greatest stroke in womens tennis history?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by dominikk1985, Dec 14, 2013.

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  1. Graf FH

    48 vote(s)
    50.5%
  2. Serena serve

    22 vote(s)
    23.2%
  3. henin BH

    18 vote(s)
    18.9%
  4. martina volleys

    3 vote(s)
    3.2%
  5. other

    4 vote(s)
    4.2%
  1. rockandroll

    rockandroll Banned

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    Yes, and since we all know Seles was on her way to atleast 70 slams by now, Serena would still be slamless without the Seles stabbing. Serena in greatness is on par with Pam Shriver, a doubles specialists who hung around near the top but won no real slams in singles (not tainted by the stabbing of was destined 100 slam winner Seles). :lol:

    We should also investigate Court's 24 slams and Wills Moody's 19 since queen Seles was not born yet. This makes them essentialy meaningless. Especialy knowing what a grass demon prime Seles was:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMy4T8tydQI

    she would have especialy taken away all of Court's 19 grass slams, and all of Wills Moody's 15 grass slams.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
    #51
  2. Chico

    Chico Banned

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    We have never got to see prime Seles thanks to Gunther Parche.
    17-19 year old Seles was dominating the tour, winning last 7 of 9 slams (7 of last 8 she played) prior to stabbing.

    No stabbing: Seles 18 slams, Graf 16 slams (Martinez, Vicario, ... would have less slams also)
    Women from other eras would not be affected.

    Childish ranting and nonsense could not change that.

    I find it distasteful and rude to make fun of, ridicule and try to minimize such despicable act of violence, only to increase Graf's claim to fame.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
    #52
  3. Willi62

    Willi62 Banned

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    No blackmailing, no stabbing: Graf 28 slams, Seles 7 slams (Navratilova, Sabatini … would have less slams also).

    To say otherwise is making fun of criminal acts like blackmail and stabbings.
     
    #53
  4. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    Serena's serve is awesome. But you only have to face it for half the match. Steffi's forehand was in play every single point. You could try to avoid it, but because of her footspeed you can't escape for long. It's the single most intimidating shot I've ever seen.
     
    #54
  5. Chico

    Chico Banned

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    Not sure why do I answer to this trolling, but I will try to explain couple of things to you using facts and reason.

    You compare apples and oranges. Supposed blackmailing (really doubt the truthfulness and relevancy of this, just another nonsense Graf's fans would pull to try to erase what their fellow Parche did), did not happen on the tennis court and was not done by Seles' or any other tennis player fan.

    That is why the stabbing has to always be considered when someone tries to evaluate Seles' and Graf's careers and their place in history. It simply can't be overlooked. Or Parche will get his wish fulfilled, which is simply unacceptable.
     
    #55
  6. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Frenchie Durr´s forehand
     
    #56
  7. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    The Tennis world does not change its behavior to either accommodate or hamper Parche's wishes. It takes take zero notice that such wishes existed. Tennis does exactly the same thing it did when any other number 1 did not show up for an event or for a period of time for any reason. It restructures the seedings of events and re-calibrates the rankings, and moves forward. The sport is not to be held hostage by Seles, Parche or Graf. Graf played by the rules, won the necessary matches and deserves the victory. It is unfortunate that Seles could not participate, but that happens in sports, just as it does in life. I don't care if Connolly fell from a horse or fell down running for a tennis ball in practice, or suffered a panic attack on the plane to England. She did not play Wimbledon and others did in her absence.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
    #57
  8. Willi62

    Willi62 Banned

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    So if Seles had been stabbed on the street by a mugger it would have been different?:shock:
     
    #58
  9. robow7

    robow7 Professional

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    You are incorrect sir, it was that back hand that was so "amazing" WTF ?????

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    #59
  10. BTURNER

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    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
    #60
  11. robow7

    robow7 Professional

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    The first time I saw her hit that backhand, I nearly fell out of my chair. I mean I saw that same swatting motion from the hackers down at the public courts and here this woman was a professional. But after I watched her for a while I realized that even though that stroke was so God awful ugly, I had to admit it was effective against other women.

    Check out this thing of beauty about 50 seconds into this clip where she's battling Evert at Wimbly in 71.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E1UmY-MJV4
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
    #61
  12. Chico

    Chico Banned

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    Yes of course, since she would not have nightmares every time she stepped on the court and it would not take 2 1/2 years to come back since she needed to overcome psychological trauma and get enough courage to dare to step on the court again, if she was stabbed on the street instead on the court.
    Every time she played a match after the stabbing she was looking over her shoulder waiting for an attack. That is why she was never the same. Ask anyone who knows something about human psychology and post traumatic stress disorders.

    Do you people know anything at all or just come to here to flame?
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2013
    #62
  13. Chico

    Chico Banned

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    Reported. No time to waste on this nonsense.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2013
    #63
  14. Willi62

    Willi62 Banned

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    But Graf was not allowed to slump after her family scandals?
    Not even a little bit (enough to lose many matches to top players and to allow the #2 player to take over)?
    :shock::shock::shock:
     
    #64
  15. Willi62

    Willi62 Banned

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    There was an ongoing discussion about Steffi's forehand and Serena's serve. No Seles was in play.
    YOU started to provoke people who voted for Steffi. Duly reported ...
     
    #65
  16. Chico

    Chico Banned

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    Sorry, but this is not true at all. Please go back and read the posts.
     
    #66
  17. Willi62

    Willi62 Banned

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    Have a look at your posts #29 and #34.
    Yeah, "Graf overrated" and then this pathetic Selesian whining again.
    In a thread which was about Steffi's forehand and Serena's serve.
     
    #67
  18. PDJ

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    The perpetual Seles/Graf arguments cheapen any thread it rears it's boring head, and subsequently cheapens the argument for either players merits. So so dull. And predictable .....
     
    #68
  19. Willi62

    Willi62 Banned

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    It is ALWAYS the anti-Graf camp who start those arguments.
     
    #69
  20. The Sandbagger

    The Sandbagger New User

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    Seles backhand.
     
    #70
  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Fraulein FH
    best fh ever men included
     
    #71
  22. Con_T

    Con_T New User

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    Well said.


    As a weapon, I think Graf's forehand is still the gold standard.

    As an influence, I think Evert's introduction of the double-handed backhand changed the way the women's game is played.
     
    #72
  23. Brian11785

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    Gotta be Graf's forehand or Serena's serve. I chose the forehand only because it is a shot she is able to kill you with on virtually every point.

    (And, for the record, Seles is my second favorite player of all-time. :))
     
    #73
  24. ravelok

    ravelok Banned

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    Serena's serve. Graf's forehand is great but overrated. Seles at her peak had a better forehand, and Serena was overpowering Graf off the forehand side the times they met.
     
    #74
  25. Con_T

    Con_T New User

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    I think that's the first time I've read a comment like that, ever. There are a lot of words that can be used to describe Graf's FH, but "overrated" would be last on the list, IMO.
     
    #75
  26. PDJ

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    Not a huge fan of Graf but I couldn't agree with you more. But why let logic get in the way - you'll find out very quickly that the Graf loonies v the seles loonies are so rabid that they will write anything offensive/ridiculous to further their favoured players cause. It's the same with the Serena v Sharapova barkers......... it just becomes white noise. I imagine them in a darkened room sticking pins in effergies of the player they detest with all their being, praying at the shrine of their chosen icon, whilst their mother gently rocks in a chair....with no head. Trust me, it helps.......:)
     
    #76
  27. ravelok

    ravelok Banned

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    Graf has an amazing forehand. I dont dispute that. However prime Seles had a better forehand, so based on that already how could it be the best ever. Pierce at the 94 French ripped apart Graf's forehand with her own. Serena was overpowering Graf off the forehand side when they played in 99 and neither was in her prime.

    So it is questionable it is even the best forehand ever, let alone the best single shot.
     
    #77
  28. ravelok

    ravelok Banned

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    BTW I am not even a Seles fan let alone a "Seles loonie".
     
    #78
  29. PDJ

    PDJ Hall of Fame

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    Nor am I saying you are. However, you only have to look at some of the comments on this thread to get an idea of how practically most topics get highjacked by the opposing warring factions. It's particularly irksome when the initial post is not even about them- granted they both warrant sensible rational reasoned thoughts on this thread.
     
    #79
  30. ravelok

    ravelok Banned

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    Well the horrific stabbing probably ensured high tensions between the two fan bases forever. Which I imagine even before then weren't exactly chummy to begin with, as Graf and Seles themselves weren't. There is a high level of ignorance from both sides in the debates I have seen. Seles fans are delusional enough to believe Graf of 91-92 was playing her all time best tennis, that she only lost the 92 Wimbledon final since she didn't grunt and would have won otherwise, that prime Seles was even a better mover than Graf, etc....Graf fans on their side are delusional enough to believe Graf would have returned to easy dominance even without the Seles stabbing, that Seles's rise was only due to a massive slump by Graf, that even prime Seles never had a hope vs Graf on any faster court even though she won 5 straight of the WTA Championships/U.S Opens. Both fan bases are laughable in general, and thankfully I am a fan of neither player.
     
    #80
  31. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Only Nadal and Federer fan base is worse in their quarrels
     
    #81
  32. ravelok

    ravelok Banned

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    Naw Graf and Seles fans are even worse than Federer and Nadal. Federer fans atleast concede Federer >>>>> Nadal on clay, and Nadal fans concede that overall Federer is above Nadal on all but clay. Evnn if they argue his clay supremacy, achievements on all surfaces, and total dominance of Federer might make him the better player prematurely.

    There are Seles fans who actually believe pre stabbing Seles was the best player on all surfaces, even grass, and didn't win all the Wimbledons just due to her WD in 91, the gruntgate in 92, running into on fire Zina in 90, and that she was on her ways to years of total dominance and possibly eclipsing Navratilova's 9 Wimbledons without the stabbing. They also believe she would still have been dominating many years later when the Williams who were awful opponents for even a top form Seles were on top. They insist things like she dominated 4 years (90-93) when in reality it was at most 2.25 years. They insist she was the real #1 of 1991 even with much weaker slam results, fewer tournament wins, and fewer wins and more losses for the year than Graf; and even though her WTA points were about 4 thousand points (the value of 2 slam titles) behind at years end, and she didn't take #2 until the last week of the season. They also argue pre stabbing Seles was just as great an athlete and mover, or better, than Graf ever was. They also insist the Graf of 91-92 was the best Graf ever, better than 87-89, better than 95-96, even though the stats indicate she would have her poorest results ever by far of her prime years even without Seles. Lastly they believe 90-93 is the toughest womens field in history, while all other years of the Graf era are magically the worst in history. That there was somehow such a magical boost from 89 to 90 to go from worst competition ever to toughest ever (unless you convince Selestials that Monica wasn't really the best in 1990, then this will be moved magically from 90 to 91), and again back to the other extreme somewhere in mid 93 coincidentally at the same time Seles was stabbed, just as equally delusional Graf fans believe her return to total dominance and regaining of top form magically happened in mid 93 around when Seles was stabbed. Of course they believe Graf would have never won another Australian, French, or U.S Open again after the Seles stabbing, even if this would require the oh so realistic sceneario of Seles winning 7 straight French Opens and 6 straight U.S Opens.

    Graf fans are so delusional they don't even concede Seles was by far the best the 2 or 2.5 years before the stabbing. They believe Graf would have won every U.S Open or WTA Championships had she played Seles, despite that in all 5 Graf lost before the final and Seles won the title. They believe Seles could have and never would have beaten Graf on anything but clay or rebound ace, despite that 250 pound Seles with tendonitis in her knee was 1 point from beating Graf in one of her best years ever 7-6, 6-0 in the U.S Open final. They believe Seles's success pre stabbing had nothing to do with her, and was all Graf's slump, and otherwise Seles is just Sabatini. They believe her real toughest opponent was Sabatini who is 1-11 vs Graf in slams as opposed to Seles or Sanchez who both beat her 4 times in them. They believe Graf would have returned to easy dominance without the stabbing, and some even argue the stabbing demoralized or bored or some weird combination of things to Graf and cost her additional slams. Their delusions extend well beyond Seles too. They believe Graf would have dominated a prime Navratilova head to head, despite going 1-4 vs Navratilova at the U.S Open (should be 5-0 as Martina choked a huge lead in 89) and Navratilova was 29 or older in 4 of those 5 meetings. They believe Graf had the toughest competition ever with Sanchez and Sabatini her biggest career rivals.

    So no Federer and Nadal fanboys, as bad as they are, don't even approach the Graf and Seles fanboys and their wars of delusion, fantasy, and epic ignorance and tardism of the worst kind on both sides.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2014
    #82
  33. PDJ

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    Wow! Brilliant post...... But to be on the safe side, double-lock the doors and check all the windows :)
     
    #83
  34. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    I think that just about says it all!
     
    #84
  35. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I like to consider Martina Hingis PLOT play as one stroke made of 4-5.genious court knowledge.and at such tender age...
     
    #85
  36. LDVTennis

    LDVTennis Professional

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    Yeah, it says he was "banned." :p
     
    #86
  37. PDJ

    PDJ Hall of Fame

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    Well he/she can't possibly have been banned for comments on this thread as that would be ludicrous. It must have been postings elsewhere - as he/she is a new user I will give the benefit of doubt and assume he/she was baited in to making a rash comment by someone who orchestrated it. I've seen it happen too many times.
     
    #87
  38. Brian11785

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    Maybe he exceeded the board limits for number of strawmen in a single post. His characterization of Seles/Graf fans might have some truth, but the Internet is not real life.....and people are generally pretty reasonable. Seles is one of my all-time favorites. Along with Hingis and Radwanska, the only WTA players whose match outcomes gave/give me high blood pressure. I almost exclusively rooted against Graf, but it had more to do with her dominance than her rivalry with Monica. Particularly viewed in comparison to the homogenized games on today's tour, I find the oddness of Graf's game delightful.
     
    #88
  39. PDJ

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    Sorry, probably being incredibly dim, but what do you mean by "strawmen"?
     
    #89
  40. PDJ

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    Ps- I liked Hingis, but I've given up on Radwanska. I've liked her tennis for quite a while, but it's too exasperating not to see her exploit her chances when the likes of SW, MS, VA are knocked out of slams and she doesn't seize the day. Sorry
     
    #90
  41. monfed

    monfed Banned

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    How about Brenda Schulz Mccarthy's serve? Anyone remember her?
     
    #91
  42. Brian11785

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    Exaggerating/mischaracterizing the argument of another person in order to set it up to be easily dismissed.

    As far as Radwanska goes, I don't disagree. I think she has done well to keep her ranking as long as she has. With a new crop of players coming in, along with the wear-and-tear on your body that her type of game takes.....I wouldn't be shocked if she is out of the Top 10 in 2 years. That is part of why watching her is so stressful.....even against inferior players, she is susceptible to be hit off the court on a given day.
     
    #92
  43. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    The best shot since 1980 must have come out off Hana hat during one of those unreal one woman shows storms
     
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