Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Dan Lobb, Oct 20, 2012.
Also, Ulf Schmidt and Orlando Sirola.
Bedard's victory list includes twelve (12) international tournaments, and
wins over the following distinguished players, all of whom were in mature form:
1) Sven Davidson
2) Nicola Pietrangeli
3) Orlando Sirola
4) Ulf Schmidt
5) Dick Savitt
6) Roy Emerson
7) Bob Howe (winner over Hoad in 1956, over Laver in 1957)
eight) Alan Mills (winner over Laver at the London Hardcourt in 1961)
9) Ramanathan Krishnan (runner-up to Hoad at Nottingham in 1957, winner over Gimeno, Emerson at Wimbledon, over Laver in Davis Cup)
10) Whitney Reed
11) Eugene Scott
12) Jackie Brichant
13) Rafael Osuna
14) Kurt Nielsen
15) Torben Ulrich
16) John Bartlett
Bedard's wins over Eugene Scott occurred in the 1958 U.S. National at Forest Hills, and in a memorable final to the
1960 Eastern Claycourt Championship
final Bedard df. Eugene Scott 1-6, 14-12, 2-6, 6-4, 6-2
Great stamina for a 29 year old part-time player, against a 23 year old player.
Eugene Scott was ranked #4 in the U.S. in 1964, and reached the semifinals at Forest Hills in 1967, at age 30.
I would say Daniel Nestor for now. Yeah doubles doesn't come close to singles but he has achieved so much and the singles players so little (relatively speaking) I still give him the edge for now. If Bouchard, or even Raonic, wins a slam, I give them the edge on him immediately at that moment.
Just singles players Bouchard is already now the best and Raonic 2nd best right now. Bassett now done to third.
How many Canadian tennis players have won twelve (12) international tennis tournaments in singles play?
Back then everyone played and won many more tournaments. Navratilova, Evert, and Court all won 155+ tournaments, and you will never see that sort of thing again. I look at performance in the biggest tournaments as the best indicator.
No, Raonic and Posposil play MANY more singles tournaments today than any Canadian player did in the past.
I will admit that there are more tough players in most tournament fields today, although the list above of 16 outstanding players whom Bedard defeated would fit into any tournament today.
In all of Bedard's tournament wins, and in many of his tournament losses, he defeated a tough player or two.
Again, how many Canadian tennis players have won twelve (12) international singles titles?
Dan, John Bartlett a tough player?
Dan, Bartlett was NOT a world top ten player; rather top 72 or 86.
What do you smoke???
This a link to a piece which mentions some of Canada's top early players, from before World War I, including Robert B. Powell, who reached the semi-finals of the men's singles event at Wimbledon in 1908:
His Wikipedia page states that he was an Australian Davis Cup team member AND TOP TEN PLAYER IN THE OPEN ERA.
Also, he had wins over many top players, including Arthur Ashe.
Does that sound good?
No, Dan, it sounds stupid. Bartlett did not play in Davis Cup as far as I know. He only won in 1972 an Australian Davis Cup squad tournament.
Bartlett was of course NOT a World top ten player as you claimed! And I strongly doubt that he was at least a top ten player of Australia in any year.
Conclusio: Trust rather me than wikpedia...
As I said, Bartlett was about No.70 or 80, not a top tenner!
Hey, chill out, buddy.
I was merely quoting from Wikipedia.
Perhaps they meant top ten in Australia.
Could a nobody beat Arthur Ashe?
Think about it.
Dan, Be cautious when quoting wikipedia. On the Bartlett site there is a warning and request for improvement and verification of that absurd claim!
I went through the yearbooks: Bartlett was never a top ten player in Australia.
Your original claim was that he was a WORLD TOP TEN PLAYER. You could regret your wrong claim but as a fundamentalist...
Almost every journeyman or nobody can beat once or twice a great player. Rosewall f.i. lost to Bob Perry and to Paul Kronk.
Sure, if the Wiki is wrong, I accept that.
I have edited the claim to refer only to the Wiki page.
But it is not easy to beat Ashe.
I am not sure WHERE or WHEN he would beat Ashe.
I see that Bartlett was about 19 years old when Bedard defeated him.
Dan, Thanks. Bartlett beat Ashe in the first round of the 1973 Louisville tournament. He lost in second round to Dick Dell.
Dell was a decent player, winning at least two tournaments.
Bartlett won the Japanese Indoor in 1969, as well as beating Ashe.
Bartlett was 21 years old in 1969 when he won the Japanese Indoor, and 25 years old when he beat Ashe.
Bedard beat him at the 1967 London Hardcourt by scores of 6-4, 6-1, 9-7, not a bad outing for a 36-year-old part-time player.
An age difference of 17 years.
Dan, I must disappoint you: the Japan Indoors in 1969 was a very weak tournament. Bartlett maybe the only foreign player.
In 1967 Bartlett was very young and immature.
And Bedard was 36 years old, and a full time secondary school principal at a private collegiate.
I'm pretty sure I saw both in earlier rounds that year, but wasn't there for the final. They were both at the top of their game. Newcombe is legend, but I especially remember Okker. He was the first of the heavy top spinners.
Shortly after this tournament, Bedard extended Roger Taylor in Davis Cup play to 7-5 in the fifth set, before visibly tiring.
Here is an update on Peliwo,
Here is an update on Peliwo,
I know and seen Kronk ( he also beat Clerc at Wimbledon, a lousy player but had a very good serve), but TBH never heard of another Perry other than Fred
Who the hell is this Bob Perry? where does he come from?
These losses by Rosewall were very late in his career.
Bartlett should be respected, for how many players could beat Ashe in his prime, as Bartlett did? Not too many.
Bit of a bump for this thread.
Today I had the absolute pleasure of chatting with Lorne Main at an ITF Seniors event here in Australia. What a wonderful and humble gentleman!
And while I had heard his name before, it wasn't until afterwards when someone mentioned his multiple world championships that I realised how dominant he has been.
Definitely someone Canadians should be very proud to call their own.
Yes, he won the Monte Carlo tournament in 1954, and several world senior titles.
No. Not at all. Besides being one of the least liked players on the tour (among the pros), he was greatly disliked by Canadian tennis fans.
The guy actually played on junior teams for Canada (though like most teens went off to train outside of Canada), and gladly took support from Canadian development programs.
As soon as he was on the way up the ranks, he NEGOTIATED with Tennis Canada and the British federation - they, being desperate for a Wimbledon champ, gave him a much better deal. In the blink of an eye, he waved the union jack around, gained a faux-british accent (which even the young-punk-Agassi made fun of: funny watching Rusedski trying to speak with a British accent...), and just sincerely "felt" more British....
Prominent Canadian tennis luminaries like Grant Connell, and Pierre Lamarche spoke publicly of their distaste for Greg and his distinctly mercenary move.
He returned to the Canadian Open soon after to have his every move booed. Fans cheered on Rusedski's faults and unforced errors for American Michael Joyce.
Though time may have dampened the initial heat Rusedski had, he was never referred to commonly as Canadian again, nor was he embraced in Canada.
He made his choice - Canadians didn't want him back.
Correct. Though he proclaimed he "felt" more British (after negotiating with both federations), and claimed his British girlfriend Lucy was also a reason....
ROFL!!! Nestor fanboy alert!!! There are only 6 in the world, so this is a rare moment..... ;-)
No seriously, I think as you learn more about tennis, you'll realize that - like it or not - doubles has very little value in terms of tennis greatness when compared to singles. This is why Flemming, Flach, Seguso, Leach, Pugh, The Bryans....are NOT seen as greater than Ashe, Chang, Roddick, etc.
Well....even the general public would not have that impression, since most would never have even heard of any of the doubles players...
Wayne Gretzky! The Guy can actually play a 'mean' game of tennis! Google it~!
I would already put Bouchard ahead of those 2. Bassett was interesting and certainly had a lot of attention but in the end was just a flash in the pan.
Raonic has potential. Maybe he needs to mess up his hair a bit!
If Raonic or Bouchard, both solid top 10ers win a grand slam this year....and they are still in the hunt at the Aus open. They would have to be considered the greatest Canadians. But Danny Nestor will always have a special place for his accomplishments and longevity!
It will always be an uphill battle for Raonic because he is a choker. I've been saying that since the first time I saw him play 3 years ago. My question back then was: can he be a Lendl/Martina N type player who overcomes that to become a solid winner (though still vulnerable to nerves against worthy/better opponents), or will he keep choking. So far, it's the latter, and it looks like it will always be that way.
Unfortunate for him, but that is the truth - and it's much easier for me to write about overcoming it, than it is for him to do.
I write this because that was also a problem for Nestor - and that was no secret in top-level Canadian circle - or I imagine among well-seasoned observers. Even Canadian juniors practicing with Nestor would talk of this - of his ability to play top-level tennis in singles....in practice. Doubles turned out to be perfect for him - he needs a teammate out there. In single though, it was painful to watch him sometimes go into a shell, and play like a shadow of what he was capable of....suddenly instead of 9 aces in a set, he'd get 1, and horrific push/slice forehand returns would appear....
Like I said in my last post, it's the hair! He needs to loosen up a bit. Then he'll stop choking! :lol:
HUH??? Is he getting hairballs like my sweet cat? ;-)
Daniel Nestor is still #1.
Sure, singles is more prestigious but the man has 8 Grand Slam titles, 4 Tour Finals and a Gold Medal.
I think to beat that resume we'd need a 4-time Slam singles champion at least.
Bedard has 12 international singles titles, 3 Canadian singles titles.
How many Canadian players have won the Canadian singles championship since WWII?
Thing is, if doubles was just out and out worthless then more guys in the 10-20 range would be pairing up for the prize money. Anyone here remember when Nadal & Djokovic paired up to lose in the first round of a Slam (USO I believe)?
Your post does not make sense. If doubles were NOT worthless then indeed more top guys would play it. Especially those trying to pad a legacy and shoot for greatness. It isn't, so for them, they'd much rather put their energy and focus into trying to get results in singles.
Most of the top guys who make time for doubles do so for fun, practice(mcenroe), or for the pay, or some combination of them.
The general consensus for the last thirty years or so is that if more top guys were playing doubles, then most of the doubles specialists would be out of a job, and that's probably true. But of course, the conversation was about greatness, not comparative ability, and as I have been saying, it's an open and shut case - doubles doesn't compare. If you think Roddick or Chang are eclipsed in greatness by Ken Flach - then you are in the minority, I assure you!
Here is some rare biographical information on John Fortescue Foulkes, one of the best of the Canadian players from before World War I. (His first name is often listed as James, but that's a mistake.)
Foulkes, John Fortescue
Born 10 July 1872 in London, England
Died 22 June 1948 in Canada
English-born, but emigrated to Canada in 1891. At the time of the 1921 Census of Canada he was living in the district of Kingston in southern Ontario with his American-born wife Margaret Foulkes (née Thomas) and two children, a son called Fortescue and a daughter, Francesca.
In the same census John Foulkes gives his occupation as officer. He had served in the Canadian before and during World War I. During the war he achieved the rank of Major in the Canadian Service Corps (4th Canadian Division). He had previously often been referred to as Captain Foulkes. He was appointed a Chevalier de la Légion d'Honneur for services during World War I.
A number of John Foulkes' lawn tennis results can be found here (the entry in question needs to be updated):
I can understand the way Canadians feel about him. I always remember how startled I felt suddenly seeing this 'American' guy running around Wimbledon wearing a Union Flag bandanna on his head and wondering "Who the heck is he? Where did he spring from?" Many British players were far from amused at the time that this unknown Canadian had suddenly leapt ahead of them in the British rankings. Ironically, despite all the initial hype and excitement, Rusedski proved to be even less successful at Wimbledon than certain native-born players like Henman who at least made semi-finals there unlike Greg. On the other hand, Rusedski did make the final of a Grand Slam at the US Open in 1997, something Henman never managed to do. Interestingly, both won one Masters tournament, both in Paris (Greg in 1998, Tim in 2003), both shared the same birthday, albeit a year apart, and both married a girl called Lucy!
However 'British' Rusedski has become over the years (and he has turned into a first-class commentator for BBC, Sky, Eurosport etc.) he still looks and sounds exactly like the Canadian he will always be. You can never really escape your roots! :wink:
Rusedski never abandoned his Canadian citizenship, and would probably have played for Canada if the support had been there for him.
Great, great to see Milos Raonic beat Nadal at IW 2015
Milos has really matured; watch this very engaging presser:
He played poorly for Britain in Davis Cup, below his best.....should have stuck with the Canadian team.
Some biographical information on Robert Bedard as well as some of his singels results and a good photo of him can be found here:
Unfortunately, the 1957 Canadian championship results are not given....Bedard defeated Krishnan in a great final to win his country's title.
Separate names with a comma.