GOAT with Muscles

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by pc1, Jul 23, 2009.

  1. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    that's all you got? someone posts a long paragraph and you just throw crap in my face again? Notice I didn't insult you this time, you did me in here....twice
     
    #51
  2. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Forza, I confess I was tired to answer all your strange claims.

    But if you want here a bit more.

    I watch current tennis enough to judge it.

    It's absurd you refuse to give Rosewall the status of a GOAT contender. I guess you only have ONE contender...

    Please tell me those players who have a more complete resume than Rosewall.

    Gonzalez's claim is an opinion: I respect it as that but not more than that. Some other players have said that Rosewall's forehand was only a "weakness" in comparison to his awesome backhand but still very good, at least in his prime. Rosewall is repected as the possible greatest groundstroker, among his feats 6 clay majors even though he did not play often majors on clay. Is that possible with a weak forehand? Modern equipment would also help Rosewall to make his forehand more powerful. On the other side, are you sure that your hero would shoot his forehand as powerfully as today with a wooden racquet?

    If Rosewall has a forehand weakness, your idol has a backhand weakness which is exploited by Nadal, Murray and Djokovic. But it's still only a relative weakness.

    Muscles beat tall players like Gonzalez and Smith quite often.

    He was not owned by Sedgman for a longer period. Here Pancho is wrong as those are who claimed that Segura owned Rosewall.

    It's fine that you did not insult me THIS TIME. Thanks a lot! You just use to insult a small tennis player from Sydney who arguably is the GOAT.
     
    #52
  3. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Forza, Peter Bodo in his article Roger Federer, twilight of a classic, he writes that Federer's backhand is versatile but not terribly threating, which is politely formulated.

    In the Fireside Book of Tennis Dennis Ralston says that "Rosewall's forehand return is often called his weakest shot but I know a lot of players who would like to have it. It's not a weak shot; it's excellent".

    Hope you can accept my replies.
     
    #53
  4. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Sorry, a doubles
     
    #54
  5. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Weither a player of 145lb could dominate in today's game or not, I strongly disagree that a player should be excluded from the goat discussion because of this.

    Think about the great conqueror/strategist. I'm sure that there are goat discussion on who is the greatest conqueror on some military board. I guess some guy like Genghis Khan, Darius, Alexander the great are mentionned. Well, the great asian hordes don't translate well on todays battlfields.

    In 30 years, it's very likely that today game will look very has been, and some guy will argue that Fed and Nadal are two bums who couldn't make it to the future circuits with their short size, their poor stamina, or whatever. I think that would be very unfair for them, just like you are unfair with Rosewall (and Genghis Khan).
     
    #55
  6. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Bobby, it's reasonnable to accept that two of the most dominant players in the history of the sport had parts of their game which were relatively inferior to other parts of their games, while these weakness are still a dream for a lot of other elite players.

    It's a very weak argument to attack Federer for his relatively weaker backhand and Rosewall for his relatively weaker forehand, given the size of their achievements.
     
    #56
  7. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Flash, Thanks.
     
    #57
  8. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    At the very, very top I got 2, they are Laver and Federer, ultimately I go for the contemporary one especially considering the amount of praise he's been given by just about anyone. Rosewall is not as good as either of those and nowhere near as dominant relative to the field.

    First of all no Wimbledon (you gave your arguments on this in the past and yes he did miss valuable years, but still no Wimbledon). Fed and Laver both have more impressive resumes, especially considering time spent at number 1 and being overall the best players of their era (Laver best of the 60s, Fed best of the 2000s, if I am not mistaken Gonzales is the best of the 50s, which puts Rosewall as an all time great, but not the definite hero of his decade). IMO Sampras and Nadal also have more impressive resumes when factoring in contemporary achievements. P. Gonzales for sure as well, a very dominant player. U can make a case for Borg too.

    LOL, best groundstroker? Who says so? I'd like to hear more on this in particular.

    Well if Tanner can hit a big serve with old school racquets, I am sure the GOAT forehand will be just fine playing with older equipment. Oh BTW

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    and the following:


    I'm sure The Maestro knows how to work it regardless, besides it's all about setting it up, and that's where that Jesus movement comes in, it's like walking on water or some *****, crazy good movement and anticipation and setting up shots.

    Nadal is the only one who to exploit the Fed backhand since he puts a ridiculous amount of top spin and action on that leftie forehand to the single handed Fed backhand. Fed backhand is actually one of the best single handed backhands on tour out there, even still today (never mind in his prime). On faster, lower bouncing courts such as the 02 Arena during the World Tour Finals, that weakness is neutralized, and if anything Fed uses that backhand to punish Nadal. Federer is 4-0 at the WTF vs Nadal, it's amazing what happens when you play someone on a court that's advantageous for you. The Nadal forehand to Fed backhand thing mainly ****es me off since they so often on slower courts (clay so many times, not to mention the overall slowing of the courts in general...y no Cincinnati meeting between them?)




    If Rosewall is "arguably" GOAT might as well increase the GOAT pool to include in guys like Agassi, and we end up nominating like 10-15 dudes for the GOAT title (which in its purpose is really a singular title)
     
    #58
  9. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near G.O.A.T.

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    Relax folks, ...
    Rosewall.. Agassi. Not quite sure what to say.

    Was Laver even greater than Rosewall? Hard to say, and very arguable.
     
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  10. NonP

    NonP Professional

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    I just noticed this and went back and saw what happened. Second pc1's return to this forum.
     
    #60
  11. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Peter Bodo also writes in, 'Roger Federer: The Man, The Matches, The Rivals' that Federer's backhand is only weak versus Nadal's forehand. If you actually watch some matches where Federer is in form versus Murray and Djokovic you'll see he does just fine against them in backhand exchanges. Bud Collins shares Bodo's opinion as well by the way, he says Federer's only weakness is a certain spaniard's topspin forehand to his backhand.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2013
    #61
  12. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    On high bouncing surfaces.
     
    #62
  13. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Indeed. Shame we never saw peak Federer face Nadal at the USO or Cinncinati...or during the first week of Wimbledon.
     
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  14. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    This Rosewall praise is the new found hip thing to do on this side of the forum. Laver is clearly the superior player to Rosewall.
     
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  15. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    I'd say Gonzales and Laver were both superior to Rosewall. Rosewall is only the GOAT of longevity.
     
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  16. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Fortzamilan, NatF, I understand easily that you rank Fed, Laver and Gonzales ahead of Rosewall, but I really don't agree that it is as clear as you make it. He has won 19 majors on all surfaces, from 1957 to 1972. He had to beat Gonzales, Laver, Hoad, Newcombe, etc. to do it.

    I understand he wasn't as dominant as the other three were, but he won 19 (nineteen) fracking majors!

    In conclusion, Rosewall didn't get his achievements the same way as the others (by dominating the tour for a period of time), but he tops them nonetheless.

    Whatever how he did it, what matter is that he did it.
     
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  17. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    I find it hard to equate pre-open achievements with open era ones. I simply see that Rosewall was not the greatest of his era, Laver and Gonzales surpass him IMO. If Laver didn't win the pro slam in 1967 and the Grand Slam in 1969 I would rank Rosewall ahead of him. I think Gonzales and Laver were just better. Federer being the greatest of the open era naturally in my mind enters the top 2-3.

    I actually see some similarities between Rosewall and Federer, both have the records for majors compared to their era's, both had a younger lefty who gave them problems.
     
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  18. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    I tend to agree with you on that, but I they had only 3 majors available each year and I think it's largely compensate for it. And what would have happened if the format was different?

    Beside, if Rosewall's pre-open era achievements are diminished, what do you do of Gonzales and Laver's one? Laver won 2/3 of his majors during the pro era, nearly half of his overall titles. The calendar slam is amazing, but is it enough to rank him higher than Sampras, Borg, Nadal, Lendl, Connors? Remember that half of the all time great of the open era never had the opportunity to do it as they usually didn't play all four majors (Connors was undefeated in slams in 1974, but skipped RG).

    As for Gonzales, yes he was dominant for a long time, but how can you really affirm that his world tour are a more worthy achievement than Rosewall's 19 majors? How many of these world tour matches were played on clay?
     
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  19. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    My method is to simply say Rosewall, Laver and Federer are in the same ballpark majors wise. I like to include the WTF as majors and Rosewall's WCT's should count as majors too IMO. If the format was different then Rosewall may have dominated all the same and won his crazy amount of majors or he may have been upset by an inspired opponent who he wasn't so used to playing.

    I don't diminish them I just don't say Rosewall has 23 majors = GOAT. I like to put these guys into tiers and I think Gonzales and Laver were greater. Better peaks. The Calendar Slam + his pro slam rank him higher than both. Plus his peak level is more highly respected than atleast Rosewall. I don't think there's any reasonable way to argue Lendl or Connors are above Laver, same with Nadal and Borg. Sampras didn't do enough on clay.

    Pancho had 15 pro titles the same as Ken, he was obviously too far from his best once the open era arrived to do more. That plus his extended dominance, the testimonies on his peak play being higher than Rosewall's and the fact he actually has a h2h advantage as him puts him higher in my view.
     
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  20. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    agree .......
     
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  21. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    The notion of 3 guys from the same era all being the GOAT is not dissimilar to claiming the current top guys are the best ever...
     
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  22. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Forza, You wrote I would thow crap into your face when I said you are ignorant. After this post what could I say else?

    I'm convinced that you are too young yet to judge tennis history. F.i. you once wrote that Decugis has won more French titles than Rosewall (to belittle Muscles)...

    Rosewall might not have been the best in the 1950s, in the 1960s and 1970s but for this three decades period he was the best without any doubt. He was arguably the best- as Co. No.1- in 1959 and 1960 (which means the 1950s), from 1961 to 1965 (partly as Co. No.1) and in 1970/71. No other player has dominanted for such a long time.

    Regarding your Wimbledon words: no comment....
     
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  23. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Nathaniel: Rosewall 23 majors, Agassi 8 majors. It was just a provokation of Forza...
     
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  24. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    In fact Rosewall was such a great player that he could play with his pocket full of coins and he still wouldn' t lose a single coin during a matchb
     
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  25. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Flash, I'm glad that there are still some reasonable posters. Thanks.

    But if we omit Rosewall's amateur GS tournaments we also must do it at Laver's. Thus the edge of Rosewall is even greater (19 : 13).

    The Laver/Rosewall case is not as simple as some posters mean. F.i.; as I use to write, Rosewall leads against Laver also in their big matches.
     
    #75
  26. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    NatF, Please note: Rosewall played in three eras top tennis.
     
    #76
  27. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    And none of his black hairs was out of tidiness...
     
    #77
  28. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Was he a worse tipper than Sampras?
     
    #78
  29. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    I said that as example of lowering the GOAT standard to include in even more players than it should, i.e. might as well Agassi
     
    #79
  30. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    So being the second best in 3 era's he should be the GOAT?
     
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  31. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Bobby answer the baseliner comment, where's that proof of best baseliner reputation!
     
    #81
  32. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Rosewall is in the Laver, Gonzalez category, Agassi is two tiers below them.
     
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  33. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    No, this PLUS his other achievements such as top ten player for 23 years, top three players for 16 years, best at the biggest tournament, 356 SFs reached, 23 or 25 majors won, best hth against the greatest players...
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2013
    #83
  34. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Forza, I cannot specify, but trust me that in Rosewall's time it was common sense that Rosewall was arguably the best groundstroker while Laver was known as best net player (even though Muscles had equal strong volleys).

    Of course the late Borg and Nadal became other contenders for that title.
     
    #84
  35. ScentOfDefeat

    ScentOfDefeat Hall of Fame

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    I don't understand the point of this thread if the OP's article is no longer available. :neutral:
     
    #85
  36. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near G.O.A.T.

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    Relax folks, ...
    Yes BobbyOne, I know it was. My humour and sarcasm is extremely dry and sometimes doesn't transmit over forum discourse except for most of the time.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2013
    #86
  37. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near G.O.A.T.

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    Relax folks, ...
    Rosewall was the best in the world for a substantial period of time in the earlier 60's. You don't think Rosewall should at least be in the discussion? Or are you trying to wind Mr BobbyOne up? ;)
     
    #87
  38. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    He was the best in the world for a few years, he never dominated to the extent of Gonzales or even Laver. I think Rosewall is easily top 5, he should be a tier 1 great but not the GOAT. I also have the second motive of winding up BobbyOne...because he winds me up :oops:
     
    #88
  39. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Nathaniel, Thanks for your understanding. It's interesting that especially the Rosewall discussion irritates some people. One reason might be that the Little Master is often ranked rather low in the lists (lower than he deserves). Thus the irritation if one or some people claim a top place for Muscles. Another reason could be that many think only a tall and poerful player can dominate.
     
    #89
  40. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Forza, Despite of the great heat in Vienna today, here a few arguments.

    Rosewall has got the title Doomsday Stroking Machine, obviously because he could strike at the baseline till Doomsday.

    Laver writes: "I would like to see what Tilden would do with Rosewall's backhand-even if he had divine guidance". "Rosewall never got the credit he deserved. He was overcoming Gonzalez".

    Gonzalez mentioned that Rosewall, Kramer and Segura (no order) were the three best baseliners.

    Olmedo said that Rosewall was the greatest player he ever saw. (Riessen said the same). Olmedo: "Rosewall's groundstrokes were peerless".

    Please note: also beauty, touch shots and fluid play are categories if we compare the greatest players.
     
    #90
  41. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I know: it's a crime to claim that Rosewall is a GOAT candidate...
     
    #91
  42. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Nothing to do with your praise of Rosewall, your eroneous claims about Federer are what irk me.
     
    #92
  43. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    NatF, Roger will survive my opinion. He mostly is praised as GOAT, often as God...
     
    #93
  44. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near G.O.A.T.

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    Relax folks, ...
    It's definitely true that BobbyOne talks about Federer with a lack of respect. It's a reaction against rabid Federer fans, as though to restore the balance, the tennis equilibrium.
     
    #94
  45. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    you do know it's all Tio Toni's fault? This whole war.
     
    #95
  46. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    N.N., You could be right...
     
    #96
  47. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near G.O.A.T.

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    Relax folks, ...
    Trust me, you are not the only one who gets annoyed by a whole bunch of Federer fans, and this is coming from a big fan of Roger. It's necessary to restore the balance to actually make sure all these players get the credit they truly deserve, so that they are not lost to history as a mere footnote.
     
    #97
  48. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    The rabid Federer fans don't really frequent these part of the forum, it's not excuse really. Saying wrong information about a player to plump up your icon is no better than being simply ignorant and thinking tennis began in 2003.
     
    #98
  49. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near G.O.A.T.

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    Relax folks, ...
    Uncle Toni and Toni's finest? ;)

    [​IMG]

    The irony of me posting this image, with Djokovic captioned as the 'Son of God', won't be lost on BobbyOne.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2013
    #99
  50. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near G.O.A.T.

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    Relax folks, ...
    Perhaps it's not an excuse but I understand it. We should not be looking to undermine the achievements for these great players (or exaggerating them falsely -- sorry but I often only skim ream so I probably missed most of the offenses). The good thing though here is we are all students of the game and we can all surely have a good and fair discussion on all these players and respect them for the champions that they are.

    We'll all calm down at some point until the next 'GOAT' comes along. Meheheh.
     

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