Greatest female clay courter ever

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by thalivest, Apr 25, 2009.

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Greatest female clay court player ever

  1. Chris Evert

    48.7%
  2. Steffi Graf

    27.6%
  3. Margaret Court

    1.3%
  4. Suzanne Lenglen

    1.3%
  5. Maureen Connolly

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Monica Seles

    5.3%
  7. Justine Henin

    14.5%
  8. other (god knows who though)

    1.3%
  1. thalivest

    thalivest Banned

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    This poll is based on a recent thread topic. Who do you think the greatest female clay courter of all time. The viable options I can think of are:

    -Chris Evert
    -Steffi Graf
    -Suzanne Lenglen
    -Maureen Connolly
    -Monica Seles
    -Justine Henin (I dont really think so but I thought might as well include her)
    -Margaret Court
     
    #1
  2. crabgrass

    crabgrass Rookie

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    i'd have it down to evert or graf, hard to rate lenglen but would lean towards her for 3rd.
    evert won 7 french titles to grafs 6 and had some incredible winning streaks on the dirt but at their very best i'd slightly favour steffi...either one is worthy of the clay GOAT title though.
     
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  3. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    What breaks against the Graf edge at RG, secondary better dirtballers, was not a one slam margin, but a 4 slam margin.
    Those US opens on har-tru were far more competitive the the RG fields in the 70's. Evert won those three evnts with the loss of only one set! Then add all those US clay courts, Hilton Heads, Amelia Islands, and YEARS withot a single loss. Graff was the best on Red clay. Evert was the best on clay!!
     
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  4. gj011

    gj011 Banned

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    Graf is not a viable option for this poll, since her 1993, 1995 and 1996 FO titles belong to Seles.
     
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  5. 380pistol

    380pistol Banned

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    Shut the hell up will you!!!!!!! You are the defintion of a clown. Would Seles have had chances for the French Open 1993-1996 most definitely, but handing them to her a platter, makes you an idiot.

    From 1991 til the the stabbing she played Graf twice on clay. Seles lost one in Germany and won 10-8 in the 3rd in the 1992 French Open final, but somehow in your warped mind this translates into the 1993,95 and 96 French Opens "belonging" to Seles. You are a baboon!!!!!!!!

    Back to the matter at hand, I'd give it to Evert, unless someone can show me otherwise. Steffi and Monica in the 2 and 3 spots, I don't who;s higher, as I we'll never know what Seles could have done if not for the stabbing. Justine Henin would also have a case, but her "premature" retire killed any chance of her name being included in the discussion. This just the open era.

    Overall Lenglen would be in the top 5(maybe even higher), and Connolly falls into the Seles category, definitiely near the top, but I don't know where exactly due to the horse accident.

    Hey, baboon why don't you chastise all the players who benefitted when a physical injury (not a flesh wound) ENDED Conolly's career.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2009
    #5
  6. Cloudy

    Cloudy Semi-Pro

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    Justine would have been :(
     
    #6
  7. gj011

    gj011 Banned

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    Sorry, but, no I will not shut up. Every time Graf is considered the GOAT in any category, stubbing simply has to be brought up, considered and mentioned, because that is the reason Graf was able to get that many GS and other titles.

    Seles stabbing is different than any other injury since it was designed and perpetrated on the tennis court and its sole purpose was to make Graf the GOAT. So anyone who blindly insists that Graf is the GOAT in any way, is inadvertently condoning what Parche did and helping him succeed. So they have to be reminded of stabbing and what it did to Graf's and Seles' careers.

    Also the fact that you need to resort to personal insults and false language just speaks about you and arguments you are lacking in this discussion.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2009
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  8. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    My vote went to Monica Seles. Without the stabbing she would win more French Opens than anyone else and that makes her the greatest clay courter ever IMO. I disagree with gj011 that Graf would not have won more however. I think Graf would have won atleast 2 of her 93, 95, 96, 99 titles since Monica could not win the French every year that decade and there was nobody else that decade who would have stopped her so someone else had to win a couple, and looking at the candidates it has to be Graf.
     
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  9. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

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    Evert is the best clay court player ever.
     
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  10. gj011

    gj011 Banned

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    I didn't mention 99 title. That is the only FO title Graf would probably win after 1988.
     
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  11. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    If you feed trolls, don't complain they hang around!
     
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  12. gj011

    gj011 Banned

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    Sorry but I am not a troll. I give my opinion on the subject and that is what this board is for.

    OTOH your comments here are nothing more than pure trolling.
     
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  13. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    My way of thinking is this. Monica could not have won every French Open from 1990-2001. So someone else had to win at some point. Of the people who did win the most likely by far are Graf and an on fire Pierce. So based on that I figure Graf gets a couple, and Pierce gets 1 or 2 (maybe 1994 as well if she avoids Sanchez with Seles in the draw, I think playing Sanchez took her out of her power groove she was in). That leaves Seles with 8 or 9. I look at the others who won:

    Sanchez Vicario- great player and great clay courter but horrible matchup with Monica, and mental block playing Monica as well. Plays Steffi much tougher than she does Monica.

    Hingis- best surface is hard courts by far, overrated clay courter as her failure to win a French Open in era of no dominant clay courter proves. Underperformed badly at the French during her prime too. Was crushed by Iva Majoli in 97 final in a shocking upset, was crushed by Seles in the 98 semis, blew a big lead to a past her prime Graf in the 99 final, and lost the 2000 semis to Pierce who she completely owned from 97 onwards. Majoli, a past her prime Sanchez, a past her prime Graf, and Capriati, all won French Opens under her watch which says alot.

    Majoli- LOL, do I need to say anything.

    Capriati- Seles was getting the better of her most times in the early 2000s even with the stabbing. Not to mention Capriati was never a great clay courter, in the early 90s when she and Monica were having tough 3 setters on hard courts she was losing 6-2, 6-2 to Seles on clay.
     
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  14. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    Evert is tops followed by Steffi than Monica. Everyone else is sort of a mish-mash. I guess I'd rate them:

    1. Evert
    2. Graf
    3. Seles
    4. Court
    5. Lenglen
    6. Connolly
    7. Henin

    But that is sort of arbitrary and really a toss up. numbers 4-7 are highly debateable, but Evert, Graf and Seles are the top 3 by a bit.
     
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  15. DMan

    DMan Professional

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    I respectfully disagree with you on Seles as #3 all-time on clay. She won 3 French titles. Court and Henin both had more. Sanchez-Vicario also won 3 French titles, and reached 3 more French finals.

    Seles had a great 3 year run in Paris. Other than her 1990 when she swept the Italian and German opens, what clay court events did she win?

    Contrary to popular belief, clay was not Seles' best surface.

    Henin would have beaten Seles on clay, and is a much more accomplished player on the surface. Court's 5 French titles to Seles' 3 clearly trump her. It would be generous to place Seles in the top 5 all-time on clay. Then again, a small number still like to rate players based on what they think should have happened, instead of what actually happened.
     
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  16. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    I think it's between Evert and Graf. And I lean towards Evert because there's no one opponent that she ever consistently struggled with on clay except perhaps Nancy Richey early on in her career. She lost to Jaeger twice, Maleeva twice, and Martina 3 times. Other than that, she only has an odd loss here and there.

    Steffi lost quite a few matches to both Sabatini and Sanchez. Not that those are embarrassing losses by any means. But no one rivalled Chris that consistently the way these ladies could Steffi.

    I don't think there should be much doubt though that Steffi had the most complete record regardless of the surface, as her slam record attests.
     
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  17. flying24

    flying24 Banned

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    Evert had much more trouble with prime Martina on clay than Graf did with any opponent other than prime Seles, far more than either Sanchez or Sabatini (especialy Sabatini) overall. Her only matches with Martina on clay were 1973-1975 and 1984-1988 so of course she wasnt going to lose that many matches when there was a huge 8 year hole they didnt even play, and first few years they did play was at a time Martina could never be expected to beat Chris anywhere, let alone on clay. From 1984-1988 the head to head was 4-3 Evert, but with Navratilova brutalizing Evert by embarassing scorelines in all 3 of her wins. Evert on the other hand went to 3 sets in 3 of her 4 wins, including 7-5 and 7-6 in the 3rd on 2 of them. If 1987-1988 or 1986-1988 is deemed too late in Everts career than that ironicaly only improves Martinas record vs Evert on clay in this time.

    It is interesting how you are now implying Sabatini was a tough opponent for Steffi on clay because of all her wins in tier 1 type events. I thought it was you saying earlier Sabatini wasnt that formidable on clay or opponent of Graf on clay or in general since she couldnt beat her in big events hardly ever. As you yourself pointed out Sabatini only once ever gave Graf a close match at the French Open, and never once beat her there. Sanchez atleast has done some real damage to Steffi in all clay court venues, including the French Open though.
     
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  18. flying24

    flying24 Banned

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    I voted Evert based on her incredible consistency and longevity on the surface, combined with amazing dominance for a time even vs the horrific mid-late 70s clay court field. So while I still think her competition on clay was pitiful for the most part, and her peak level wasnt neccessarily the highest ever on clay, but her overall performance on the surface over a long career gives her the nod for me.
     
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  19. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    "If 1987-1988 or 1986-1988 is deemed too late in Everts career than that ironicaly only improves Martinas record vs Evert on clay in this time."

    I don't get your theory here.
     
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  20. flying24

    flying24 Banned

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    Basically that despite Evert winning 1 more French Open from 82-86 and leading their French Open head to head 2-1 it seems in some ways that Navratilova was the more dominant vs Evert on clay from 84-85 or 84-86 the only period they played on clay when both were close to their best (like I said they didnt even play a single match on clay after 1975 until 1984). Navratilova destroyed Evert twice on clay during that span, losing only 4 games and 2 games in those 2 matches. Evert beat Navratilova in a really tough 3 setter on clay in another one, and another tough 3 setter in a 1986 match on clay. If you want to extend until 1987, Chris won a tight 3 setter in one match on clay, and Martina spanked Chris for a 3rd time in their last 6 matches on clay, this one in the French Open semis which would bring their FO head to head to 2-2 after 1975.

    That is where I took exception with an opinion that: there's no one opponent that she ever consistently struggled with on clay.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2009
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  21. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    From 1988: Vs Of Houston Clay (o) F C. Evert 6-0 6-4 (spanking)

    Truth be told from 1985 forward Navratilova won one match on clay vs Evert. To make this long story far shorter, Navratilova, while able to win sets off Evert, But was her better only in 1984 ( x2 victories) and in one other match. Of all the surfaces they played in their rivalry, clay was the most lopsided. You read into dates and sets and primes as much as you care to.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2009
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  22. flying24

    flying24 Banned

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    Good for Chris. It was about time she finally give Martina a beating after the # of times Martina had handed her one on her own surface dont you think. :twisted:
     
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  23. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    3 out of 11 is not impressive. It is lopsided. It's not even 1 meting in 3. Martina played great clay court tennis in 1984 and on that 1987 occsasion. She deserves due credit for her success. otherwise its always the same story, Evert either spanks or or wins the big points at the big times, but inevitably she wins. Martina never won a 3 setter on clay.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2009
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  24. flying24

    flying24 Banned

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    So do you consider it fair to Martina to consider their 1973-1975 meetings on clay. This is the Martina who not only won 15 of her 18 slams from 1982-1987, but didnt win her 1st slam of a legendary career until July 1978. When she first arrived on the scene she was a massive talent who weighed even more than Serena Williams at her worst did, and had all kinds of emotional turmoil with considering to defect or not, the ramications, etc...In short she was an amazingly talented mess of epic proportions who was almost half a decade from winning anything, and almost a full decade from her prime years.
     
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  25. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    If she walked on the court, it is fair to judge the result. Martina thought she was mature enough to play on the tour and in the event. She, and you are stuck with the result. When Evert walks on the court in the midst of a divorce, she is stuck with the result. one presumes both champions had growing pains and aging issues as well. No cherrypicking
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2009
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  26. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    And you already know that I'm of the opinion that a prime Martina would defeat a player like Sanchez (or Sabatini) in French Open finals with regularity. So you should know from the start that we are going to disagree on this topic. Martina's simply in another league than either of those two players, even if the gap is narrowed by the clay surface.

    I still stand by the assertion that Gaby's record was very poor in grand slam paly vs. the greats of her era. But the question is "who is the greatest female clay court players ever?"

    To me, that encompasses red clay as well as Har tru. Gaby was a fine clay court player. And I can remember rooting many times to see Steffi overcome the sometimes nastiness and disrespect that the Florida crowds showed her vs. Gaby whether on hard or clay. But there's no denying that Gaby had an impressive record on the Har tru courts of Amelia Island (4-1).

    If I were to consider only grand slam play, I would still choose Evert. 3 losses to Sanchez is more damaging than 3 losses to Martina in my book, regardless of surface. Again, knowing my stated opinion earlier, this shouldn't surprise you. I'm merely putting my thoughts and opinions out there.
     
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  27. flying24

    flying24 Banned

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    Fine, I dont have a problem with anything you just said. I was only responding to your earlier opinion of nobody really creating a consstant struggle for Evert on clay, and disagree with that in regards to a prime Martina. That was all. :)

    I guess on another note tennis is alot about matchups. Graf is a better matchup for Sanchez Vicario than possibly any other top 10 all time player in history. She just has the kind of game that drives Graf crazy. Obviously you agree, you were saying you couldnt imagine Sanchez taking a set off a prime Martina at the French Open in atleast 4 out of 5 meetings, while she did vs Graf in 5 out of 5 and beating her 2 out of 5. I doubt you would argue a prime Martina is that far superior to Graf on clay though. So Sanchez just becomes a much tougher matchup for Graf IMO than what her actual ability is. JMO though.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2009
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  28. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    You're making me want to pull out the Houston final of 1987 (definitely not 1988) and watch it again. That's probably my favorite non grand slam match in their rivalry. It was great play from both ends of the court, even if knowing that Martina would somehow disagree. But it was a lovely match to watch regardless.

    And flying, I may pull out Steffi's 1986 Hilton Head win over Chris to enjoy that monumental first win over Chris. Or perhaps even the 1987 French final that is still one of my favorite grand slam finals.
     
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  29. flying24

    flying24 Banned

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    Yes those were both great matches. To be fair so was the Hana-Graf French Open quarterfinal in 86 and the Navratilova-Graf U.S Open semifinal in 86. :) That was probably the only time all 4 of those great players were atleast 80% of their capacity at once and made for alot of great matches. I honestly wish the standard of the other players had remained what it was in 86 to give Graf more competition as she matured later in the decade and really became dominant. Of course with Evert and Martina aging out of their primes, and Hana going away virtually from spring 1987 onwards, while Steffi only got stronger the last couple years of the decade were not all that exciting to watch other than the historical ramifications.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2009
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  30. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    I have a feeling despite our disagreements, we could all easily sit down with a bowl of popcorn and pick out some awesome matches to watch. :)


    When I'm in a rotten mood and I want to see someone feel worse than I, I'll pull out 1994 US Open Steffi vs. Zina, 1995 Wimbledon Steffi vs. Mary Joe, or some match of the like. Lord knows, Steffi gave many such performances!
     
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  31. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Damn! no one has the right to watch that 87 Houston match UNTIL I GET MY HANDS ON IT. I heard every shot in the book and in the library was palyed leading to that tiebreaker. When both Evert and Navratilova were on, on either clay or grass, nothing was better for aficionados.
     
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  32. 380pistol

    380pistol Banned

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    Listen and listen clearly cuz I need insult you, cuz listening and comprehending is something you don't do to well.

    Did I or did I not say Seles would definitely have chances for every French Open 1993-96?? Yes or no. Either I did or I didn't. I said handing Graf's 1993,1995 and 1996 French titles to Seles (as you did) is absolutely asinine since during 1991-92 when Seles won 6 of 7 slams she contested went 1-1 on clay vs Graf, with her lone victory being 10-8 in the 3rd. So expain to me how this equates Seles beating Graf in Paris 3 out 4 four years.

    Now don't twist my words and say I said it couldn't happen, you said "they belong to Seles", based on what genius????

    You are using the stabbing as crutch. Did Graf pay the guy to do it??? Was she part of it??? No!!! Take Muster as someone pointed hit by a drunk driver. Not perpetuated by a fan, but it was said docotrs told him to refrain from playing on hardcourts or there could be a possibilty that he could never walk again. Seles' stab wound did no signifigant damage to and major body parts and was a flesh wound. Not making light of anything, what is more severe, the possibility of not walking again, or a flesh wound??? Be serious will you???

    You know the truth so you hang to well it was perepetuated by a Graf fan... what has that got to do with Steffi???

    Again it's not the fact that the stabbing should not be considered, cuz if you read what I said, I did say "that Seles was one of the greatest claycourters ever, but I don't know where to put her based on the stabbing". But in your mind that's me ignoring it, or not mentioning. What are you on???

    But you say "Graf's 1993,95 and 96 French titles belong to Seles". Based on what??? Her 1-1 clay record vs Steffi during a period she won 6 of 7slams. But what did I say "Monica would definitely have a chance for Frecnh Open titles 1993-96", but again in your mind that's crowning Steffi, and overlooking the stabbing. Leave Tina alone you babboon. You see why the insults come at you now.

    Unless people place the tiara firmly on Monica's head and give every slam that would have happened 4-5 since the stabbing, then we're not consideiring the incident.

    And about fresorting to flase language, how many times have I asked you about......
    -Seles' 1-3 record vs Graf in 1991-92 when she made all 7 slam finals of slams she contested winning 6
    -Seles' 1993 Aus Open victory over Graf was the first time she beat Graf outside of clay (and that was 10-8 in the 3rd) since 1990 (when Graf was in such peak orm she was losing to Garrison and Sabatini in slams)
    -Or any isse Graf had, personal problems, physical injuries (that hindered her actual playing ability), Ruebella (German measles), see a physician abot that


    ....you're right, you don't resort to "personal insults and false language", you're too good for that. You just run and duck like a snivelling coward. Oops... a personal insult again. But it does "speak about you and arguements you are lacking in this discussion".
     
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  33. gj011

    gj011 Banned

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    As I said it is interesting how tools like 380pistol always again and again pick only 91-92 when quoting Seles Graf H2H (including two wins in small insignificant tournaments) and skip to mention 1990 (when Seles made it to the top and won her first GS) and pre stabbing 1993. Seles beat Graf three times without losing once in those two periods.

    Just shows you that facts and truth do not interest them. Just false ranting about their beloved Graf.
     
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  34. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    "stubbing"?

    There's a virus on my computer. It's called the Monicaisthegoatbecauseofthestubbingandnothingyoucansaywillmakemeshutupbecausethisismyopinionandiamabsurdanddemented Virus
     
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  35. crabgrass

    crabgrass Rookie

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    yep the stubbing incident is often overlooked, in the opening game of the '92 wimbledon final seles clearly stubs her toe which renders her useless for the remainder of the match...many have speculated about grafs role in this sinister incident.
    to add insult to injury in the post match press conference steffi was quoted as saying 'i thought i had a good chance today but that monica she's a stubbin' one'.
     
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  36. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Ha ha. Brilliant.

    How could I have overlooked this extremely significant, history-of-the-game altering incident?
     
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  37. gj011

    gj011 Banned

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    Sure start with typos and spelling correction of an ESL speaker, when you have no more arguments. Typical.

    You can troll all you want, but it still does not change the fact that 1993, 1995 and 1996 FO titles really belong to Seles and that Graf would never be considerer anything GOAT if there was no stabbing. Or stubbing if you prefer.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2009
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  38. 380pistol

    380pistol Banned

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    Wrong again!!!!!!! I speak on 1991 and 1992 as the that was the height of Seles' dominance. She participated in 7 slams, making every final winning 6. In 1990 she made 1 of 4 slam finals winning that.

    I have mentioned 1990 nemerous times, hence I talk about the level of Graf's playing level illustrated by the fact she was losing to Garrison and Sabatini in slams. What year did that happen again?? OK... be quiet then.

    I've also stated when Seles beat Graf for the Australian Open (in what year was that???, it escapes), it was her first non clay victory over Steffi since what year??? But in your mind, that is ignoring 1990 and 1993. Baboonizm again!!!!

    The truth does not interest me. During Seles peak she went 1-1 vs Graf on clay, her lone victory being 10-8 in the 3rd, but translates to Seles beating Graf 3 times to take 1993,95 and 96 French Opens?? I ask "based on what?", and where was your response??? Is it written in code??? Did you send it telepathically???

    Now facts don't interest who??? Who's ranting and raving now??? Sit down baboon!!!
     
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  39. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

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    Navratilova didn't play Evert on clay for such a long period of time because she routinely avoided most of the clay court events for quite a few years. Most of their matches (if you look at the 80 matches) were on grass or indoors, which clearly favored Martina. All due credit to Evert for not avoiding Navratilova on her best surfaces like Navratilova did on Evert's best surface.
     
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  40. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    Just thought I would put out this is soley on clay courters. But your arguement stands up. Seles would have been great but to say she is GOAT when she had only won 3 French Opens..
     
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  41. crazylevity

    crazylevity Hall of Fame

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    ...............

    I'm never setting foot on any thread that mentions "Female GOAT", "Graf" or "Seles" anymore. This is ridiculous.
     
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  42. flying24

    flying24 Banned

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    Interesting perspective. I guess that is possible. She played a ton on clay in 1975 and not much after. She did play 3 tournaments on clay in 1982, and 3 in 1983 as well. I think she and Chris were in the draw together at 3 of those 6 but one or the other was upset.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2009
    #42
  43. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Why does Justine Henin have 6 votes. Henin would be spanked by Graf, Seles, Evert, Lenglen, or even Court in their primes on clay. She wasnt even that dominant vs todays weak clay court field in that she had alot of losses in smaller events on clay and alot of near losses at the French. She is probably even only slightly better than Serena at her 2002-2003 peak on clay.
     
    #43
  44. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    Evert dominated on Clay she is no 1 period. And yes Seles would have won those French Opens and Steffi knows it.
     
    #44
  45. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    With her diet, probably not.
     
    #45
  46. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    Don't think it would have mattered to be honest. Seles was the best player in the world other than grass. Having someone trying to kill you on the court may affect your eating habits too to say nothing of her damaged psyche. Before Steffi's "fan" got her she was the strongest person mentally on the woman's tour. Plus she grew about 3 inches during the period of time which she did not play at all so she had no natural way to adjust to the angles and movement aspects when she did come back. Had she been playing her growth spurt would have been transparent to her like it is anyone else who keeps playing all the time. Steffi was a great player who's GS totals are inflated by the fact that the one player who had her figured out and could not be intimidated by her wasn't there. In my opinion that deranged fan hurt her legacy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2009
    #46
  47. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    You make no sense really. If Seles was really going to win Graf's French Opens than she is the undisputed GOAT on clay anyway. It is stupid to think she was going to be able to win all Graf's French Opens, yet not also win Sanchez's when Sanchez was 5x easier an opponent for her than Graf, as well as Majoli's.
     
    #47
  48. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    You can't win 'em all. And even if she did win all those French open's Evert is still better on clay. Look it up. (you'll have to dig deep and do more than just slam count here sorry)
     
    #48
  49. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Then that means Graf was still going to win some more. Any French Opens Seles didnt win for the rest of that decade were going to be Graf's before anyone else. Who was more likely to beat Seles at the French- Steffi Graf, or Sanchez Vicario and Majoli. Dont be stupid.
     
    #49
  50. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    Not nice to call names. Graf's record is inflated because Seles was not there. Hans Gunther failed as real fans know who won 3-4 last GS encounters. Seles was firmly the world number 1 and getting better. You want to have Steffi worship go ahead, I like her too but she isn't as good as her record indicates.
     
    #50

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