Great Rivalries

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by CEvertFan, Apr 14, 2007.

  1. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,058
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    I'll get this thread started by naming five:

    Evert-Navratilova
    Evert-Austin
    Borg-McEnroe
    Sampras-Agassi
    Graf-Seles
     
    #1
  2. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    3,046
    I agree with Evert-Navratilova of course, the greatest of all rivalries. Evert-Austin would have been even better had Austin played the French Open in 1979 and 1980, and of course had Austin's career not fizzled out so sadly with injuries starting in 1981.

    Borg-McEnroe was also great, but like Evert-Austin did not become all it could have been due to Borg's sad and premature retirement.

    Sampras-Agassi was very good, but probably the weakest of all those 4 rivarlies. I never really felt Agassi was really at Sampras's level, Sampras had to play down to Agassi a bit. That is just my opinion though. In any case Agassi did not have a consistent enough year, with enough years of he and Sampras both at or near the very top of the game for it to be a truly great rivalry.

    Seles-Graf was also great, but too sadly never fulfilled its potential due to that awful Gunther Parche.

    Evert-Goolagong was pretty good too, not at the level of Evert-Navratilova or even Evert-Austin, but a pretty good rivalry.

    Court-King was a superb rivalry.

    Connors-Borg too was also a great rivalry.
     
    #2
  3. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,418

    Evert and Navi had 14 slam finals - the greatest rivalry (because the rest of the field in those years were clowns only).

    Evert-Austin?
    No only ONE slam final. That doesn't a rivalry make.

    Borg-McEnroe and Sampras-Agassi had 4 slam finals.

    Graf-Seles 6 slam finals, but only 15 matches (Graf won 10 of them).

    But you forgot Graf-Navratilova. 6 slams finals (Graf won 4). The two greatest female players of all time! The glorious Wimbledon 1988 final (and still the best performance by a woman tennis player ever).

    Graf-Sabatini (3 slam finals, 40 matches) and Graf-Sanchez (7 (!) slam finals, 36 matches) are honourable mentions).

    But Seles, Sabatini and Sanchez were not on the same level as Graf. So no really great rivalries, IMO.



    Condi
     
    #3
  4. Nick b

    Nick b Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    287
    Location:
    uk
    how about fedz and canas aigh any takers
     
    #4
  5. sandy mayer

    sandy mayer Rookie

    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Messages:
    260
    Connors Mac was also a great rivalry.
     
    #5
  6. chrisdaniel

    chrisdaniel Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2004
    Messages:
    425
    ....

    Agassi and Sampras were 14-20..you cant play down and loose 14 matches...
     
    #6
  7. tennus

    tennus Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2006
    Messages:
    318
    Becker vs Lendl seems quite interesting :)

    Becker, Boris 10-11 Lendl, Ivan



    22-Nov-67 7-Mar-60

    Leimen, Germany Ostrava, Czechoslovakia

    Monte Carlo, Monaco Goshen, CT

    6'3'' (190 cm) 6'2'' (187 cm)

    187 lbs (85 kg) 175 lbs (79 kg)

    Right-handed Right-handed

    1984 1978

    0/0 0/0

    0 0

    49 94

    $25,080,956 $21,262,417








    ATP, Davis Cup and Grand Slam Main Draw Results


    1993 Tokyo Indoor
    Japan Carpet Q Lendl 6-3 1-6 7-6(2)
    Stats
    1992 US Open
    NY, U.S.A. Hard R16 Lendl 6-7(4) 6-2 6-7(4) 6-3 6-4
    Stats
    1992 Long Island
    NY, U.S.A. Hard Q Lendl W/O
    1991 Australian Open
    Australia Hard F Becker 1-6 6-4 6-4 6-4
    Stats
    1990 Singles Championship
    Germany Carpet RR Becker 1-6 7-6 6-4
    1990 Tokyo Indoor
    Japan Carpet F Lendl 4-6 6-3 7-6
    1990 London / Queen's Club
    England Grass F Lendl 6-3 6-2
    1990 Stuttgart Indoor
    Germany Carpet F Becker 6-2 6-2
    1989 US Open
    NY, U.S.A. Hard F Becker 7-6 1-6 6-3 7-6
    1989 Wimbledon
    England Grass S Becker 7-5 6-7 2-6 6-4 6-3
    1988 Masters
    NY, U.S.A. Carpet F Becker 5-7 7-6 3-6 6-2 7-6
    1988 Wimbledon
    England Grass S Becker 6-4 6-3 6-7 6-4
    1987 Masters
    NY, U.S.A. Carpet RR Lendl 6-4 6-7 6-3
    1986 Masters
    NY, U.S.A. Carpet F Lendl 6-4 6-4 6-4
    1986 Sydney Indoor
    Australia Hard F Becker 3-6 7-6 6-2 6-0
    1986 Stratton Mountain
    VT, U.S.A. Hard F Lendl 6-4 7-6
    1986 Wimbledon
    England Grass F Becker 6-4 6-3 7-5
    1986 Chicago
    IL, U.S.A. Carpet F Becker 7-6 6-3
    1985 Masters
    NY, U.S.A. Carpet F Lendl 6-2 7-6 6-3
    1985 Wembley
    England Carpet F Lendl 6-7 6-3 4-6 6-4 6-4
    1985 Tokyo Indoor
    Japan Carpet S Lendl 6-3 7-6(1)
    1985 Indianapolis
    IN, U.S.A. Clay S Lendl 5-7 6-2 6-2
     
    #7
  8. tennus

    tennus Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2006
    Messages:
    318
    This one surprised me ! :eek:


    McEnroe, John 15-21 Lendl, Ivan



    16-Feb-59 7-Mar-60

    Wiesbaden, Germany Ostrava, Czechoslovakia

    New York, NY Goshen, CT

    5'11'' (180 cm) 6'2'' (187 cm)

    165 lbs (75 kg) 175 lbs (79 kg)

    Left-handed Right-handed

    1978 1978

    0/0 0/0

    0 0

    76 94

    $12,552,132 $21,262,417








    ATP, Davis Cup and Grand Slam Main Draw Results


    1992 Montreal / Toronto
    Toronto, Canada Hard Q Lendl 6-2 6-4
    Stats
    1991 Long Island
    NY, U.S.A. Hard S Lendl 6-3 7-5
    Stats
    1990 London / Queen's Club
    England Grass S Lendl 6-2 6-4
    1990 Toronto Indoor
    Canada Carpet S Lendl 6-3 6-2
    1989 Masters
    NY, U.S.A. Carpet RR Lendl 6-3 6-3
    1989 Montreal / Toronto
    Montreal, Canada Hard F Lendl 6-1 6-3
    1989 Dallas WCT
    TX, U.S.A. Carpet S McEnroe 6-7 7-6 6-2 7-5
    1989 Australian Open
    Australia Hard Q Lendl 7-6 6-2 7-6
    1988 Roland Garros
    France Clay R16 Lendl 6-7 7-6 6-4 6-4
    1987 US Open
    NY, U.S.A. Hard Q Lendl 6-3 6-3 6-4
    1987 Stratton Mountain
    VT, U.S.A. Hard F Lendl WEA
    1985 US Open
    NY, U.S.A. Hard F Lendl 7-6 6-3 6-4
    1985 Montreal / Toronto
    Montreal, Canada Hard F McEnroe 7-5 6-3
    1985 Stratton Mountain
    VT, U.S.A. Hard F McEnroe 7-6 6-2
    1985 World Team Cup
    Germany Clay F Lendl 6-7 7-6 6-3
    1985 Forest Hills
    NY, U.S.A. Clay F Lendl 6-3 6-3
    1984 Masters
    NY, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 7-5 6-0 6-4
    1984 US Open
    NY, U.S.A. Hard F McEnroe 6-3 6-4 6-1
    1984 Roland Garros
    France Clay F Lendl 3-6 2-6 6-4 7-5 7-5
    1984 World Team Cup
    Germany Clay F McEnroe 6-3 6-2
    1984 Forest Hills WCT
    NY, U.S.A. Clay F McEnroe 6-4 6-2
    1984 Brussels
    Belgium Carpet F McEnroe 6-1 6-3
    1984 Philadelphia
    PA, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 6-3 3-6 6-3 7-6
    1983 Masters
    NY, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 6-3 6-4 6-4
    1983 San Francisco
    CA, U.S.A. Carpet F Lendl 3-6 7-6 6-4
    1983 Wimbledon
    England Grass S McEnroe 7-6 6-4 6-4
    1983 Dallas WCT
    TX, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 6-2 4-6 6-3 6-7 7-6
    1983 Philadelphia
    PA, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 4-6 7-6 6-4 6-3
    1982 Masters
    NY, U.S.A. Carpet F Lendl 6-4 6-4 6-2
    1982 US Open
    NY, U.S.A. Hard S Lendl 6-4 6-4 7-6
    1982 Montreal / Toronto
    Toronto, Canada Hard S Lendl 6-4 6-4
    1982 Dallas WCT
    TX, U.S.A. Carpet F Lendl 6-2 3-6 6-3 6-3
    1981 Masters
    NY, U.S.A. Carpet S Lendl 6-4 6-2
    1981 TCH V USA QF
    U.S.A. Hard RR Lendl 6-4 14-12 7-5
    1981 Roland Garros
    France Clay Q Lendl 6-4 6-4 7-5
    1980 US Open
    NY, U.S.A. Hard Q McEnroe 4-6 6-3 6-2 7-5
    1980 Milan
    Italy Carpet S McEnroe 6-3 1-6 6-2
     
    #8
  9. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,058
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    John dominated Lendl in the early part of Lendl's career and so did Borg and Connors but then Lendl turned things around against Connors and Mac and wound up with winning records over both of them as he took over the men's game in the middle 80's.
     
    #9
  10. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,374
    Mac didn't exactly dominate Lendl in the early going. In fact, when Mac was already clear world Nr.1 in 1981, he was 0-3 down in hth with Lendl. He lost a lot of matches to Lend, before he won Philadelphia in 1983 on the advice of Don Budge, who told Mac, to go to the net on all balls, even on Lendls serves, and attack every ball. Then he won a streak of matches, before Lendl turned the tide again with his 85 Flushing win.
     
    #10
  11. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,058
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    I stand corrected. I guess when a great like Budge gives you advice you take it even if you are Johnny Mac. :lol:
     
    #11
  12. Gilgamesh

    Gilgamesh Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    423
    Everyone has the right to their opinion but WTH are you talking about? How did Sampras "play down"? Some of their matches were air tight. It was great to watch two players with so different games go at each other. Agassi wasn't on Sampras' level but he is one of the greatest ever. The guy has a career GS plus a gold medal. If it wasn't for Sampras, Agassi could have 12 GS titles and won 4 GS in a row. Sampras didn't play down for Agassi. If anything, facing Agassi elevated Sampras' game. Agassi is one of the reasons Sampras' legacy is so celebrated. I have always said take away Agassi and Sampras will be like Federer today as in everybody would be questioning his level of competition. Facing and more importantly beating Agassi sort of "legitimized" Sampras' greatness.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2007
    #12
  13. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    3,046
    Again it is just my opinion, you dont have to agree which is fine. I never felt watching Agassi play Sampras that he is in his league at all, and that Sampras had to either be a bit off, or Agassi be a bit lucky in scraping out of a series of tough situations, for it to be a great match. I personally dont think Agassi's combined physical, technical, and mental abilities are in the same league as any of Sampras, Federer, Borg, McEnroe, Connors, Lendl in fact, my personal feeling is he a great player, but a notch down from all of those guys. I believe the marketing campaigns surrounding Agassi have created some inflated perceptions of him, and I just dont get into that sort of thing or allow it to color my judgement. I would have much rather have watched Federer or McEnroe in their primes play Sampras then Agassi personally, but sadly the birthdays did not coincide for that to happen, so I guess that was the best that was left.

    I certainly dont value the Olympic Gold medal highly in my evaluations of players, most players regard the Olympics as less important then a Masters title. In fact to be honest, the only people I recall bringing up the Olympic Gold as being that meaningful an achievement, are those whose favorite player won it(somebody who supports Capriati, Agassi, or Graf, for example). Agassi does have a career grand slam, but to me that in no way makes him superior to any of Sampras, Federer, Connors, Lendl, Borg or McEnroe who dont. All of those guys have had periods of being a dominant player, Agassi never truly did since even during her period of winning 3 of 4 slams he was 2-4 vs Sampras, and 90% likely would not have won neither Wimbledon or the U.S Open had Sampras not pulled out of the U.S Open with an injury at the last minute.

    The matches between Sampras and Agassi which were truly competitive Sampras either seemed "off" to me, or Agassi was having to scrape out of countless holes and Sampras missing countless opportunities(eg-2001 U.S Open quarterfinal). I never felt you would watch matches both playing close to their best that were truly hotly contested. A match like the 1999 Wimbledon final is how they would typicaly compare both playing at or close to their best IMO, not exactly hotly contested.

    Aside from all that though Agassi was not a consistent player at all. He had too many down years and was not at or near the top enough for it to have been a truly great rivalry. Evert vs Navratilova, Borg vs McEnroe, Borg vs Connors, Graf vs Seles, never had any time, let alone over half the time where one player allowed themselves to fall out of the Worlds top 5, sometimes lower then that. That is what makes it less of a rivalry to me, Agassi's ranking was sometimes affected by a certain degree of inactivity, but based on overall results he was not a top 10 calibre player in 1993(rankings wise he ended out of the top 20), was a top 2 player in 1994 and 1995, then not a top 5 calibre player in 1996, not a top 30 calibre player in 1997(rankings wise ended out of the top 100), not a top 5 calibre player in 1998, a top 2 player in 1999, and not a top 5 calibre player in 2000. Not nearly consistently enough up there with Sampras to allow for a truly great rivalry like those others were both players were much more consistent champions who stayed at or near the top year after year.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2007
    #13
  14. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,058
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    I agree with you on some of the points you made but not all. Agassi was inconsistent for a good part of his career until late in his career and Sampras was far more consistent throughout his whole career but I think you are also underestimating Agassi's talent. With regards to their rivalry I think it was more of a case of Sampras having Agassi's number rather than Sampras being WAY better than Agassi. There is no denying that Sampras was the better player, but not to the degree you are making it out to be.
     
    #14
  15. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    3,046
    You could be right on that, tennis is not just about abilities, but also about particular matchups. As well as the matchups from a tennis perspective, there are also psychological edges developed between two people that can start with the result of just one match and grow from there.

    So it is very possible Agassi was made to look less impessive since he is just a bad matchup for Sampras, and the psychological edge went in Sampras's favor somehow as well. So yes it is possible that very situation is causing me to undervalue Agassi to an extent. After all if Federer was not the dominant player of today his rivalry with Nadal would make him look alot less great of a player then he is as well.

    However when I hear things about Agassi being the best baseliner I question that since it seems he was owned by almost every "great" baseliner he played. Owned by Lendl, even if alot of their matches were in the early 80s he was already a top 5 player and couldnt even get 1 win in many meetings. Owned by Courier in the early 90s when Courier was a top player, and when Agassi was one of the best as he reached a bunch of slam finals from 90-95(7 in fact) and won a Wimbledon, U.S Open, and Australian Open; but I think he had a 6 match win streak vs Courier anyway that spread from 1991-1995. Owned by Federer too, granted it was at the later part of his career, but exactly how far past it was he from late 2003-late 2005, considering he won 5 of his 8 slams(over half)and had his most longest consistent run of success ever in his career from spring 1999-winter 2003. He was definitely past his prime, but the greatest baseliner of the open era, or something to that effect that some call him, would not have been so completely owned as that in a period of time 1/2 year to 2 1/2 years, past the end of a 4 year stretch of winning 5 of his 8 career slams. Even Hewitt, had a winning head to head with Agassi in 2001-2002, I believe it was 3-2, Agassi had IMO the 3rd and 5th best years of his career that year(after only 95 and 99 for 2001, after 94 as well for 2002 ), Hewitt is a great player but is only a 2-time slam winner. So basically I see him generally having an extremely hard time with any fellow of the truly "great" baseliners he faces, enough to make me seriously doubt him being the best baseliner of the open era as he is called by many.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2007
    #15
  16. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    923
    In no particular order, the truly great ones:

    Court/King
    Evert/King
    Evert/Goolagong (prettiest matches for sure)
    Navratilova/Evert
    Graf/Navratilova
    Graf/Seles (smashmouth tennis, not always pretty)
    Williams sisters/Hingis

    Some of my personal favorites to watch:

    Navratilova/King - Martina never played BJK at her best, but good matches
    Evert/Austin - the first serious challenge to Chris' confidence and career
    Navratilova/Goolagong - 1978 Wimby SF was one of Center Court's best
    Austin/Navratilova - another potential great one cut short
    Mandlikova/Jaeger - could've gotten interesting in the mid 80's
    Austin/Shriver - goes all the way back to their junior days
    Mandlikova/Austin - all but one of their 9 matches went 3 sets
    Navratilova/Mandlikova - great displays of serving, returns, volleying, passing
    Graf/Sabatini - wish I had seen more of their 1986/1987 matches
    Seles/Sabatini - some good ones, some not so good ones
    Sabatini/M.J. Fernandez - vastly underated rivalry
    Sanchez Vicario/Novotna - good matches took a nasty twist later

    Some less famous ones:

    Navratilova/Zvereva
    Navratilova/Sukova
    Evert/K. Jordan
    Graf/McNeil
    Graf/de Swaart
    Garrison/McNeil
    Evert/Maleeva
    Seles/Novotna
    Sabatini/Novotna
    Novotna/MJ Fernandez




    Of the men that I've seen:

    Borg/McEnroe
    McEnroe/Connors
    McEnroe/Lendl
    Lendl/Wilander
    Becker/Lendl
    Becker/Edberg
    Sampras/Agassi


    Ones that I liked watching:

    Lendl/Leconte
    Becker/Stich
    Sampras/Courier
    Sampras/Henman
    Federer/Nadal
     
    #16
  17. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    10,536
    Interesting stuff. Great memories.
     
    #17
  18. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    ... as well as Lendl and Mc and, to a lesser degree, Lendl vs Connors and Lendl vs Wilander.Also, Becker vs Edberg,Becker vs Lendl, Nastase vs Smith....and Laver vs Rosewall...
     
    #18
  19. Chris Evert Fan

    Chris Evert Fan New User

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    32
    Yes! Finally! Another Chris Evert Fan! haha

    More seriously, I like the rivalries you selected - all were legendary. I would also add Federer-Nadal to that list. They have played mostly in semifinals and finals, and they've played in a number of Grand Slam finals (7, I believe). However, unlike the sensationalists, I would not rate it as the greatest ever rivalry. That's just silly, given that they've only played each other 23 times. I do believe that Evert and Navratilova's rivalry is the greatest there ever was in tennis. It will probably never be duplicated or exceeded, in large measure because of how the game of tennis has evolved. My favorite match in that rivalry will always be the 1985 French Open final, where Chris secured the number 1 ranking for the final time in her career. The tennis from both women was awesome.

    I also thought that Martina Hingis and Lindsay Davenport had a lively rivalry, even though they only played in 2 Grand Slam finals. And the Williams sisters clearly have a unique rivalry. They have played 23 times, with Serena winning 13 of those (and the last 4). Also, they played in 4 consecutive Grand Slam finals (2002 French Open - 2003 Australian Open).
     
    #19
  20. Chris Evert Fan

    Chris Evert Fan New User

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    32
    I also forgot to include Chris Evert and Evonne Goolagong, which another poster mentioned.
     
    #20
  21. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Goolagong and Evert was not a great rivalry. Chris was always clearly the better player.
     
    #21
  22. Chris Evert Fan

    Chris Evert Fan New User

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    32
    NadalAgassi,

    I'm not sure I would agree with you. One of the reasons I think it was a great rivalry is because they played 38 times; that's more than most players get around to facing each other. Yes, Chris was the better player; I don't debate that at all. But Goolagong won some important matches. She beat Chris in the 1974 Australian Open final and later that year in the VS Championships final. Perhaps her biggest win over Evert was the 1980 Wimbledon final. Chris had just beaten Navratilova in a semifinal that was more suited to be a final, only to lose the next day in straight sets to Goolagong. That Wimbledon crown should've belonged to Chris; but Goolagong was too good that day. Finally, their games were both beautiful to watch and made for a good match up. Overall, while I think Chris had the better chance going into any given match, it was still a handful of points here and there that decided many of their meetings.
     
    #22
  23. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Chris and Evonne were real rivals on grass. That is it. On all other surfaces it was a complete non rivalry.

    And I wouldnt say beating Chris in 74 should be viewed as huge. Evert was ranked only #3 at the end of 74 behind King and Goolagong. She began to really dominate in 75.

    Goolagong's 1980 Wimbledon final I agree was her greatest triumph since it was totally unexpected. She was way past her prime which was 1971-1976, and should have lost to both Mandlikova and Stove in earlier rounds. Fortunately for her Tracy Austin was overconfident going into their semifinal and isnt that strong on grass, and then Evert was complacent in the final and lackluster. Still a great effort to win one of the big 2 tournaments she could only manage to win 2 times in her whole career total (never winning the U.S Open of course), well past her prime.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2011
    #23
  24. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,545
    Location:
    OREGON
    Actually its the slow stuff, that offers better testimony to Evonne. Eyvonne did slightly worse than Martina. Evonne won 2 of 14, compared to Martina who won 3 of 13. Those are two of only 3 players who have more than one victory over Evert on clay ( oddly Manuala Maleeva). I think those are the only two who have bageled Evert on clay. Evonne also took her to three sets on 4 loosing occasions, Martina did so on 4 loosing occasions. both players went years without playing her too. while Evonne only played her once between '76 Open and '82 in Palm Beach. Martina did not see her across a clay court but once from the Open of 75 through to Amelia Island 1984! It is true that Martina beat her in 2 of 6 majors, Evonne never did that in her 3 meetings in a major. there are a lot more similarities than differences between the greatest of women rivals and two you submit barely were rivals.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
    #24
  25. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Chris was fortunate she didnt meet Martina often on clay during Martina's prime years of 82-87. I believe they met exactly 5 times and in 3 of them Martina absolutely destroyed Chris, while Chris pulled off hard fought 3 set wins in the others. Contrast that to Goolagong who never beat Chris again on clay after 1973 which obviously isnt the same thing at all as after Chris first became #1, and was usually destroyed. I am in no way suggesting Martina is overall near Chris's level as a clay courter btw, but Martina in her prime was so formidable that even on clay she would either destroy Chris in victory or barely lose in defeat which is light years away from Evonne vs Chris on clay, where Evonne could occasionaly push in defeat and mostly get destroyed in defeat.
     
    #25
  26. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,545
    Location:
    OREGON
    You are cherry picking your favorite years, excluding and including as it pleases, always the thing to do when the argument is weak. Evert had already beaten every human on the planet by 1973 on clay. Evonne beat her twice consecutively straight sets right before her 6 year streak. How weak do you suppose Evert was? Martina beat her AFTER Austin, Jaeger, and yes, that great clay courter Zina Garrison had already done it over the course of several years. Evert was no longer at her most dominant on clay.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
    #26
  27. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Why would I want to cherry pick facts to favor Martina. If you actually think I am a Navratilova fan then that already shows how off base with reality you are. Martina is one of my least favorite players ever, and I always rooted for Chris hard to win if they played. I am only pointing out that 2-12 vs 3-13 aside nearly everyone would agree Martina was a MUCH bigger threat to Evert on clay than Goolagong was (or any other surface) and explained exactly why. You cant even begin to compare 2 wins over a developing World #4 (yeah I know no computer ranks, but she was clearly below Court, King, and Goolagong in results, seedings, etc..at that point) Chris and then never beating her again on the surface, to destroying a still close to her prime Chris in a French Open final, another tournament final, and a French Open semifinal.

    And Chris was World #2 when Martina was beating her on clay, except for 1987 when she was World #3. As I mentioned she was only the #4 player in the World at best at the time Evonne got her only 2 wins. As for Chris having beaten everyone on clay by 1973 she was still regularly losing to Nancy Richey on clay up until that point too.
     
    #27
  28. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,545
    Location:
    OREGON

    Goolagong only lost two more matches, had as many three setters as Martina did, and played her 7 times during her 6 years dominant streak. Martina played her 5. I agree Martina's record was slightly better in long run , but not enough to declare one a great rival and the other virtually none at all becasue she only was competition on a fast. She was more competition on clay than almost any one Evert met. 8 sets is a hell of a lot vs EVert between 73-83.
     
    #28
  29. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Martina though beat, in fact crushed, Evert in a French Open final and French Open semifinal both. That is a big difference from having your only two wins in the finals of other tournaments, even if tier 1 level events. And when Martina was at her best, Chris could not beat her easily on clay even once, which obviously wasnt the case with Evonne. We could debate forever but in my opinion Goolagong was nowhere near the threat to Evert on clay that Navratilova was. You obviously disagree.

    Anyway it isnt just about clay. Lets say I concede Evert overall dominated even Navratilova on clay, despite that Navratilova has a better record vs Evert on clay than Goolagong does. Navratilova countered Everts overall dominance on clay by overall dominating Evert at both Wimbledon and the U.S Open where she is a perfect 7-0 against her in finals and 10-3 overall counting semifinals. Goolagong counters the complete dominance of Chris on clay and most other surfaces only by challenging (but certainly not dominating) her on grass, which is not nearly enough to come close to evening things out overall.

    Goolagong was no more a rival to Evert than say Sanchez was to Graf. Challenging her closely on one surface (in the case of Sanchez-Graf that being clay, just as Goolagong-Evert it is grass), and being dominated on all the others. There was never any question Evert was always #1 throughout their rivalry (despite the stunning news many years later of Goolagong reaching #1 for 2 weeks) or who was the better player at any point in time.
     
    #29
  30. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,545
    Location:
    OREGON
    You are comparing a rivalry of 28-8 with one of 26-12. Honestly Sanchez was only a rival on clay. Evonne has three or more wins each on grass, carpet, two on clay. and hard. Not that big surface differential.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
    #30
  31. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Sanchez beat Graf twice at the U.S Open on fast hard courts, both in the heart of Grafs prime, not when she was still a developing kid like Evonnes 2 wins over Chris on clay. She also has 2 other wins over Graf in hard court finals. Sanchez Vicario eclipsed Graf as the best player in the World in 1994, something Evonne never once did over Chris practically speaking. There were hardly any tournaments on grass by the time Graf played, but their 95 Wimbledon final is one of the all time classics.

    Of course Goolagong was a better player than Sanchez overall but I dont think her rivalry with Evert was any better than Sanchez Vicario's vs Graf (neither were great or true rivalries anyway IMO which was my point).
     
    #31
  32. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,545
    Location:
    OREGON
    I do not view those hard courts as 'fast' but medium speed. Carpet and grass are fast. Sanchez had no victories on a fast surface. you keep forgetting that the last two victories before her 6 yr streak were consecutive straight setters by Goolagong. This developing 'kid' began the longest streak on a single surface in tennis history as of very next match after that second victory. She did go from a 'tough little baseliner' to become the greatest clay courter as of the day after those two losses. Wow talk about Cinderella magic. I guess Asutin came at midnight.
     
    #32
  33. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Sorry but U.S Open hard courts are most definitely fast. If they arent fast then you must consider no non indoor or grass surface fast as that is the fastest outdoor hard court tournament there is. I would agree Miami and Canada where Sanchez Vicario also beat Graf were medium. So she has wins on clay, twice at the U.S Open on fast hard courts, twice in finals on medium hard courts. They only played 3 times on grass, where there are hardly any tournaments by then, and I dont know often they played on carpet but probably not that often either. BTW Monica Seles has never beaten Graf on a surface faster than rebound ace, the slowest hard court. So if we go by that logic you must think Seles was never any real rival to Graf either, and even less of one than Sanchez Vicario.

    I realize full well Chris began her 6 year unbeaten streak on clay after the 2 losses to Evonne. Which makes sense as with Chris rapidly maturing, Court retiring (although making a futile brief comeback well into her 30s), and Richey aging well out of her prime, there was nobody left to really challenge her on clay. Obviously Wade, King, 70s version Navratilova, were never going to be any threat to Chris on clay. Evonne was the only one who sometimes came close but still with no victories and only the occasional set won on clay after that day not really a true rival on the surface either. In 72 and 73 Chris lost multiple matches on clay to not only Goolagong but also Richey and an aging Court, showing again this Chris was not yet anything like the Chris that would dominate tennis at #1, and especialy on clay where she would go unbeaten for many years.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2011
    #33
  34. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Here are some of the matches Evert and Goolagong played on clay after Evonnes only 2 wins over a young Chris:

    1974 Hilton Head semis: Chris won 6-2, 6-1
    1975 Amelia Island final: Chris won 6-1, 6-1
    1975 Hilton Head final: Chris won 6-1, 6-1
    1975 U.S Open final: Chris won 5-7, 6-4, 6-2
    1976 U.S Open final: Chris won 6-3, 6-0
    1983 French Open 3rd round: Chris won 6-2, 6-2

    There are probably a few others I am missing but on the whole I dont see any real battle there at all. The very occasional close match at most (still a certain loss), and mostly brutal smackdowns.

    Now contrast that to Navratilova and Evert on clay:

    1974 Italian final: Evert won 6-3, 6-3
    1975 Amelia Island final: Evert won 7-5, 6-4
    1975 Italian final: Evert won 6-1, 6-0
    1975 French Open final: Evert won 2-6, 6-2, 6-1
    1981 Amelia Island final: Evert won 6-0, 6-0
    1984 Amelia Island final: Navratilova won 6-2, 6-0
    1984 French Open final: Navratilova won 6-3, 6-1
    1985 French Open final: Navratilova won 6-3, 6-7, 7-5
    1986 French Open final: Evert won 2-6, 6-3, 6-3
    1987 Houston final: Evert won 3-6, 6-1, 7-6
    1987 French Open semis: Navratilova won 6-2, 6-2
    1988 Houston final: Evert won 6-4, 6-0

    Again I am probably missing a couple matches but the comparision makes it extremely clear. Navratilova even while still fat as a whale and lower ranked than Goolagong, especialy on clay, was even giving Evert closer matches more often than a peak Evonne on the surface in the mid 70s. And then when Navratilova really hit her stride she began delivering some thumpings to Evert on clay, the kind of which nobody else could ever dream of delivering to a 20 something Chris other than maybe Graf or Seles in their primes, while except for their final match Evert had to struggle hard for any win she got over Martina on clay. That is so far removed from the matchup between Evert and Goolagong on the surface, regardless that the W-L ratio is close.


    Keep in mind too Evonne at her career peak as a reigning 2 time Slam Champion and the defacto previous year Player of the Year lost a French Open final to Billie Jean King of all people in easy straight sets.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2011
    #34
  35. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,545
    Location:
    OREGON
    First, of course you are missing some matches, of course you are cherry picking your time frames, spinning or dismissing results etc. The facts are exactly those I mentioned in posts 24, 26, and 28 without resorting to the above. I do not count some sets or matches and dismiss others, some results and dismiss others or spin with phrases such as 'fat as a whale'. I use the entire career. Sometimes you can tell the quality of an argument by the necessity to resort to such tactics. I am done.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
    #35
  36. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    4,547
    Lendl dominant mostly over McEnroe

    Re. Lendl/McEnroe - actually that's not right. In the early part of Lendl's career it was Lendl dominant over McEnroe not the other way around. Around the end of 1982/beginning of 1983 people were saying that Lendl dominated McEnroe. Lendl won most of their matches convincingly - at that point he won 7 matches in a row with the loss of only 1 set! The only time McEnroe really dominated Lendl was 1984
    (perhaps 1980)
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
    #36
  37. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    I have not chosen to cherry pick any of my arguments. I got the match results from a site that I am pretty sure does not include all of them, but posted everyone they had listed, that is why I know I was likely missing a few. I did not purposely leave any out (well I started after 73 for Goolagong but I explained that already). However I welcome you to add any I was missing. I am pretty sure even adding those the overall picture will not change. Navratilova destroying Evert on a few occasions on clay, and even in the mid 70s as a grossly overweight player (that is reality, even Martina herself desribes herself as such back then) was more often pushing Evert closer on clay than Goolagong, despite that Goolagong at the time was clearly a better and higher ranked player than Navratilova, especialy on clay. Post EVERY match result and score between Goolagong-Evert on clay and Navratilova-Evert on clay if you have them readily available (including 1973, etc..)and you will still see there is a huge difference between the threat Navratilova was to Evert on clay and to what Goolagong was, inspite of the fairly close W-L ratio. Continue your denial though. As I mentioned I dont even like Martina and I wish things like her 6-3, 6-1 French Open final thumping of Evert on clay, and the fact Evert could rarely beat her easily in any state even on clay were not the case, but such is not reality.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2011
    #37
  38. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,743
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    The Rocket versus Muscles

    Including all matches in all tournaments, Laver and Rosewall played over 130 matches, all of them as professionals, with some results from the barnstorming pro tours lost or badly recorded.

    According to Total Tennis, Laver won 62 of their matches while losing 49. Other counts and estimations by the tennis historian Robert Geist give possible results of 75-66 or even 100-85 in favor of Laver. In the Open Era, a match score of 23-9 in favor of Laver can be documented. The total count appears to be 79-63 in favor of Laver.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2011
    #38
  39. magnut

    magnut Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,737
    Just thinking off hand 1990 and up

    Sampras vs Rafter
    Rafter Vs Agassi
    Courier vs Edberg
    Courier vs Agassi
    Chang vs Edberg
    Edberg vs Lendl
    Lendl vs McEnroe
    Safin vs Santoro
    Agassi vs Hewitt
     
    #39
  40. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,411
    I loved some of those Rafter/Agassi matches. Even those Agassi won the majority of them, they had a number of memorable matches that I felt were higher quality than any Agassi/Sampras match. The problem with playing Sampras was his overpowering serve. When he was in trouble Pete could get aces or service winners while Rafter didn't have that weapon.
     
    #40
  41. magnut

    magnut Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,737
    Thats true as Rafter was more of a tactical server and not a bomber (Rafter could bang it as well though when he wanted to). His Serve and Volley combo was just as effective as Sampras aces though. Especially in 98.

    Another good Rafter rivalry was the Bruguera vs Rafter matches. Some real battles happened with those two before Rafter really came into his own.
     
    #41
  42. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Yeah¡ great contrast of styles, both player´s strengths were really complementary and their matches ( like at the 1994 FO or at Wimbledon ) were excellent.
     
    #42
  43. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Not Lendl-Mc Enroe.it is 1980´s.Put Becker-Sampras ( and Becker-Agassi) instead
     
    #43
  44. Joe Pike

    Joe Pike Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2005
    Messages:
    3,309
    Sanchez beat Graf twice at the USO, on a fast hard-court.
    Seles never was able to do that. Not even once.
     
    #44
  45. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Austin vs Mandlikova is the missing rivalry of the 1980´s.Graf vs Hingis or Seles vs Hingis, that of the 90´s ( the Williams are more 2000´s players than 90´s ).
     
    #45

Share This Page