
    1 Wimbledon Baddeley
    0.5 London Championships Lewis
    0.5 British Covered Courts Meers

    1891
    1 Irish Lewis
    1 Northern Pim
    1 Wimbledon Baddeley
    0.5 London Championships Barlow
    0.5 British Covered Courts Lewis

    1890
    1 Irish Lewis
    1 Northern Pim
    1 Wimbledon Hamilton
    0.5 London Championships Barlow
    0.5 British Covered Courts Lewis

    1889
    1 Irish Hamilton
    1 Northern Hamilton
    1 Wimbledon W Renshaw
    0.5 London Championships Barlow
    0.5 British Covered Courts Lewis

    1888
    1 Irish E Renshaw
    1 Northern Hamilton
    1 Wimbledon E Renshaw
    0.5 London Championships Lewis
    0.5 British Covered Courts Lewis

    1887
    1 Irish E Renshaw
    1 Northern Grove
    1 Wimbledon Lawford
    0.5 London Championships Lewis
    0.5 British Covered Courts Lewis

    1886
    1 Irish Lawford
    1 Northern Grove
    1 Wimbledon W Renshaw
    0.5 London Championships Lewis
    0.5 British Covered Courts EL Williams

    1885
    1 Irish Lawford
    1 Northern Dwight
    1 Wimbledon W Renshaw
    0.5 London Championships Ross
    0.5 British Covered Courts Lawford

    1884
    1 Irish Lawford
    1 Northern Stewart
    1 Wimbledon W Renshaw
    0.5 West of England Browne
    0.5 South of England EL Williams

    1883
    1 Irish E Renshaw
    1 Northern Wilberforce
    1 Wimbledon W Renshaw
    1 Prince’s Championships Lawford

    1882
    1 Irish W Renshaw
    1 Northern Richardson
    1 Wimbledon W Renshaw
    1 Prince’s Championships Lawford

    1881
    1 Irish W Renshaw
    0.5 Cheltenham E Renshaw
    0.5 Northern Richardson
    1 Wimbledon W Renshaw
    1 Prince’s Championships W Renshaw

    1880
    1 Irish W Renshaw
    1 Wimbledon Hartley
    1 Prince’s Championships Lawford

    1879
    1 Irish Goold
    1 Wimbledon Hartley

    1878
    1 Wimbledon Hadow

    1877
    1 Wimbledon S Gore
     
    #44
  45. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

    Joined:
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    That's very well done, Jonathan and pretty valuable abstraction for the purposes of getting at what the best events were and who won them.

    I caution others though not to assume that this approach is fool-proof towards deciding who the most accomplished player of all time is. 1965 is a good example - while Jonathan's numbers favour Rosewall, they do not account for the fact that Laver otherwise dominated h2h against his rival and won, if memory serves, almost twice the overall titles.

    Again, what matters is how we use this information.
     
    #45
  46. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,366
    The list is good, although some events remain debatable. The idea, to give half points in some cases seems fair to me. But as Cy Borg said, its not the whole picture. Overall numbers of events won, head-to-head results, match records, prize money won etc. should be included in a fair analysis.
    On the old pro tour there wasn't the stabil structure, we have on today's ATP tour. The old pros never had the time, to focus on 4 preeminent major events, which were played in a certain nice schedule, distributed over the season. For instance, the Paris pro event was mostly played just one week before the Wembley event, which was seen by the pros as unofficial world champs. St. John had in another thread a list of Super Nine events or their equivalents. That list could give a good complementary view on many years.
    Some small correction from first sight: In 1962 not Fraser, but Laver won Forest Hills.
     
    #46
  47. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    I would consider that a pretty big correction. Also, I don't think you can discount the importance of the conditions in which the Kramer-era pro events were played. If 95% of the matches were played indoors on fast hard-courts that would certainly favour some players over others and really help to inflate their numbers.
     
    #47
  48. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2007
    Messages:
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    Location:
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    Would this be any different than the contemporary "speeding up" of surfaces?

    If clay events, for the most part, carried no (or little) prestige at the time (some would know better about this than me), then it's quite hard to account for slower surfaces.

    The best we can do then is acknowledge that tennis was a fast-surface game at the time, because of the way the tour was organized. The business aspects of sports always control everything.
     
    #48
  49. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    230
    Exactly. If 95% of events were on fast hardcourt, then the fact of being a good claycourt player was not considered a very valuable thing by the tennis community in the discussed year, and should not be rewarded by the list.

    Thanks urban about 1962, it's now corrected in my file.

    Right point by Cyborg too about the way we use the list. It's not intended to solve the GOAT 'issue' or any other. It's just a tool to be used in discussing these questions, precisely.
     
    #49
  50. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    527
    Hello SgtJohn,
    In a very quick glance I've seen "1953 0.75 Australian Tour Gonzales". I'm not sure at all there was an Australian tour at the end of 1953. In McCauley's book there is one but with results quite similar to those of 1954. In Tennis de France in late 1953, Sedgman said that after Geneva and Lyon he would come back to Australia to support the Davis Cup team (Hoad and Rosewall) but he didn't make any reference to pro matches Down Under against Gonzales or Segura.
    Could you give some precisions ? AndrewTas has perhaps an answer. Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2009
    #50

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