Got beat by a guy hitting slice forehands

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Wuppy, Jul 14, 2012.

  1. Wuppy

    Wuppy Professional

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    Was in a match today against a pusher who stood back and hit slice backhands and forehands. 3 set match, he hit a grand total of 5 winners, one of which was a lob. All other points he got were either my double-faults or my other UEs. Beat him 6-1 in the first set, in the middle of the second set I became exhausted and he beat me 6-3 then he won 6-1 in the final set. I was so exhausted in the third that I couldn't remember the scores and double-faulted four straight times in the last game.

    He said that in his previous match his wife came to watch and she counted a 45-shot rally he apparently had with another pusher. I guess they just stood back and hit slices to each other endlessly.

    The only winners I hit off him were ones where I put it in the corners. Unfortuantely at 3.5 I'm not good enough to consistently hit corners and probably half the points I lost were hitting the ball slightly wide or long.

    I find myself losing to this type of player a LOT. Obviously I need consistency but it seems like if you want to beat a pusher you really need to be better than he is by 0.5 or so. Two 3.5s going at it, one who's aggressive but not consistent and the other who is consistent but not aggressive.. the non-aggressive guy will win on the other's UEs. And clearly I don't have the stamina to stand there hitting 45-shot rallys with a-holes who hit forehand slices on every shot.

    I mean really, what kind of man hits forehand slices regularly? Is that really something they're proud of? Hey honey, I beat this guy who was running me all over. I hit slices to him until the eventually missed his winning shots by 3 inches.

    I think to myself, "What would Federer do to this guy?" Other than ace him repeatedly, Fed would start running him back and forth and then hit a 100mph forehand to the corner. I can't do that though.
     
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  2. Wuppy

    Wuppy Professional

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    #2
  3. gamerx52986

    gamerx52986 Rookie

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    I have had similar matches four times this year in my summer league. Played and lost to guys who hit slice everything including serve. I should have been able to adjust my game accordingly but I think that I became more irritated than anything. Im playing at the 3.5 level and what surprised me the most is that they hit slice everything. Ive played 3.0 players that hit with more variety and only slightly less consistency. However these guys use that slice game quite well on the har-tru courts I play on.
     
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  4. Failed

    Failed Semi-Pro

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    If it was just slices that he hit from both sides I wonder why you simply did not hit a high moon ball either to his forehand or backhand and get to the net. If you do not know how to perform a nice high topspin ball, then you better should start learning.

    You say you did not have the stamina. That makes him the fitter player, which means that he has worked more on his physique than you have. 5.0+ players have no shame in hitting slice shots if it works for them. Basically what you are saying that you can't win a match unless your opponent makes more UEs than you, which basically makes you a pusher in his eyes.

    I am a fan of the forehand and backhand slice myself and I like to hit them against players who
    A. Can't produce their own pace
    B. Have an extreme grip
    C. Who try to blast winners from the baseline

    I can't obviously use it against players who build up their points wisely and finish the point at the net. On those occasions I usually keep the ball in play with heavy topspin and get to the net if such an opportunity arises. Trust me, you will see forehand and backhand slices at all levels. Good players will quickly figure out what your weakness is, and they are not afraid to play a "pushy" style if it wins them more points.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2012
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  5. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    You need to develop a reliable offense where you are moving him around. You don't necessarily have to hit the ball really hard. Placement is the key. Work on your net game, and especially your overhead. In fact, you'll probably need to stand further behind the net than usual because there's a really good chance that the next shot you'll get will be an overhead. If you learn to execute this strategy, you'll look forward to playing pushers.
     
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  6. TennisFan1337

    TennisFan1337 New User

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    As you're 3.5 you might be in a not-so-good situation. I don't know about your country's rating system and how you play, but I can give a few hints.

    Slices are low powered and if not executed correctly very easy to attack them. When you get the chance, run around to the forehand and attack. Shorten the points as you can't withstand the long rallies physically.

    So shorten the points - attack his serve, his weaker slices, run around to the forehand and what's very important: get to the net. He can't get good passing shots with slices, so after an attacking shot at the service line area, transfer to the net for an easy volley or overhead.

    Move him to side to side, put him on the defensive. Avoid long rallies that can exhaust you: if you see the opportunity, close the point out. If you get him moving, you can get him exhausted, thus he will make more UEs and the match will be easier for you to win.

    And for the last thing I'd say is the serve - hit in solid first serves: flat, but vary it from backhand to forehand and body. If you get a good 1st serve, attack the return and if possible get to the net. Get your 1st serve percentage up.

    I wish you luck!
     
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  7. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    I'm also a 3.5. I've become very good at beating these people. In my area, these people play what we call "old man tennis".

    You cannot hit through these players. It is impossible. They are master of pace absorption and redirection. So don't even try it.

    First, a slice is only optimally effective if the incoming ball has pace and spin. So give him NO pace. Force him to generate his own pace and his own spin. This alone will draw floaters and sitters. You simply take a very slow, very easy stroke.

    Second, you need to make a choice as to what his weaker side is. Which side is he able to most direct and control? Which side is the most predictable and yields the most floaters or sitters? All you do the entire game is rally to his weaker side. You don't RUN a pusher left to right. They *like* it. It brings out the best in them.

    Lastly, you need one weapon. A dropshot / lob (rope-a-dope) combo or a net putaway, or hitting a short sitter into a corner. You must have one of those. If you don't have one of these weapons, you'll lose. So pick a weapon and develop it. For me, hitting the short sitter into a corner was the weapon I chose.

    Here's an example of how my rallies with the people go:

    mightyrick: Serve
    slicer: slice forehand return
    mightyrick: slow, no-pace shot to slicer's backhand near baseline
    slicer: backhand slice a few feet from baseline
    mightyrick: slow, no-pace shot to slicer's backhand near baseline
    slicer: backhand slice a few feet from baseline
    mightyrick: slow, no-pace shot to slicer's backhand near baseline
    slicer: backhand slice short-sitter to no man's land
    mightyrick: medium-pace flat forehand to slicer's forehand corner
    (if he gets it back, repeat the process)

    Eventually I gassed him out after a set and all of these corner shots were outright winners or unforced errors on his part. Yes, it is boring, slow tennis. But it is very high-percentage tennis. And this is what you need to play against "old man tennis".

    Develop one of those weapons, if you don't have any! Good luck!
     
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  8. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    i even know a 4.0 guy that plays only slices. but he hits the slice fairly hard but still not enough to hit clean winners. he can hit passing shots with slices too and can run all day long.

    Only bad thing with this is that he cheats. He often cheats on the service calls. he will call Aces and close serves that he can't return OUT. I guess that is only way he can win matches but it is pretty bush league.
     
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  9. Magnetite

    Magnetite Professional

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    To be honest, you need to work on your fitness.

    If you trashed him in the first set, it means you already know how to beat him, except your level of fitness is not what it should be.
     
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  10. TTMR

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    I love this. What kind of man starts gasping for air from hitting low paced balls back and forth?
     
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  11. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Start with the basics. Your feet. Each shot you should step more into the court when dealing with no pace slicers. He is not going to hit through you, so you know that wont be an issue. So after each shot make sure to step in closer by a few feet. This will take his time away and makes winning the points a lot easier. You very well may end up at the net this way sometimes, but that needs to happen anyway against these players.
     
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  12. 1HBH Rocks

    1HBH Rocks Semi-Pro

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    Your biggest issue lies in your head, not in your hands. A good offensive player is first and foremost a smart guy and that can work, even at the lower levels of the game. I thought you'd knew it, but you define a player as offensive when his game plan -- or at least playing style if he doesn't have any sort of plan -- revolves mainly around hitting above average quality shot with some consistency. In short, he just needs to reliably hit a little better than the usual player of his playing level; he's basically called offensive because he tries to optimize his winning chances mainly by lowering his opponent's efficiency and because his best playing abilities lies in hitting quality shots relative to his playing level. Note what's the important part: lowering his opponent's efficiency.

    If you can't draw weak replies, affect his ball placement, force him into certain playing patterns he tries to avoid, or get him out of position, you're not being offensive properly -- i.e. something's wrong!

    So, let's change a little how you understand tennis so that you try something else the following time. Tennis is about your feet, not your hands; you should be thinking about figuring out a way to get one step ahead of your opponent during every rally. You need to be in good position when your opponent isn't fully recovered -- the next shot you will strike typically leads to a poor reply, a mistake or downright winner, but even if the last two are preferable, the first one will do the job any day. That's what you should be trying to do. Varying trajectories, forcing your opponent to adapt to greater differences in contact point and footwork is a good idea, but that's accessory to your main goal: getting ahead of him in positioning. You use these tactics just so you can help yourself move the ball better -- tennis isn't just about striking the ball and your opponent showed it to you in the last two sets.


    Now, as for Federer, his 100mph forehand is a wonderful shot for sure, but it's not what makes the point. What makes the point is everything that went on before he got to go airborne and demolish the ball: often, it's a combination of hard hitting and of a knifing slice that forces a reply that isn't as well struck as usual... Regardless of how he does it, what's important in the whole rally isn't really what shot he used, but why he used it. A slice for instance does quite a few things: it typically forces a lower contact point; you give your opponent less pace to work with; it lengthens the court to be covered vertically (you bring him forward). But, in itself, it's not always useful. As you get better, players are better able to attack them and as it allows them inside the court, it creates for them an offensive option (with equal striking power, they cut on time due to the shorter distance). However, if you hit a bigger shot or a loopy one and then switch for a good slice, you now force adaptation and it's this part which is the least well mastered at the amateur level.
     
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  13. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    This is the key to the whole thing. The pusher wins through consistency. They will rarely miss if given fairly simple balls. And few people will beat a pusher at the consistency game. Only a better pusher generally does that.

    To beat a pusher, you need a consistent weapon and patience. The weapon doesn't have to be a 100mph crushing forehand or a super fancy weapon. It doesn't need to do crushing damage. It just needs to be something that puts the pusher in an uncomfortable situation.

    If someone has problems hitting into the corner with pace, then slow it down. There's no need to hit it hard. The pusher has no weapons he can beat you with. Just hit the weapon shot, recover, and get ready to repeat.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2012
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  14. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    I've had success with serve and volley with these guys. If you have even a decent serve, I find they don't have the topspin return to put it at your feet and are not that good hitting passing shot winners. I've done it on both first and second serves and find it's often more effective on the second if you can get it to kick up a bit.
     
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  15. SStrikerR

    SStrikerR Hall of Fame

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    Just for the record, I watched a d2 tennis match a few months ago, and one #1 singles player player hit slice forehands 90% of the time, with the exception of passing shots. Believe me, his topspin forehand was consistent and strong, he just stuck with the slices because his gameplan with it worked very well. The other guy tried blasting the ball all the time, and made a crazy amount of errors. Some would call it pushing I suppose, but considering that hitting the slice rewarded him with an error on most points and he won 6-1, 6-2...not so much.
     
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  16. SeriousSummer

    SeriousSummer New User

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    If I had a choice between only hitting forehand slices or being afraid to come to the net, I'd choose hitting the slice.
     
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  17. Wallio1125

    Wallio1125 New User

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    I really think this is the smartest advice. A pusher cant attack you even if their life depends on it. Practice the overheads,playing a pusher you are bound to hit overheads to finish points. Good Luck!!
     
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  18. Larrysümmers

    Larrysümmers Hall of Fame

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    all ya gotta do is hit the ball over the net
     
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  19. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    If you aren't able to punish him for staying back and hitting slice groundstrokes, why should he quit doing it? What would it gain him to hit topspin or flat?
    Slice is only a disadvantage if you are able to take the slower bounce and punish it with your groundstrokes or on passing shots where there is less margin for error hitting a ball hard and keeping it within the court.
    Unless you are Jimmy Connors, able to beat Ken Rosewall decisively in the finals of Wimbledon, give the slice shot the respect it deserves. The rest is just the quality of the players themselves.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2012
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  20. tank_job

    tank_job Banned

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    If you got beat by a guy hitting slice forehands, try hitting normal forehands instead.
     
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  21. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    On top of doing S&V, how about giving him some drop shots and then lob? If the drop shot is done with some angle I doubt this guy can counter slice or drop you back like Nadal.
     
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  22. guitarplayer

    guitarplayer Guest

    I was in a 4.5 tournament 2 weeks ago. My quarter final match was against a pusher. He actually hit the ball hard with underspin. the ball came low and fast...and skidded or stayed low. It was much faster than the heavier topspin players I am used to. Reduced my reaction time. He went up 3-0. I realized trying to hit my hard topspin forehands with these low fast balls created errors on my part. It was 98 degrees and about 110 on the court. I knew I had to change my game plan and make him work and wear him down.

    I returned many of his low slices with slices of my own. Decided to move him up and back, as that wears you down much faster than side to side. So I would slice a drop shot and bring him up. Then I would lob or pass. I got it tied up at 4 all. He went on to win the first set 6-4. However, my plan was paying off as he was wearing down. I continued this through the first 3 games of the second. I was up 3-0 and he was winded. His slices no longer had the bite and became sitters that I was able to smack with heavy topspin. I won the second 6-1. At 3-0 in the third, he could not continue. It worked, just be patient.

    Here was the results in the paper.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 14, 2012
    #22
  23. halalula1234

    halalula1234 Professional

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    I hate these type of players i dont even know why they play tennis....thats not tennis!
     
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  24. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Wait, he played smarter than you and beat you and he's an "a-hole"?

    Wow, just wow!

    Maybe work on your stamina or work on being more consistent than him? Consistency is what wins tennis matches. You're not Federer and you never will be no matter how hard you try. Better to become a more consistent player so you can beat guys like this in the future. And maybe start working on your forehand slice. :)
     
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  25. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Yes, that is tennis. Tennis is out-smarting your opponent and hitting the ball so that it doesn't come back into the court, no matter how long that may take. Just because you don't see pros doing it on TV doesn't mean it's not tennis.
     
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  26. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    Dude,

    That's painful to experience the first couple of times. :) I went through that. I've also watched others get done that way. Don't worry...I've watched 4.5's lose to people like that. My only suggestion is to learn an all court game. I'm not perfect at it but that's what I've tried to do. I'm one of those guys that will slice a ton if I think you don't like it. In doubles in mixed if the man is better server than I, I will make sure he serves in the sun and I will throw up lobs until his retna burns and falls on the ground. :) So I will do just about anything "legal" to win a match. The guy actually should be proud if he ran you in the ground. What people don't realize about tennis is this. Legs can be just as much of a weapon as a serve or a forehand. If he can hit 45 shots to win a point and you can't, then it's still the same result as you banging out a 120mph serve down the T. Now your way is more efficient in the end but nonetheless...the same result. Good luck in the future.


     
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  27. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    Sure it is. The ball is coming back over the net. Why should he give you the ball you want to hit when you are constantly trying to give him something he can't hit back? That doesn't make any sense. I hear it all the time. "He just keeps the ball in play"....that is the dumbest thing you can say in tennis. I don't know a sport that doesn't have offense and defense and in some cases in even other sports...your defense even wins you games. What year was it the Ravens won the Superbowl. They spent most of the game playing just like this guy played you in Tennis. :) Think the Buccaneers also won a Superbowl playing defense.


     
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  28. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    Would you be insulted if you got passed clean by slice forehand at net ?
     
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  29. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    C'mon man. Please don't act like you don't know why people can't stand playing pushers. Yes, it is tennis. But it isn't FUN tennis and it isn't GOOD tennis. It is garbage tennis. It is tennis where after the match, you say to yourself... "I spend 20 dollars to play someone like this???"

    The problem is that the professional pusher does not go for any shots when they have a chance. Nobody faults a player for "getting a ball back" when they're on the run. It's a guy who has an obvious play on a ball, but elects to just dink or lob it back.

    It isn't dumb to despise these kinds of players. They are frustrating and most of us PAY MONEY and end up having to play these people. Some months, I have to play four pushers to get to a normal player. So frustrating.
     
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  30. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    I second this strategy. With pushers or guys that don't hit with much pace, you can ruin their consistency strategy by serving and volleying AND by returning and volleying. They can't hit slices to you at the baseline all day long if you're never at the baseline! Come into the net and angle off a volley or hit a drop volley they can't get to. Force them to have to pass you with pace. They will likely start making errors. But you'll also have to work on your overhead because most of these pushers have great lobs.
     
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  31. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Wait, isn't the objective of playing tennis matches to win the match? If "getting the ball back" wins matches, doesn't that meet the objective of playing tennis matches?

    There's nothing wrong with playing it safe. It's called "percentage tennis". Only go for winners if you're reasonably sure you can make them. If not, why go for them and beat yourself? And if you can consistently hit winners, you'd be playing on the ATP Tour. :shock:
     
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  32. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    No, my objective of playing tennis -- which is a game -- is to have fun. I am a recreational player. I do this for enjoyment. I also like to win, as well. But that isn't the primary component of why I play tennis.
     
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  33. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    But it may be for your opponent. Some guys just want to win. You can't really criticize them for having a philosophy different than yours. And if you lose, you really don't have anything to complain about, right? Your opponent was trying to win more than you were.
     
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  34. Failed

    Failed Semi-Pro

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    And even if we do not see them doing it on TV it doesn't mean that it is because its a "cheap" strategy but it simply does not work on that level anymore. And the fact is, if on on a pro level on a certain day just hitting slices would win someone a match, the person wouldn't hesitate to use the slices.
     
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  35. vil

    vil Semi-Pro

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    If you ever want to get to higher levels in tennis, you have to get through these obstacles called pushers. They stand in your way, just to remind you, you are not the player, you think you are. Plus makes you realise how many holes are still in your game. I know it's frustrating. You just had a few lessons with your coach,who told you how great your topspin forehand looks, blah blah, etc.. and next day you will lose to a guy who just piddle paddle balls over the net, with no style or technique, clumsily holding his racket but gets just about every ball back. Of course, this will have to affect you mentally and eventually you fall apart. These type of players should be the reason why you want to improve your tennis and become more versatile player who can switch to plan b or c or d. Pushers have no plans apart from getting the ball back.
    Think about it.
     
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  36. Avles

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    Yes, it is pretty dumb. You're a 3.5, they're 3.5s. You all play at roughly the same level. They are playing by the same rules as you. So what is there to despise?

    As far as paying money goes-- if you were paying that money directly to your opponents so they would show you a good time on the courts, you'd have all the right in the world to complain. I presume you're not doing that. Instead you're paying for the opportunity to compete with players at your level-- and so are they.

    If you want to play better players, improve your level of play. If you don't want to spend money to play "pushers," play social tennis.

    Or you could just try to have fun no matter what kind of player you're against. It might sound corny, but I honestly can't remember ever playing tennis and not having fun.
     
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  37. Swissv2

    Swissv2 Hall of Fame

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    I have a similar story to you. played a chap yesterday that does exclusive slices and push shots, with no pace. His slice spun sideways. Instead of the front to back strategy you used (he was very quick, and easily got to the ball), I would be patient and move him to his forehand side, then punish his backhand side whenever I had the window of opportunity. His backhand side was weak, the ball popping up in the air leaving me a short ball to come in and finish the point.

    nice game Rodney!
     
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  38. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    I regularly play with two guys who only hit slice from both sides (well one guy can hit topspin FHs but is loath to do so). The trick with both these guys is to NOT hit balls that bounce up, such as balls with lots of top, particularly to the FH side because that makes hitting the slice much easier for them. (On the BH side it is easier to slice off a low ball.) If I keep the ball low to their FH, I see a lot more errors and soft balls.

    One more note: you have to be careful with your volleys because they leave your racquet at a lower angle than you expect.
     
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  39. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    I remember the first time I played a guy who hit SLICE off the forehand. I was like, "I didn't even think there was such a thing as sliced forehands." But he was a good player and beat me.

    So why do we find it more annoying to lose to a player like this? I think it's because we know that to an observer we both look like bad players. We don't mind losing if we look good losing.
     
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  40. pkshooter

    pkshooter Semi-Pro

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    Hate this type of player too... Thing is most of these types in my area are just real nice grandpa types. Playing with one of these people will ruin my forehand for weeks.
     
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  41. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    It really should not ruin your forehand to play pushers. You have all day to setup and move the ball around. There is a guy who slices like crazy and is really good in my club. He knows I love pace, so he gives me none, and that is ok. I can still drive the balls to the corners and crash the net behind those shots. That is how I have to play him. He can get you on a string chasing down all kinds of shots so you have to have the footowork and variety to counter that.

    A lot of people complain about it, but it works for him because he has incredible hands and knows the game so well. He knows everyone sees topspin and rarely sees slice anymore. And that is why he does it.
     
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  42. sundaypunch

    sundaypunch Hall of Fame

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    Wife - "How did your match go?"

    Wuppy - "I lost. The guy was a terrible player"

    Wife - "How did you lose then?"

    Wuppy - "He wouldn't hit the ball the way I wanted him to"
     
    #42
  43. Frank Silbermann

    Frank Silbermann Professional

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    Actually, what's happening is he has 4.0 level slices and you have 3.5 level drives. To win with slices they have to be a half level better than the level of the opponent's drives. So the pusher ends up playing a half-level down and winning.
     
    #43
  44. bukaeast

    bukaeast Rookie

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    No No No, you can't keep the ball low to their forehand. That is not tennis! They can't hit with Topspin. ONLY that is real tennis/
     
    #44
  45. oldhacker

    oldhacker Semi-Pro

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    You are wrong to label someone who hits mostly slice as a pusher. One of the most aggressive players I know hits mostly slice forehands (pretty flat with an element of slice). He times it to perfection, just clearing the net and with great placement and hits more clean winners with it than most do with topspin forehands.

    Steffi Graf only hit slice backhands and won the most singles Grand Slams by some distance.

    I hit topspin from the baseline but have never been great as short ball putaways with topspin. I have developed a sliced forehand putaway instead which is very reliable. I saw Federer using exactly the same shot a few times at Wimbledon this year and he ain't no pusher !

    Also don't kid yourself by labelling players who use long rallies to tire you out as pushers. I can play various styles to suit the situation. If I am playing someone which good groundstrokes but iffy fitness compared to me my goal in the first set is to make every rally as long as I can - even if that means prolonging points I could finish. If I can wind them in the first set then the next sets are a cakewalk. Ferrer and Nadal do the pro equivalent regularly enough.
     
    #45
  46. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    Agree, somehow this got morphed into a implication of guys who use slice forehand being pushers. That is absolutely untrue. I play several older guys who also hit slice drives with the forehand -- as their primary shot.

    These guys are not pushers. They have WEAPONS.

    I think the important thing to remember is that a pusher really has no weapon. They just run for balls and float them back to in court. A pusher would not even understand how to do a slice forehand -- which requires a good amount of timing.
     
    #46
  47. tank_job

    tank_job Banned

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    I can't stand the snobbery around here when self-proclaimed 'proper tennis players' lose to those with greater consistency than themselves.

    Consistency is part of talent. This is why Rosol is less talented than, I dunno, Ferrer for example.

    You lack the talent to compete with these people you label as 'pushers', and, no the match is not even on your racket, because the 'pusher' is using your inconsistency against you. They are controlling you. Not the other way around.

    Either get more consistent and beat them, or lose to them and have respect, don't lose to them and b!tch about it like you were the more 'worthy' winner of the match.
     
    #47
  48. oldhacker

    oldhacker Semi-Pro

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    Pushers do have weapons but they are more subtle than a massive forehand or serve. Their weapons are fitness, movement, footwork, concentration and consistency. For stronger pushers I would add placement, court sense and anticipation to that list.

    In some ways good pushers are high level players minus the strokes !

     
    #48
  49. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, this begins the debate on what is a pusher. I think it really comes down to "what defines a weapon". I don't consider those characteristics you are eluding to as "weapons", per se. But I understand the debate.

    Some think pushers really can't exist beyond 4.0 (and rarely 4.5). Others think Rafael Nadal and Andy Murray are pushers.
     
    #49
  50. Venetian

    Venetian Professional

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    This is my favorite post on TTW ever. It mirrors my thoughts exactly.
     
    #50

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