Gonzales VS Rosewall: The Ultimate Battle Fight 2 - More Impressive Career?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Nathaniel_Near, Jul 22, 2012.

?

So, who is overall greater? Who had the more impressive career...

  1. Ricardo Alonso ''Pancho'' González

    61.5%
  2. Kenneth Robert ''Ken'' Rosewall aka, Muscles

    38.5%
  1. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    I'm not saying that Parker was at his best in those US Pros he played in the 1950s, just that he was a big name in the tournament, which is what Dan Lobb was refuting when he said, and I quote, "US Pro rarely had more than two recognized names in it".
     
  2. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    He won the Canadian singles title in 1933, when he became a household name in Canada! My father watched him play with Sexas in the 1977 Forest Hills Senior Doubles final, where they lost to Hoad/Stolle, a much younger pair, and said "Frankie Parker?! He was a star when I was a boy!"
    Hot stuff in 1958?
    Recognized by the old-timers, perhaps, but not hot.
     
  3. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Parker was an even bigger star in the amateur ranks in the mid and late 1940s, when he was winning majors. And your argument was that the US Pros in Cleveland rarely had more than 2 recognised names in it. The reality is different.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2012
  4. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Perhaps I should have said, "more than 2 contenders". Sometimes no more than one contender. Sometimes no real contender.
    A minor event, to be sure.
     
  5. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan Lobb,

    Even though I agree about Frank Parker, I cannot agree that the US Pro in the 1950s was a minor event. It was a pro major.
     
  6. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    What about Ted Schroeder, Pancho´s doubles teammate? He won a bunch of majors and disappeared from the scene.What happened to him?
     
  7. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Never turned pro and became a businessman.
     
  8. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    The US Pro was not even held between 1952 and 1961. End of argument.
     
  9. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Yes it was held.
     
  10. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Just thinking, the 1940´s US generation (Gonzales,Kramer,Parker,Schroeder and Segura) may have been the greatest one till 1970´s.1930´s was excelent, too, with Perry,Vines,Riggs,Shields and, maybe, Kovacs.

    In the 50´s, other than Patty,Trabert and Seixas, I donñt think it can be comparable.In the 60´s, except for Ashe, no great US players, neither amateur neither pro (Olmedo was born in Peru).
     
  11. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Stan Smith was excellent for a while if you consider him starting in the 1960's.
     
  12. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    True but he won in the 70´s.He and Ashe are the forecourt of the 1970´s generation, that includes Connors,Tanner,Gerulaitis and Mc Enroe, as well as other excelent second level guys like Lutz,Riessen,Gorman,Richey,Gottfried,Stockton,Solomon and Dibbs.

    Instead, except for Mac and Jimbo, no great US players in the 80´s (Arias,Mayotte,Gilbert and Krickstein are good players but nothing else) and, of course, the 90´s were exceptional, with 4 great champions and some good secondary players.
     
  13. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki,

    I'm sorry but I must contradict you in a few points.

    Kovacs was better than Shields.

    Kovacs belong into the 1940s.

    For 1960s we also have McKinley and Ralston (No.4 in 1967 behind Laver, Rosewall and Gimeno).
     
  14. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    I have Newcombe as the best amateur of 1967, then Emerson.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2012
  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    You know that Ralston was a pro in 1967. I agree regarding Newcombe and Emerson as best amateurs.
     
  16. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Sorry I should have worded that better, do you think that Ralston in 1967 was a better player than the best amateurs, Newcombe and Emerson? Also, do you think that Ralston was better in 1967 than Stolle in the pros? I have Stolle as the fourth best professional player in 1967, and his level is probably just ahead of the top amateurs, but not by too much.
     
  17. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    My 1967 rankings:

    Laver
    Rosewall
    Gimeno
    Ralston
    Gonzalez, Stolle, Newcombe
    Emerson, Buchholz
    Roche

    Gonzalet is difficult to rank because he played rather little.

    Ralston was very strong. He beat Laver several times, f.i. in the prestigious BBC2 championships
     
  18. Dan Lobb

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    Only in the imagination.
     
  19. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    The late 1950's was the summit of tennis ability.
    You had the two greatest players ever, Hoad and Gonzales, playing 136 matches against each other over 24 months, other great players such as Rosewall, Sedgman, Trabert, and a supporting cast that included Segura, Cooper, Anderson, and among amateurs Fraser, Olmedo, Pietrangeli.
    The toughest top eleven ever.
    The only problem was the lack of television exposure, thanks to Kramer's policy of protecting the live gate.
     
  20. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    No, in reality.
     
  21. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I agree that the 1950s were the toughest decade. The pro troupe with the six Hall of Famers in the mid-end end-1950s was awesome.

    Maybe the competition around 1970 was also at that level.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2012
  22. Dan Lobb

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    By the same standard, the world pro champion of 1962 was Butch Bucholz, and the world pro champion of 1966 was Gimeno.
    Reality or fiction?
     
  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I have stated that, too.If we pick up the best 6 players, 1958 or 1959 may have been the best ever.If those 6 guys ( and their supporting cast) had been, say, 5 years younger, imagine with the addition of Rod Laver and Roy Emerson.The best to 8 ever.
     
  24. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I don´t knoe about Mc Kinley and Ralston.Dennis was considered a great talent that underachieved a lot.Mc Kinley, I don´t think he was a better player than Stolle, even if he had beaten ( quite surprisingly) Fred in 1963 Wimbledon.

    Wasn´t Frankie Shields the GranPa of model and actress Brooke Shields?
     
  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes,Newcombe won Wimbledon and Forest Hills.But Roy had taken Australia and Paris, so it was pretty close.
     
  26. kiki

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    Stolle, another underrated player.He was just as good if not better than Santana and Gimeno and, in 1967, probably as good as Roche,Ashe, Ralston and Roy Emerson ( no matter what status did they vae, pros or am)

    In any case, Newcombe reigned over the amateur fields in 1967.In 1968, He and Roche led the first WCT cast, the " Handsome eight" ( with the joke being at that time...What is Tony Roche doing in that group?).

    I think the former pros (Laver,Rosewall,Gimeno,Butcholz,Gonzales,Hoad) stayed with George Mc Call and his National Tennis League.But soon they´d join Hunt´s troop, since Mc Call´s tour faded away due to financial trouble.

    In his book, Laver aknowledges Mc Call and says he stayed with him for " loyalty".The guy was a one piece man, as it is said.
     
  27. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Gimeno is very underrated. Remember he played in the Pros during his best years and many, including Jack Kramer believe that he was the third best best in the world for a good portion of the 1960's. He is one of the few to defeat both Laver and Rosewall to win tournaments.

    Here's his hth against Emerson according to the ITF website.


    5 Record 3
    75 (03 Aug 1937) Age 75 (03 Nov 1936)
    Barcelona ESP Birth Place Blackbutt, QLD, Australia
    Residence Newport Beach, CA, USA
    Unknown Plays Right Handed
    Year Tournament Nation Surface Round Winner Score
    1968 Buenos Aires ARG Clay SF EMERSON 6-1 4-6 10-8 4-6 4-6
    1969 Cologne Cup GER FR GIMENO 6-3 19-17
    1970 WCT Vancouver CAN SF EMERSON 3-6 3-6
    1970 WCT Dallas USA FR GIMENO 6-2 6-3 6-2
    1970 Sydney AUS QF GIMENO 6-3 3-6 4-6 6-2 6-3
    1971 Canadian Open CAN 16 GIMENO 6-1 7-5
    1971 WCT Quebec CAN 16 EMERSON 6-7 6-7
    1971 WCT Chicago USA 16 GIMENO 1-6 6-3 7-6

    Here's his record against Stolle.
    2 Record 2
    75 (03 Aug 1937) Age 73 (08 Oct 1938)
    Barcelona ESP Birth Place Hornsby, NSW, Australia
    Residence North Miami Beach, FL, USA
    Unknown Plays Right Handed
    Year Tournament Nation Surface Round Winner Score
    1968 Los Angeles USA QF STOLLE 3-6 18-16 1-6
    1968 Beckenham GBR Grass SF STOLLE 3-6 6-3 2-6
    1968 Bournemouth GBR Clay QF GIMENO 6-2 6-1 6-0
    1970 WCT Vancouver CAN 16 GIMENO 6-4 6-3

    Against Santana
    1 Record 0
    75 (03 Aug 1937) Age 74 (10 May 1938)
    Barcelona ESP Birth Place Madrid, Spain
    Residence
    Unknown Plays Right Handed
    Year Tournament Nation Surface Round Winner Score
    1969 French Open FRA Clay 16 GIMENO 4-6 2-6 6-4 6-4 1-0 RET

    Gimeno won the French Open in 1972 and was runner up to Laver in the 1969 Australian.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2012
  28. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    It's not clear for me what you want to tell. Do you think that Gimeno was a weak world pro champion or not? In any case Gimeno beat both Laver and Rosewall both at Oklahoma and Barcelona. Both tournaments were labeled world pro champ.

    Or do you suggest that Gimeno was much better than Buchholz. Then you are right but Buchholz was still an excellent player.
     
  29. BobbyOne

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    Emerson was never a top eight player.
     
  30. BobbyOne

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    Yes, he was.
     
  31. BobbyOne

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    Stolle was never as good as Roche, Ashe and Gimeno. Remember that Gimeno even on grass was very strong: He beat Rosewall in the US Pro 1967, he beat Rosewall in the 1969 AO and he reached SF at Wimbledon 1970.
     
  32. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    pc1,

    ITF has "forgotten" many pro matches.

    In fact Gimeno beat Emerson 6:1 matches in 1968.
     
  33. pc1

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    Thanks BobbyOne.
     
  34. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I have seen quite a few times Gimeno, in the early 70´s.He may be not in his prime but yet a very complete player with few flaws.In Spain, due to his great sucess in the amateur field, Manolo Santana is considered to be the first great ever player, but many jounrlaists that followed up tennis in the 1960´s, as well as most of Gimeno´s pro peers, always considered him the better of the two.
     
  35. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    After Laver, he was the best amateur of the whole 1960´s.That alone, means , at least, being a top eight player.
     
  36. kiki

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    Stolle beat Roche in the FO final and Newcombe in the USO final, right?
     
  37. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Gimeno was never the "world professional champion", certainly not by winning Oklahoma City and Barcelona. These were not majors by any calculation. Neither was Cleveland. And Bucholz did not become the world professional champion by winning at Cleveland, regardless of the empty rhetoric of Jack March.
     
  38. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    To quote Rod Laver in writing about Gimeno and Santana "Many of us felt Andres was the better player, and it rankled Andres that with tennis' sudden popularity in Spain, he was virtually unknown."
     
  39. kiki

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    The pros like Laver always rooted for any of their family, specially when facing a shamateur ( like Santana).I also recall Laver telling how much did that RG 4 th round match between Gimeno and Santana meant to the pros in terms of that rivalry.

    last match I watched between thsoe 2 was an exo on fast indoor surface ( one of Gimeno´s best surfaces) and Santana won in 3 hard fought sets.He was in better shape, though.
     
  40. pc1

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    The quote was about not rooting for a player. The quote was that many thought Gimeno was the better player and if you just look at Open Era results, although he was past his best Gimeno was clearly better.
     
  41. kiki

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    Santana retired quite earlier than Gimeno.Thus, didn´t have a chance to increase his slams accounts.

    His last match was the 1970 final in Barcelona: beat the nº 1 in the world laver 6-4,6-3,6-4
     
  42. Dan Lobb

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    A young Roche, and Newcombe won the first set of that 1966 US final before spraining his ankle, which allowed Stolle to win. Not overwhelming.
     
  43. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Well, not many people can beat Roche and Newcombe the same year.Impressive Stolle.
     
  44. Dan Lobb

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    Actually, Stolle won the French title in 1965, and then finished runner-up to Emerson at Wimbledon for the second year in a row.
    Fred was a frequent bridesmaid at majors, usually to Emmo, who had the advantage of greater footspeed around the court, otherwise the two were about equal.
    Fred had great mental strength, and outlasted Santana in the Davis Cup final in 1965, his greatest win ever.
     
  45. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Stolle had a brilliant one-sided win over Emerson in the 1966 US Championships semi finals. That must have felt good after losing 5 major finals to Emerson.
     
  46. BobbyOne

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    Gimeno was clearly the No. 1 claycourt player in 1966 winning Oklahoma and Barcelona.
     
  47. dominikk1985

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    Does anyone else think that gonzalez is under appreciated?

    most younger guys have never even heard his name. of course it was a long time ago but other old timers are still talked about a lot more.
     
  48. pc1

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    There's no doubt Gonzalez is under appreciated. Here's a man who was the top player in the world for many years. He defeated Trabert, Segura, Sedgman, Rosewall, Hoad, Cooper, Anderson among others on tour who are some of the all time greats. He won over 130 tournaments and even when he was over 40 he was able to win in the Open Era defeating guys like Roche, Ashe, Stan Smith, Newcombe, Connors among others in the Open Era. The man was 40 in the year the Open Era started.

    He was smooth and a great athlete with possibly the greatest serve in the history of tennis. At worst Gonzalez is in the top five of all time and he very possibly is the greatest that ever lived. Jimmy Connors said that if he had one match for his life to play, he would pick Pancho Gonzalez to play it.

    It was a crime that Gonzalez was so low on that Tennis Channel List.
     
  49. Mustard

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    Pancho Gonzales has been massively underappreciated since he retired in 1974. It's because he turned professional at the age of 21, which meant that he was then banned from the mainstream majors for over 18 years as a result. Pete Sampras, for example, during an interview with Mary Carillo in the 1990s, had never heard of Gonzales, because Gonzales had never won Wimbledon. It's very unfair that players' reputations are hurt because they turned professional before the open era.

    Also, Gonzales alienated a load of people he came into contact with. He was feisty and angry a long time before Nastase, Connors and McEnroe appeared on the scene. Gonzales just had positive body language when he played, and had this explosive (yet controlled) anger in his game, an anger stemming from previous real or perceived injustices. Gonzales was like a gale force wind in the sport of tennis, with his temper. Trabert, in particular, disapproved of Gonzales' behaviour, while Gonzales clearly hated the fact that the newly turned pros were earning more money than the dominant player in the world (Gonzales). I think Gonzales' whole attitude has also contributed to him not being as well remembered these days as players like Laver and Rosewall.

    Laver once said of Gonzales "he gets angrier every time you play against him."

    Which rather shows how ill equipped they were for the task of determining the greatest players. They clearly don't get tennis history, if they are ranking Emerson above Gonzales by 11 places. Jimmy Connors saw Gonzales' never-say-die fight first hand when he practiced with him, and Gonzales' old friend and rival, Pancho Segura, was Connors' coach. With Segura, Lornie Kuhle, and Connors' feisty mother and grandmother helping him out, Jimmy had one heck of an entourage.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  50. Nadal_Power

    Nadal_Power Semi-Pro

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    Jimmy and Pancho played US Open doubles together
     

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