Greatest Grass Court Player of All Time.

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Talker, Nov 24, 2012.

  1. Talker

    Talker Hall of Fame

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    There's been Federer and Sampras talked about lately, largely ignoring the earlier ERA's before Borg.

    In those earlier ERA's grass was more prevelant so there may be other players who have some solid claims.

    It isn't just looking at titles, grass used to come in variations that could change the court conditions quite a bit.

    Here's some stats that I hope are accurate and give some idea what Sampras and Federer are up against.


    Bill Tilden: 10 Grass Court Titles, Including 10 Majors on Grass

    Roy Emerson: 10 Grass Court Titles, Including 10 Majors on Grass

    Rod Laver: 39 Grass Court Titles, Including 9 Majors on Grass

    Roger Federer: 12 Grass Court Titles, Including 7 Majors on Grass

    Pete Sampras: 10 Grass Court Titles, Including 7 Majors on Grass

    John Newcombe: 10 Grass Court Titles, Including 7 Majors on Grass

    Fred Perry: 7 Grass Court Titles, Including 7 Majors on Grass

    Ken Rosewall: 6 Grass Court Titles, Including 6 Majors on Grass

    Bjorn Borg: 6 Grass Court Titles, Including 5 Majors on Grass

    Don Budge: 5 Grass Court Titles, Including 5 Majors on Grass

    Frank Sedgman: 5 Grass Court Titles, Including 5 Majors on Grass

    Jack Crawford: 5 Grass Court Titles, Including 5 Majors on Grass
     
  2. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    Sampras.. hands down.. Followed by Laver and Fed

    I still have yet to see anyone as good Pete was on the lawns on the big stage.
     
  3. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Talker, You omit the pro majors. Also most of your players have won many more grass court titles than you list up: For instance Rosewall has won dozens of grasscourt tournaments.
     
  4. Talker

    Talker Hall of Fame

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    What about the earlier ERA's?
    They had much more practice on the grass, no doubt that would have improved their game.

    I can't take anything away from Pete though.
     
  5. Talker

    Talker Hall of Fame

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    Those numbers looked small I thought with all the grass in the earlier ERA's.
     
  6. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    The earlier guys got to play more on grass for sure. Pete would have won an ungodly amount of slams if the calendar year was comprised of 3 slams on grass

    Fed would as well. But these guys didn't have the benefit of that
     
  7. Talker

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    Who's your choice or top five?
     
  8. Talker

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    You're probably right but as many have told fans of players in the 60's, only the records count.

    Still, most have Sampras and Fed at the top.

    If Laver is a GOAT candidate he must be at the top of some surface or nearly so.
     
  9. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    I would say Laver but in those days players played much, much more on grass than now, so of course they had a lot of expertise.
     
  10. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Toss up between Gonzales, Tilden, Laver, and Sampras. If I had to pick a top 5 it would probably be:

    1. Gonzales
    2. Sampras
    3. Tilden
    4. Laver
    5. Federer
     
  11. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    So, Federer is just a filling?

    You, ridiculous, you.
     
  12. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Like other poster have mentioned, there are far more grass events during Rosewall's day. And not all grass tournament are created equal. Wimbledon is worth 20 small events. Unless you want to tell us event like Bristol is = Wimbledon.:)
     
  13. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    today's slow grass or yesterday's fast grass?

    on today's grass, the top players of the past would rush to the net only to get passed by today's top players

    and on yesterday's grass, the top players of the today would stay at the baseline and see the top players from the past knock off one volley after another :)
     
  14. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Obviously Fed is obvious.
     
  15. Huanita99

    Huanita99 Rookie

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    no, he is so NOT, obviously.
     
  16. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    My top five: Laver, Sampras, Federer, Gonzalez and Rosewall with Laver a sure first.

    Rosewall won eight grass court majors and many other grass tournaments.
     
  17. dimeaxe

    dimeaxe Semi-Pro

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    Roger Sampras :cool:
     
  18. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    How dare you impugn Federer by asking such a question!

    BLASPHEMY.
     
  19. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Federer is underrated on the former pro player talk forum AND on this general player forum.

    Laver maybe underrated on this forum, but on the former player pro talk forum, he's the best thing since sliced bread.
     
  20. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    This is rich beyond words. It is one thing to say Federer is underrated on the Former Pro Section, which while I totally disagree, I can atleast believe one having that opinion. However underrated on the General Player Forum where everyday there are 20 threads entitled "Federer is GOAT" "Why Federer is GOAT" "Federer is the bestest and greatest grass, hard, clay, and nails player ever", and where Federer wins every single poll that there ever is. Hahahahahahahahahahahahah funniest statement ever.
     
  21. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    But each time you visit this board, you can't avoid all the Nadal/Sampras supporters and the anti-fed fans posts, there's too many negativity/denigration toward Federer. Even to criticize his h2h(which serve no purpose to any discussion) against Nadal comes up everyday, every night.
     
  22. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    There is much more dismissiveness and negavity towards Sampras and Nadal then there is ever will be towards Federer and you know that full well, whether you will admit it or not. Any of the negavity you refer to is a rebuttal opposing that if anything.
     
  23. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    Negativity and Denigration from Fed on this board? ROFLMAO. Stop please.

    Sampras still with 9 or 10 votes on the USO thread (despite the same number of titles as Fed and MORE slam finals appearances). No one is more denigrated then Sampras is around here. ****s on here treat Sampras like he was a 2 time slam winner and ran the ferris wheel at the country fair

    Its a Federer lovefest around here and has been for years.

    Heck, if I didn't know anything about tennis or federer and happened to stumble across this message board I would have thought he cured Cancer or Polio
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
  24. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Exactly. The only player as hated as Sampras on this board at times are Nadal and Serena.

    BTW I notice you have a Bruguera avatar. Are you a fan of his. I was when he played. I think he was a bit of an underachiever too. He could have been a better player off of clay had he had a better attitude towards it, and he could have won even more than 2 French Opens without his injury problems after 94.
     
  25. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    I agree. Yea love me some Bruguera.( Another guy of course who Fed would "destroy" on clay):) I always felt Sergi should have managed another 2 French titles anyways. The amount of RPM's he could generate on the ball considering the racket technology at the time was pretty ridiculous

    I try to go back on youtube once a month and catch Bruguera in '93 at the french. He was awesome that year. Took out Pete, Medvedev and Courier
     
  26. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    90s Clay
    helloword
    6-1, 6-3, 6-0
    NSK
    RAFA2005
    The Dark Knight
    TheNatural
    Cesc

    These are very anti-fed and that's just off the top of my head.



    Federer fans like tennis_pro, zagor, Towser, Sentinel are very fair posters.
     
  27. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Roger Federer is the greatest grass court player of all time, great winning % on the surface too
     
  28. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    What you're saying is having less number of votes automatically means denigration.:confused: That's just speculating.

    Jerry Rice had overwhelmingly first place vote on all time greatest receiver. Anyone who follow NFL will know it's not about denigration towards other players, but simply believe he's the best.
     
  29. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    Rice has greater dibs at being the GOAT receiver as Fed does being the "GOAT" tennis player.

    Federer is far from some "hands down GOAT" to ever step on a tennis court. There in lies the problem. Hes spoke of as the greatest thing to ever step on a court despite a few flaws

    1. There are some guys with some arguable better resumes then Fed (Pancho, Laver, Rosewall to name a few who weren't systematically destroyed by another guy as much as Fed was by his main rival Nadal)

    2. Issues with Nadal exploiting Fed since the beginning of his career which has been a huge knock on Fed's career


    Fed is one of the all time greats.. But to cast him as the hands down greatest ever is another story. Laver had more longevity and greater success then Roger (despite not having as many cracks at the slams then Roger. Pancho (Same story). Rosewall if you factor in the pro slams he has a 22-23 slam count
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
  30. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Federer has beaten Nadal 10 times and leads the head to head on everything but Nadal's best and Federer's worst surface clay. Issue's with a single player aren't the nail in the coffin you Fedhaters make it out to be. Besides that in 2 of the last 3 matches with Nadal Federer has beaten him pretty badly.
     
  31. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    LOL you were only able to name 4 relatively fair Federer fans. What a surprise. What about Federer fans (aka ****s) such as abmk, Prisoner of Birth, Bobby Jr, McEnroeisanartist, Smasher08, aphex, FakeDjokovicFanWin, DropShotArtist, Tennis_Hands, Biscuitmcgriddleson, MTF07, krosero, Cup8489, monfed, cc0509, mandy01, tenniselbow01, just for starters.

    Your anti Fed list isnt very long either.
     
  32. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Federer is arguably the GOAT. I have no problem with someone saying that are saying that in their opinion he is the GOAT. However as you said he is definitely not the undisputed GOAT. An undisputed GOAT of a sport is someone like Michael Phelps whose career, stats, and dominance trump all others from every possible measuring point, which is in no way true of Federer. ****s seems to have deluded themselves that he is the Michael Phelps of tennis which clearly he is not.
     
  33. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Nobody expected him to win either of the French Opens he won. In 1993 Courier was the heavy favorite all along, and just before the final. In 1994 he had a dissapointing clay season heading into Roland Garros, and Bruguera was the new big thing on clay. He played incredible tennis both years to win.

    He played really well in 1997 too, too bad he got nervous for the final, but he was playing another clay great to be Kuerten who played incredible that day also. I remember being excited in 1997 when he beat Sampras at Miami (on hard courts) and made the final, and then made that French Open final run, it seemed like he was really on his way back, but that would be his last hurrah of sorts.

    Injuries definitely wrecked his career from 96 onwards especialy.
     
  34. Talker

    Talker Hall of Fame

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    Fed has the H2H lead on grass against everyone.

    I'll try to find Fed's winning percentages on grass so we can compare with candidates from other ERA's.

    That should be a huge indicator.

    Edit:
    Found this site with winning percentages however it doesn't include older records which are needed.
    I also haven't checked the sites accuracy.

    http://www.tennis28.com/slams/winpct_onesurface.html
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
  35. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    Federer has more grass titles than Sampras despite having the same number of tournys. Advantage Fed.
     
  36. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    You forgot to add NadalAgassi and Mustard.

    :)
     
  37. President

    President Legend

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    You would think someone like you, a fan of 90's attacking tennis who laments the homogenized defensive conditions of today, would be a fan of Federer since he's basically the only top attacking player left. Instead you denigrate him at every opportunity. You'll see that when Federer retires, tennis will be much worse off.
     
  38. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    A few names was off the top of my head. Just scrolling through list of members from a few threads:

    90s Clay
    helloword
    6-1, 6-3, 6-0
    NSK
    RAFA2005
    The Dark Knight
    TheNatural
    Cesc
    veroniquem
    DRII
    Cassius Clay
    kiki
    Limpinhitter
    YouCantBeSerious
    LOLville
    Bud
    tlm
    lendlMac
    sureshs
    beHappy
    thundervolley
    blocker
    BrooklynNY
    Tammo

    The members are from Sampras/Nadal/Laver/Nole fans. I'm sure the list of names is very long if we put in more effort.
     
  39. MTF07

    MTF07 Semi-Pro

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    Federer's career stats dominate the tennis record books.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Roger_Federer

    To act like Federer doesn't dominate the tennis record books is laughable. What major record doesn't he currently hold?
     
  40. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    No Calendar slams.. Laver with 2

    Not even close to Laver's 200 tournament wins. Not even half way there.
     
  41. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    most Australian Opens
    most U.S Opens
    most French Opens (not even top 20 in that probably as probably atleast that many have more than 1 French Open)
    most years as the #1 player (people say Sampras has the most, but in reality the most would be Gonzales or Laver, there was just no computer rankings then, either way it isnt Federer)
    best year W-L record
    longest winning streak
    A single Calendar or Non Calendar Grand Slam
    most tournament wins
    most tournament wins in a year
    No Davis Cup title

    Quite a large number actually. Then even ones he holds he often shares (eg- most Wimbledons, most Masters), and others he basically only holds due to the format of the game as we know it only starting up 40 years ago (eg- most slams, Gonzales and Rosewall would both have many more had it been Open tennis then like today). As I said he is far from the Michael Phelps of tennis. Now if it were Phelps you were talking about you probably couldnt think of a single one.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2012
  42. MTF07

    MTF07 Semi-Pro

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    LOL @ NO DAVIS CUP TITLES.

    I thought you were being serious.
     
  43. MTF07

    MTF07 Semi-Pro

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    200 tournament wins? Really? That's about as valid as Connors 109 or whatever the number was. There aren't anywhere near as many tournaments today for any player to get close to that number. Never mind the fact that most of those tournaments were probably easier to win than the "easiest" tournaments today.
     
  44. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    He does have the longest winning streak on grass and hard court. DC is a team sport. And few items from your lists are decades ago, which you have claimed those numbers isn't comparable to today's standard(i.e. Laver's 200 titles).

    Anyway, you're asking Federer to be perfect, which no goat in any sport are perfect themselves. Jerry Rice, Michael Jordan has a long list of records/streaks like Federer, and I'm sure if you dig in you can find other records/streaks that they don't hold. Yet, the consensus they are the greatest to their respective sport.
     
  45. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    I'll go with no GOAT of grass, but greatest grass courts players of their eras. Federer, Sampras, Borg, Laver would certainly be in that list.

    I just don't like GOAT claims, and being a Federer fan it would be easy for me to say that Fed is GOAT, with so many numbers to his name. I just don't like comparing eras, things are always changing. I am content with players being the greatest of THEIR time.
     
  46. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Really

    This thread is about Grass ability. Given that Nadal has only beaten Federer once on grass by the narrowest of margins then well, I disagree with your point 1 above.
     
  47. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    He also came close to beating Fed in 2007 as well while being injured.. Nadal could very well be 2-1 vs. Fed on grass right now (Probably even better then that if Fed had to deal with Nadal in 2009 and 2010 as well)
     
  48. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    LOL worthy self PWNGe actually.

    Considering the fact that the same is valid for the generation before the Open era. And we know from experience, what you think about the records from back then, don't we?

    At least you said it, and it can be used in an argument with you.
     
  49. PseudoFed

    PseudoFed Banned

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    My friend Rafa cried when he lost in Wimbledon 2007. Being the humble and benevolent GOAT that I am, I chose to give him the 2008 Wimbledon as a token of friendship. You're welcome, Rafa.
     
  50. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    It's a toss up between Sampras and Federer.
     

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