Goolagong vs Bueno

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by grafrules, Oct 4, 2008.

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Goolagong vs Bueno- who rates higher

  1. Goolagong

    40.0%
  2. Bueno

    60.0%
  1. grafrules

    grafrules Banned

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    Both of these great players won 7 slams. Bueno was a Court rival mainly, while Goolagong was a rival of Court, King, and then Evert. Who would you rate the higher of the two? Both were similar in many ways in that they were famous for their fluid and graceful movement and great shotmaking abilities.
     
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  2. rolandg

    rolandg Semi-Pro

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    I would rate Evonne slightly higher.
     
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  3. CEvertFan

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    I would rate Goolagong slightly higher because of her results against the quality of competition she had to face (i.e. Court, King, Evert, Navratilova). I've read that Bueno was even more graceful than Goolagong if that's possible. Maria must have been breathtaking to watch because when Evonne was having a good day she certainly was.

    Even though I chose Goolagong, Bueno's seven Slam titles are more prestigious than Goolagong's, as Maria won 4 US Opens and 3 Wimbledons to Evonne's 4 Australian Opens, 2 Wimbledons and 1 French Open. Bueno did make the finals of the AO and French once each, but lost both of those finals to Court.
     
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  4. Q&M son

    Q&M son Professional

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    Same to me.
     
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  5. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    I would partially agree with this. I voted for Goolagong because she had a greater variety of slam wins, winning 3 of the 4, even though I think Maria's 4 us opens weigh more than Evonne's 4 australians. I think Goolagong played in a much more competitive era though, having to deal with court, evert, king, and a whole host of other dangerous players. Goolagong also had more accomplishments over a longer period of time, least to me. This is not to discredit either woman, as they both had amazng careers, but Goolagong with the edge
     
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  6. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    I must say, that i never saw coherent videos of Bueno in her prime. Astute observers like Maskell or Bellamy give her high notes in the artistic department. Her service motion was swift and beautiful. Goolagongs backhand was a stroke of art, her walkabouts legendary.
    Buenos career was hurt by a severe illness (hepatitis). Since 1961 she never regained the easy game, she had before. Around 1960 she was undoubtedly the Nr.1 for 2 or 3 years - a position Goolagong never reached for a longer period. Therefore i go maybe with Bueno. But both were wonderful players.
     
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  7. TennisExpert

    TennisExpert New User

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    Goola, new number one in woman tennis
     
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  8. Wuornos

    Wuornos Professional

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    I voted for Maria Bueno. Hardly anything in it but I think her peak period running up to the French Open of 1965 just edges Evonne Goolagong run up to the US Open of 1975.

    The Performance ratings I calculate sees 10 points difference between with Bueno at 2755 at her peak and Goolagong 2745.

    Officially Goolagong hit the #1 spot briefly but the performance ratings see her as never having achieved this instead reigning for no less than 18 majors at #2 in the rankings with her first achieving this position after Wimbledon of 1973. Bueno first hit the top of the rankings after the US Open of 1959 and held the position for 8 majors.

    The discrepancy we see in relation to their success in Ranking terms compared with the narrow difference in the ratings says much about the quality of opposition in Goolagongs career compared with Buenos.
     
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  9. BTURNER

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    Definitely Bueno. She was number 1 for the better part of two years. And in my mind she probably would have kept the seeding in 61, and maybe 62, had severe illness cost her over an entire season, much like Seles stabbing in her best years. Ann Mortimer, and Darlene Hard got her slams and ranking (Court was still immature) That she came back to be competitive at the highest level ( # 3 in 62 and #2 in 63,64) should tell us a lot. Evonne on the merest fluke got to number 1 for two weeks.
     
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  10. thalivest

    thalivest Banned

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    Yes Bueno could have achieved alot more without unfortunate health problems. Goolagong was kept from achieving alot more by her own laziness and casual approach to tennis. Bueno also won all her slams at the big 2 of Wimbledon and the U.S Open, while Goolagong won over half of her 7 slams at the then non-slam that was the Australian Open back then and never won the U.S Open. There is no comparision.

    I just noticed almost everyone voted for Goolagong. That surpises me alot.
     
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  11. Tomaz Bellucci

    Tomaz Bellucci Rookie

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    I'm just a little biased!!!
     
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  12. BTURNER

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    Bumping for the hell of it. We ought to keep more women's threads going on the front page.
     
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  13. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    BTURNER,

    You're right, we should have more Women's threads active.

    I suppose I would go with Goolagong. I loved watching Evonne play. Evonne did win a few year end finals which was very prestigious and was in the finals of many majors despite losing to greats like Evert, King, Court and Navratilova.
     
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  14. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I've seen them both play. Not that it is relevant because Goolagong was in her prime, and Bueno about 10-12 years past her prime in a team tennis match.

    I voted for Bueno because of what I've read about her abilities and her dominance over the women's game for a short time. I didn't know about her illness, but, that would explain her seemingly 2 separate careers. Goolagong was a great player during a time of tough competition, but, I can't say that Goolagong was ever dominant.
     
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  15. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    For those not in the know, here is a quote from her website


    "In 1961 she arrived in Paris feverish and feeling tired. The trouble was not immediately diagnosed and she was allowed to go on exercising for a couple of hours a day.

    Her condition worsened, the illness turned out to be hepatitis and upon her return home to Brazil she was confined to bed for eight months, during which her weight dropped by 24 lbs. Already slender, she sank below eight stones and looked just skin and bone.

    Her recovery was to prove slow but nevertheless certain and by February 1962, Maria had her sights set, once again, on Wimbledon. It was an anxious and worrying time for her as she struggled to regain her fitness and form.

    Major titles were to prove elusive that year, with Maria losing to Margaret Smith in the Italian finals after a thrilling match that showed her to be capable of her best, then falling to the clever Czech housewife, Vera Sukova at Wimbledon and again to Margaret at Forest Hills, both at the semi-final stages.

    A year later, however, Maria won again at Forest Hills, beating
    Margaret 7-5 6-4 to prove she really was back at her very best...."
    Then in1965, "Maria was increasingly aware that her left knee was growing ever more painful. In the final of the Australian 1965 final it led to severe cramp which, in turn caused further damage and forced her to default when Margaret was leading 5-7 6-4 5-2 in their final...Just before Christmas that year Maria entered the D Pedro II Hospital in Sâo Paulo where João Di Vicenzo, one of Brazil’s leading orthopaedic surgeons, took 140 minutes to remove two menisci from her left knee"

    after about six months she was working her way toward form and got colic after gall stones. Not a lucky champion!
     
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  16. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    One of the first women´s matches I watched was a clear post prime but yet with that unique style that made Maria Esther Bueno one of the most unique players, men or women, that have played this game.

    it is hard to decide between Bueno,Goolagong and the other two great shotmakers, Mandlikova and Hingis because the four of them belong to a very special breed.Each had a unique vision and execution of the game, but, from what I have watched I am sure we will never see a Bueno or a Goolagong again.I hope to be wrong.
     
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  17. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    People undervalue Bueno's competition a tad. In her first Open she beat consecutively an aging Louise Brough, Darlene Hard and Christine Truman. In '63 she beat consecutively an immature nancy Richey, Hayden-Jones then Court. In 66 it was Casals then Richey. At wimbledon '64 it was an already dangerous King then Court, King again the following year to get to the final. At the French she beat Leslie Turner in the semis. the field was weaker no doubt, but these names are not cheese puffs.

    I just don't feel there was a champion's heart and mind in Evonne and her reaching number one was more fluke than reality. Bueno had those champion qualities and 2-3 years at the top is a lot different than 2-3 weeks or months. but for misfortune it might have been a lot longer in total weeks if not streaks of weeks. I see Court and Bueno as switch back and forth throughout the mid and late 60's with King charging behind until around '69.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
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  18. granddog29

    granddog29 Banned

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    Goolagong has 19 slam finals. I dont remember how many Bueno reached but it is less than that. Edge Goolagong.

    70 titles to 68. Basically tie.

    Both have 7 slams. Tie.


    I rate Bueno higher there. The biggest and most important reason by far is she was recognized as the Worlds #1 player, or atleast a share of it 4 different times- 1959, 1960, 1964, 1966. Goolagong was only one arguably the Worlds best player- 1971. That is a huge difference. Her reaching #1 for 2 weeks in 1976 (not learnt until many years later) was indeed a fluke. While she was a good rival for Chris, there was never a point even briefly she was considered better, certainly since the computer rankings began in 1975 onwards. Bueno on the other hand was the best player in the World before Court, regained status as the best player in the World over Court briefly by winning 63 U.S Open and 64 Wimbledon finals over Court, then winning the 64 U.S Open (where Court lost in the quarters) as well, and arguably regained it again in 1966 already past her prime (although that was a close year with King, and even the by years end absent Court, also having a strong case).

    The other reason is the Australian Open situation in the 70s. 4 of Goolagong's 7 majors came there. Given the context of the event at the time those have to be diminished somewhat. Bueno won all 7 of her majors at Wimbledon and the U.S Open. Unlike today those were by FAR the big 2 events at the time. Goolagong only won those two events 2 times combined, and never won the U.S Open.

    Both played in tough eras. Bueno had to deal with peak Court, King, Jones, Richey, Hard, and others. Goolagong had to deal wth Court, King, Evert, Wade, Navratilova, and other dangerous players like Casals, Stove, Morozova, Barker, Melville, Turnbull, Richey.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
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  19. Phoenix1983

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    Bueno.

    Goolagong won 4 of her slams at the AO which was weaker in those days.
     
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  20. granddog29

    granddog29 Banned

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    I am very surprised that Goolagong was leading this poll before it was bumped back up. Lets just put it this way. If Goolagong can be considered better than Bueno with over half of her slams in Australian, than Court should be the female GOAT, no questions asked.
     
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  21. Xavier G

    Xavier G Semi-Pro

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    It's very, very close between these two but I gave the vote to Bueno. I think the years she had as number 1 just swayed it, though Evonne won a GS on clay. Maria's 3 Wimbledon and 4 US Championships just looks a little more impressive. Incidentally, Maria travelled to the Australian Championships in 1960 and 1965 as reigning Wimbledon and US champion and lost both times to Margaret Smith (Court), losing in the QF, I think, in 1960 and retiring from the final in 1965 when 5-2 down in the final set.

    Evonne beat young but still impressive Chrissie Evert in the 1974 AO final and beat a pre-prime Martina N in 1975, so even though the AO was weaker back then, there were still some good players competing and some good finals.

    But yeah, I just give the vote to Maria.
     
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  22. granddog29

    granddog29 Banned

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    Evonne was the better clay courter. Although Maria could play on clay and didnt win a big title on it mostly since she lost some great battles with Margaret.

    Maria definitely the greater and more dominating grass courter, despite that Evonne was also a great grass courter, and that was her best surface.

    Indoors they were close, maybe a bit to Maria there.

    I wonder who would have been the better hard courter had they been more prominent then.
     
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  23. DMP

    DMP Semi-Pro

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    I am a huge Goolagong fan, in fact she is my absolutely favourite player, but I would choose Bueno for the reasons many others have given. The clinching argument, for me, was that Bueno became '"the" one to beat, whereas Evonne was really only ever 'one to beat'.

    However....

    In the competition for the most graceful player, in their play and in grace under pressure, Evonne is the greatest in my lifetime, I am pleased to say:)

    I can also say that I saw her in the flesh at, I think the 1971 Surrey Lawn Tennis championship when she had just come from winning the French. When I say in the flesh I mean she was walking around the grounds. I can tell you that she was very pretty, with a very nice smile. That may explain my fandom!
     
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  24. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Bueno had class, charm and elegance.Goolagong added her exotic beauty to it.I always wished to see Bueno vs Goolagong, Goolagong vs Mandlikova and Mandlikova vs Hingis,...never to be
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
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  25. AngieB

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    Clearly Maria Bueno but I like how well Evonne competed against Chris, especially her 1980 Wimbledon win. Evonne was intergenerational having Court/King on one end, then Evert/Navratilova/Austin on the back end. Tough competition for her.

    Tennis fans were fortunate to have witnessed Maria and Evonne grace the lawns. Beautiful tennis.

    AngieB
     
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  26. bahamasboy32

    bahamasboy32 Banned

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    I dont get why this poll is even close. I love Evonne but she is not even in Maria's league. 3 non Australian slams and 4 Australian slams is the equivalent of 4 or 5 slams back then at best. Maria won 7 despite almost never playing the Australian and French. Those werent her best surfaces but she would still probably have 9 or 10 then otherwise. Yes both have 7 but looking at circumstances they couldnt be anymore different 7 from each other.

    plus like others said Bueno spent alot of time at #1. Goolagong was never a #1 caliber player. She won alot of big events but sprinkled out over time, and was always in the shadow of atleast 1 of Court, King, Evert, while Bueno was the best for periods of time.
     
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  27. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    both had a unique passion for the game.They just love to play the way musicians just love to play.

    Maria Esther had great courage and fought like a horse to overcome her problems.Evonne never lost her self confidence and saved a couple of tricks for her 1980 Wimbly.
     
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  28. bahamasboy32

    bahamasboy32 Banned

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    Both were beautiful to watch, unique, special, and great players. You have to admit though in every sense objectively speaking Bueno was the "greater" player though. Who was more graceful, beautiful to watch, talented, is debateable but Goolagong simply did not equal Bueno's success.
     
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  29. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I agree in overall terms.But Bueno didn´t face young Chrssie and young Evonne and " only" faced Court and King ( and also Richey,Jones and Wade, who are not that great champs anyway)...Evonne, as Angie B mentioned, played prime Court,King,Evert,Navratilova and Austin.

    As I said, before 1980 Wimbledon semis, if somebody had bet on Evonne beating first Tracy and next Evert, he´d be taken by a fool.Tracy had won the USO and the Avon Finals ( similar to WCT Finals) and was exhuding awesome self confidence ( which may have been her biggest weapon on court); Chris had demolished the field at RG and was ready to regain her status as number one.She showed that by beating Navratilova at the W semis and later Austin and Mandlikova at the USO semis and Finals.1980 Evert was one of the best if not the best ever version of Chris.She completely reversed the tide of 1979 when Martina at Wimbledon and Austin at Flushing Meadows had completely owned her...
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2014
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  30. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Excuse me the bracket but I came to the conclusion that Evert and Connors had so much paralel careers:
    They showed their early greatness in 73 and their best years were 74 and 76.Got owned in 75 and 77 and declined against Borg and Navratilova but also against Austin and Mc Enroe in 78,79,80,81 .In spite of that, they could still win the 78 US Open ( helped by Borg´s injury but also by Navratilova being surprisingly beaten by then unknown Pam Shriver in her semi)However, they regained some luster in 1980, with Evert winning at RG and the US Open and Connors winning the WCT Finals.Connors was not as competitive as Evert, however in 80 and 81 but Chris was not as dominating as her old fiancee in 82 and 83...Connors last good year being 84 and Evert´s 86.However, Connors was 4 years older than Evert so that the pattern of years once they were already veteran seems very logical to me.
     
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  31. bahamasboy32

    bahamasboy32 Banned

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    Well I dont really feel Goolagong had any tougher competition. Goolagong's prime was 1971 to 1976, her amazing and emotional 1980 Wimbledon title aside. Bueno's was 1960 to 1966 about.

    Goolagong faced prime Court in 1971, while King was in a slump, multiple knee surgeries and going 11 slams without winning one. Then when King returned to a force again at the 71 U.S Open after Court was out for over a year. The only year she faced both strong was 1973. Then Evert emerged in 1974 after Court and King were in their 30s and semi retired, and Evert was really her only big competition the next few years. Navratilova was no threat at that point, and Wade like you said is not that great of champ anyway.

    Bueno faced Court at her best almost that whole time and facing Court at a time 3 of the 4 majors are on grass is tougher than facing young Evert when 2 of the 4 majors are on grass. We will say Evert is the tougher clay opponent and Court the tougher grass, which would still mean Bueno had it tougher as 75% of the majors in Bueno-Court time were on grass, and 50% in Evert and Goolagong on grass. She also faced a young emerging King in 64-66. Richey, Jones, Wade, Turner, Hard, types are only slightly great players but there were more of them in the early to mid 60s, while in the mid 70s there was really only one of those type of players behind Goolagong and Evert- Wade. By the late 70s you had people like Austin and Navratilova emerging but Goolagong wasnt really a big contender by then anyway, even though she won that last Wimbledon which shocked everyone in 1980.
     
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  32. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    That 1980 Wimbledon was shocking in all aspects.

    Court was still a major factor till 75 and Navratilova was already a top player by 1977.There were also Reid,Casals,Ruzici ( on clay) Barker and Richey around when Goolagong was hitting her prime, not to mention King and Evert.

    I do think Evonne had a deeper field to play against but, it remains true what you mentioned about how young Court was extremely tough on grass ( 3 out of 4 slams), which enhances the amazing tennis of Bueno.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
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  33. BTURNER

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    She emerged earlier than Court in the late 50's and her peak years were really ending ( thanks to injury) as King was blossoming.

    I do think Evonne had it tougher. She was surrounded by GOAT candidates at both ends who competed well on all surfaces. Life was also a little more complicated because of the politics with the traditional tour, team tennis, and the new WTA sucking pieces of the talent into different directions. You actually had options and decisions to make, that Bueno did not.
     
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  34. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    which is the most exciting of the four fairies ?
     
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  35. ScentOfDefeat

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    Both ladies have the coolest names in women's tennis.
     
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  36. PDJ

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    I absolutely agree that Maria had the heart & soul of a champion. Knowing her very well, she still does. If you say "former Wimbledon Champion" to her, she will correct you by dropping "former" from the sentence. The inference being, Once a Wimbledon champion, ALWAYS a Wimbledon champion.:)
     
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  37. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    History has done Esther big dammage.Her second half of the 60´s was plagued with real serious health problems with no time to recover ( it is not the case of Seles post stabbing).

    Goolagong was the second best overall player in a decade that included Evert,Court,King and Navratilova and that speaks volume, while Bueno had Court and King during their primes plus Hard,Gibson,Jones which are all very accomplished champions.

    Both were extremely talented and a 1971 match pitting both of them ( Bueno, if healthy would have been 32 and still competitive) is the match I definitely would want to watch talking about that decade.

    I have seen both, and I just can´t figure out who could win but Bueno was tougher mentally and I´d give her a slight but solid edge.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2014
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  38. PDJ

    PDJ Hall of Fame

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    I would say Maria would win more often. Only because losing would hurt her more. But what a match up- few would match the artistery of either ladies, Lenglen aside
     
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