Great advice i got today

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by ga tennis, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    Im a prime example of what not to do with social comparisons. I look at some of these kids my daughter losses to and ask myself WTH!!!!! A good friend of mine sent me a message this morning that i really liked. Her message said (Its not a race. Doesnt matter what happens at 11. Ingraining the right fundamentals is key. The tree with the deepest strongest roots is the one that reigns supreme in the forrest,not the one that grows the fastest.) What a GREAT way to look at it. THANKS!!!
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2013
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  2. TennisCoachIN

    TennisCoachIN Rookie

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    So very true ^^^^^

    My daugther turned 9 last month. She lost this past weekend in the finals to a girl who just slapped the ball low and skiddy at her feet. My daughter executed her shots with good form. Of course, it bugged me for a little bit, but that is the kind of tennis you will often see in 10's.

    She understands this is a long term process :)
     
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  3. TCF

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    I needed that quote BEFORE last weekend GA! It was a definite WTH weekend!
     
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  4. TCF

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    Ha!! You and I had the same weekends!! My girl who is 8 lost in the finals to a 12 year old who literally never swung at a ball! She was tall and long armed and blocked everything back. It was on clay so my girl was working her tail off but just could not break through.

    And this was the g12s so prepare for a long spell of it.
     
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  5. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    I knew you would like the quote. The person that sent me the quote has the most talented 11 year old i have seen play. TCF you would LOVE to watch this kid play. AMAZING!!!!! When she puts it all together watch out world!!!!
     
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  6. TCF

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    I would love to see her play. I left that tournament so proud. My girl gave up a foot in height, 30-50 lbs to every opponent. She played one entire set with a bloody nose, never even let me or any adult know it was bleeding as her court was in the middle of a row of courts. All I could see is she kept going to the water fountain and washing it. Never gave up, ended the match with a shirt covered in blood, got to the finals and lost to one of the tallest, long armed, pushing freaks of a girl I have ever laid eyes on!

    But she gained a ton of valuable experience.
     
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  7. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    AWESOME!!! YOU LEARN MORE FROM LOSSES THAN WINS....
     
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  8. TCF

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    Yup, one of her training partners also lost to the same girl. We have already gone to work teaching them how to deal with almost 6 foot tall blocking machines, while playing on clay where your winners are not really winners!
     
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  9. TennisCoachIN

    TennisCoachIN Rookie

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    It's going to be a long couple of years of slapping, moonballing, crazy stuff. She just loves to play, am fine with that as long as she continues to hit with good technique.

    Have a question for you TCF :) First though, My oldest daughter just turned 13. She is 5'1 and only 82 pounds. Very petite. She will be lucky to get to
    5'4, of course should gain more weight. She is a solid player, however reality sets in when we has to play up a divison when there are no 14's and she sees bigger and stronger players. My question is based on her size if the goal is to play Lower Divison I or II college, what style of play do you recommend for her? Also a good string and tension. She uses AeroPro Drive, but wants to switch to Pure Drive. Her feet are her biggest asset. Thanks in advance for your time.
     
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  10. Bash and Crash

    Bash and Crash Semi-Pro

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    You may want to pattern her game after Henin, think she was around 5'5", all around game, great for dubs, and nice topspin game to grind out when necessary. I like Henin as example because even though she was shorter she had big serve, big game, and big heart..."It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."
     
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  11. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    I believe playing while bleeding is against the rules - blood on court is considered a bio-hazard. I once stopped my daughter's match when she was seriously bleeding and took a lot of flack for it from her afterwards - they put a tight bandage on her knee and she could not move.
     
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  12. Bash and Crash

    Bash and Crash Semi-Pro

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    Good stuff, I tell parents, you want them to win now and lose later, or lose some now and win a lot later. Let their games build and build, layer upon layer, she will be so strong when she 14+. The dink and dunkers, moonballers, etc., just disappear as they get older.
     
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  13. TennisCoachIN

    TennisCoachIN Rookie

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    Thanks great advice
     
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  14. Chemist

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    Refs would usually suspend the match and allow 3 mins injury time to treat nose bleeding. My son used to have this problem when he was 10-11. I asked him to keep a few cotton balls in his tennis bag. But I am really impressed how well your 8 yr old handled this adversity! I hope the USTA PD folks would take notice - I believe she is the type of the kids that they should be nurturing and developing.:)
     
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  15. hhollines

    hhollines New User

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    Great question and this is what bugs me about many coaches and tennis programs. They fail to customize toward the individual's personality, mental make-up, size, weight, etc. Erani, for example, could not play like Serena regardless if she tried. Many tease Caroline W. but maybe she has maximized her ability and good for her (she did reach #1 in the world). My point is you start to build the game around what they can do successfully and their personality and adjust as they grow and change (physically and mentally).

    I believe you build the game around the make-up of your kid and then look to maximize whatever style that is. There are so many different styles that have been successful . . . just look at Erani to Radwanska. I love Serena but her game is built around perhaps the best serve in the history of women's tennis . . . take that serve away and her winning % would drop significantly.

    And what if your daughter develops a unique style that is unlike anyone else? (hell, if you would have sent Nadal to a traditional coach they would have ruined him; same with Bjorn Borg, etc.). There's no simple answer . . . I just make sure every tournament and trip we take serves a purpose whether it be form, technique, mental, physical, emotional, etc., and that purpose is never primarily driven by points (however, that will change in the 16s but until then, it's about everything that touches her game).
     
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  16. Chemist

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    I have also asked my son to play like Henin!:)
     
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  17. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    I can tell you how fast slightly built shorter girl can win matches against bigger and stronger opponents. Obviously power and serving will be the biggest challenges. Make tennis match a running contest instead of hitting contest. Make sure she is very good at changing direction of the ball - she needs to own both crosscourt and down the line shots from both wings. Practice two on one drills as much as possible. Make her take the ball early and move to the ball instead of waiting for the ball to come to her. Serve must have a proper form as serve is big disadvantage. Teach her slice serve to open the court promptly to put opponent on the run. She needs to be comfortable moving inside the court to finish points at first opportunity.
    There are a lot of girls 5'4" and under on strong D1 teams so do not set unnecessary limits for her.
     
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  18. TCF

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    TenniscoachIN....I think you got great advice from everyone. Looking to play like Henin, another shorter player, is a good idea. But as others said, do not totally pigeon hole her to any one type. Taylor her game towards not only her size, her strengths and weaknesses, but also the style of game which she enjoys the most. A kid playing the way they enjoy will go further in the long run.

    My kid is only 4'8" so she attacks right now. She attacks every ball she can instead of playing by the back fence or hitting balls above her shoulders like most little ones do. As she ages we can adjust to her growing size and personality.
     
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  19. TCF

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    Yeah, we discussed with her afterwards to take a timeout. Due to them playing on a middle court in a long line of courts, no adults could see what was going on. When she came over with a shirt spattered in blood I was pretty surprised.
     
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  20. BMC9670

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    Hmm...

    Opponent was older...
    Opponent was taller...
    Opponent was bigger
    Opponent had long arms...
    Opponent was a pusher...
    Opponent was a freak...
    Oh, and your player couldn't break through because of the clay and was injured...

    Careful TCF... sounds an awful lot like all of the excuses you used to get on Brad about after a loss.;-)
     
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  21. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    YES, send them to Christian school that is serious about its Christian beliefs. that will be best thing you will ever do for them
     
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  22. TCF

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    Yawn, I am trying to ignore troll posts like this that pick things out of context and try to ignite arguments that have been left behind months ago.

    I was conversing with 2 dads who are trying to teach their kids not to use excuses and keep fighting no matter what. I NEVER said she lost because she was injured, I said I was proud that she did not make a big deal out of a bloody nose.

    You ignored the post on the other thread where I said she lost BECAUSE she forgot to move in on the 2nd serve half the time, and became impatient and went for ridiculous and stupid winners that she had no business attempting. I put the BLAME for her loss squarely on me for improper preparation and her for forgetting some of what she had been taught.

    Brad's kid was always a foot taller than anyone he ever played. Not even relevant to an 8 year old playing a 12 year old built like a grown women.
     
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  23. BMC9670

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    Ha, I'm a troll after all these years?!? I'm not trying to get into anything with you, just keeping you in check on justifying losses (see bold) now that it's your kid playing.
     
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  24. Chemist

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    It doesn't bother me a bit that TCF was using the difference of the age and size as an excuse for his daughter's loss. 99.9999% of 8 yr olders would cry if their nose is bleeding. 99.999% of 8 yr olders have never picked up a tennis racket. If they have, 99.99% of these 8 yr olders would be hitting foamed balls or balls with a color dot. 99.9% of these 8 yr old tennis players have not played a real match. If they have, 99% of them would be playing Quickstart...

    We have so many parents on this board with kids having extraordinary abilities and potential to play US Open or to play college tennis. I just hope all of us provide support to each other and share our experience how to become a better tennis-parent, a better tennis coach, and a better tennis player!:)
     
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  25. BMC9670

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    I get it. I have a kid who plays up. But TCF devoted a lot of thread time to arguing against these very things as excuses. Look it up. It changes the game when it's your kid playing. Now they are not excuses.
     
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  26. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Chuckle of the day so far!

    Has anyone wondered where all the parents of older, taller, bigger, longer armed, pushing freaks who are never injured and have mastered clay go for message board information and entertainment? Not here, apparently.

    C'mon, we know you are out there. How 'bout posting up?
     
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  27. TennisCoachIN

    TennisCoachIN Rookie

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    The point of this thread I believe is that in the 10's & 12's you are going to see alot of ugly tennis and if you have younger children like myself, TCF & gatennis, you just need to stick to the game plan (long term development) and not worry about wins and loses.

    IMO, for this board to serve its purpose, who cares what someone else has said in the past, let's move forward with great advice that will give all of our children a better chance at succeeding in this game.
     
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  28. Chemist

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    Haha, sometimes we just wanted to have some fun teasing others or getting teased:)
     
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  29. Chemist

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    Agree!:)

    I wish I knew about this board 4-5 years ago. I could have learned so much more from those who have done it that would surely benefit my son's tennis development.
     
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  30. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    Focus on strokes and movement , TCF "Vaseline" inside her nose the night before matches , DB suffered nose bleeds when he was young , coat his nose night before and morning of ,

    As for the fresh road your on an the pushers you will encounter we use to run them corner to corner now were trying to drive up the middle , it's a habit you want to start early a couple recent losses were resorting back to the corners in the heat of the battle . Best of luck
     
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  31. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    TCF is gonna get the real definition of development , so I wish his daughter the best and hope her road is a lot smoother then ours , he will see times when his girl is sore,tired, blisters, ect. stuff that will cause losses to players of a lower level an only he will know but the whole tennis world will think what they will think and say , The fun has begun !

    You don't need to say much time will , be supportive if anything it one thing America needs to get back to starting here !
     
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  32. BMC9670

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    Ok, I'll stop poking. For those of you who have been around a while, TCF knows I'm not being malicious.

    I'll add a funny anecdote. As I said, my son plays up (10 playing 12) and recently played a match against another 10YO in a tourney. Now, my son is tall and after this match, which he won, several parents and the official praised his opponent, who is a friend and training partner, for having a great game for a 10 year old. As we walk off, my son says "obviously they don't know I'm a month younger than him."
     
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  33. Chemist

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    Driving up to the middle of the court? This is really interesting and I will ask my son to try it. So, we want to show a pusher that we are willing to out push him/her and force him/her to play more aggressively and reduce our errors? My son likes to use the net to beat pushers, hitting good approach shots and finish the points at the net or use a low and short ball to pull a pusher to the net and then pass or lob him.
     
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  34. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    Keep attacking the net best thing to do but I am saying don't get in a habit of running him corner to corner to beat them , they only get faster as they get older , we just lost a match to a guy down in mex , 1st set other guy 2nd we hit up the middle think 62 quick then lose 75 in 3rd running the guy , fell back into a trap I wish we had cleared up when he was 12 .
     
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  35. Chemist

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    Previously we thought that hitting hard and deep to the middle would only work well against power hitters who can hit big cross court and down the line.

    Thanks for the tip!:)
     
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  36. TCF

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    No BMC, you do not "get it" because it is obvious you totally missed the point. 2 totally different types of posts.

    Post type 1 includes a parent who constantly mentions his player being top ranked in the 12s and 14s. Constantly used excuses as to why the player lost....injuries, sickness, death in family, older kid, pusher, etc.

    Then came my posts....type # 2. A conversation with GAtennis and another dad. The conversation includes frustration about trying to develop a player in the USTAs where many kids and parents are simply trying to win now.

    3 girls at the tournament have goals of high level tennis. They were trying to play a total, mini pro style game. They tried to set up points, use strategy, set up winners. They never went soft and started bunting even when losing.

    They ran into a very tall, long armed girl whose parents sat courtside cheering her every breath. She had no intention of playing tennis, no thoughts of long term development, she was there to win each point with bunted strokes, then celebrate when she won the plastic trophy with her parents as if it was the Open.

    Like GA has been many times, I was frustrated, as were the other parents. Why? NOT CAUSE THEY LOST. We could care less about a plastic trophy. It was boring to watch and does not help anyone when one girl bunts balls back over and over. We all know that she will be long gone by the 16s.

    So we then move on to trying to get something for the money and time we spent at that tournament. I took home some positives.....she toughed it out, she never gave up, she set up some nice points, she never went passive, she was not scared to lose.

    I never once used an excuse like that other poster has. I merely stated what happened in terms of the development plan, nothing to due with wins and losses which are meaningless to GA and I right now.

    As far as reasons for the loss, I was clear. My player and I need to prepare better to counter players like that. Simple as that. I put zero importance even if she finished 1st instead of 2nd in a G12s and G14s. Totally meaningless, thus no need to make excuses.

    None were made. Simply a discussion with other dads about how frustrating it can be when trying to develop a player in the 12s when so many girls have no interest in actually developing their games and are just there to win at all costs, even if those tactics will dead end very soon.

    When we play within our group there is an honor system that the girls play for real, play games like they will when they are older. Plenty of room for drop shots, slices, a few moonballs when needed. But just bunting balls back because you are so tall...every ball, never fully swinging at even one ball? That is nothing they will see in the WTA and thus it was a waste of our time to play against. These tournaments are too expensive to waste time playing girls with no interest in tennis, who are just there for the 12s trophy for mom and dad.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
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  37. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Does this dtm method force errors from blocker pusher types?
     
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  38. BMC9670

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    Maybe you should go back and ready some of your old posts. You have a path, just like the other poster did. Great. Stick to it and talk about your player. Which you did. Good. Just leave out bashing the one who beat her: strokes will dead end, pusher, freak, parents doing the wrong thing, etc. Those are justifications and excuses, no way around it. Just leave it out. That's what you used to say when you had the point of view of not having a player on the court.
     
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  39. GRANITECHIEF

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    So close to getting that 1st point. How is the ball kid?
     
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  40. TCF

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    You are now just being silly and not admitting you are wrong. The posts you picked apart are part of a CONVERSATION with GA about trying to develop our players. Nothing to do with wins or losses.

    I mention the bloody nose in a conversation with him about toughing things out....you pull it out saying it was an excuse....when no reference was made to wins or losses.

    The conversation is about player development, and how it can be a waste to play tournaments in the 12s....which GA already warned me about. This THREAD is about just that, go read the OP again!!

    I tossed away good money and time for nothing last weekend...thats what stinks, that is what is frustrating. She loses practice matches all the time, she will lose a ton more in tournaments. Who cares? The entire conversation about playing a extreme pusher has nothing to do with wins or loses, only to do with the frustration of wasting money and not helping the player by playing G12s.

    The other poster was into wins and loses in the 12s and would tout each win and excuse each loss. If you can not see that is the opposite of GA and I, who could care less about the 12s-14s, not much I can do to help you there.
     
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  41. TCF

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    ==========================
     
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  42. BMC9670

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    Ok, TCF... stopping now. Don't think either of us is way off and I want to keep it all good with you. Good luck in the next tourney.
     
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  43. TCF

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    ==========================
     
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  44. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    I hear you. After some time in our new surroundings, we are starting to find some good partners to get together with. I have 2 of his training friends join us some weekends and run on a clinic for them. No cost to anyone and gives my son some good live ball competitive drills. All L6 tournaments here are green ball, so we do mainly the non-sanctioned events and the occasional L5/L4. Works out to 1 or 2 per month.
     
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  45. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    KEEP HER IN TOURNAMENTS T.C.F!!!! Just hold her accountable to doing it right!!!! They learn sooooo much from these tournaments.. Dont be like me and get into the social comparisons and stress about how this player can beat your girl with terrible strokes. She needs the tournaments!!!!!! I have done it both ways. I kept my baby out of tournaments for a year and she fell behind. I would put her in a tournament EVERY weekend if i was you....Now we are playing tournaments as often as i can afford and its starting to pay off. JUST DEPERSONALIZE THE PROCESS!!!!!! Just make sure she is sticking to the plan and the game you want her to play will develop.... She needs the tournaments...
     
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  46. Bash and Crash

    Bash and Crash Semi-Pro

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    Tournament every week for an 8 yr old? How about one a month and TCF hosts an in house tourney with his burgeoning group of girls. Get about 8-12 girls to battle it out on Saturdays, short pro sets, and he or parents/coaches can pop in and provide instruction throughout, help the kids with strategy, emotions, etc. Seen this work well, and it is cost effective, keeps them sharp, creates a great tournament support group.
     
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  47. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    Oh yea forgot shes 8. Every other weekend.
     
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  48. Bash and Crash

    Bash and Crash Semi-Pro

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    Granted not your typical 8 yr old tennis player...:shock:
     
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  49. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    I know a lot of coaches like the deep down the middle play. I am not a big fan. There are times you have to go deep down the middle to take away the opponent's angle on the next ball. However, making the opponent move will create more errors. And when your player creates an angle on his hit he has more court to work with and makes fewer errors. I'd be interested to hear what the experts on this Board say about the deep down the middle hit at the highest levels of juniors and Futures.
     
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  50. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    On returns good play. Im no expert.
     
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