Greatest Strokes of All Time - new book

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Moose Malloy, Jun 29, 2012.

  1. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,541
    Location:
    Sweden
    Drak, how would your list of the top 5 greatest fhs of all time look like?
     
  2. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,466
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida
    In no particular order:

    Federer, Agassi, Laver, Lendl, Nadal
     
  3. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,541
    Location:
    Sweden
    Thanks.

    That is a great list. What about your top 5 bhs of all time?
     
  4. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,472
    Five great forehands worthy of any great forehand list. I debated if I should put Laver on my list since it was such a super dangerous shot.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2012
  5. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2010
    Messages:
    9,277
    Laver's forehand was brutal, but, as I explained above, he did shank the ball from time to time due to the combination of his big wrist snap, heavy topspin and Conti grip. BTW, like Rosewall, Emerson, Ashe, his backhand was greater than his forehand.
     
  6. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,472
    I think so although both sides were excellent. Krosero has charted some matches I believe in which his backhand hit more winners than his forehand. I think because of his great wrist strength that in some ways Laver almost had two forehands. I don't know if there was any loss of power if he hit out on his backhand.

    I suppose in this way it's very similar to the players today with the two hands on the backhand and the power forehands except Laver had great variety on his backhand.

    Laver probably would hit with a different grip today (he said he probably would himself) and I would think his forehand would be devastating.
     
  7. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2010
    Messages:
    9,277
    Like I said to Drak, Laver's forehand was very similar to Federer's forehand, straight arm, huge wrist snap. The main difference was the Conti grip which worked for Laver because of the faster, lower bouncing courts and that he was one of the few hitting heavy topspin on both sides. Federer also has a longer unit turn and a longer follow through mainly because of his consistent open stance. If Laver was playing today, I think his FH would be damn close to Fed's and Nadal's. But, in his prime, I still think his BH was his stronger side.
     
  8. Remioli

    Remioli New User

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    15
    Safin makes zero appearances. List is clearly flawed. Any argument is invalid.
     
  9. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,770
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    It does not compute.
     
  10. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    1,954
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale, FL
  11. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Ashe´s groundies seem very underrated to me.He was so fluid and talented, a perfect mixture of timing, grace and power, his Bh was one of the best flat shots to be seen and , when tunned on, he could hit an explosive flat or slight top spin forehand.In the 1972 WCT winter circuit finals (Rome), he destroyed both Lutz and Okker from the backcourt.It is still a mistery to me he wouldn´t back up more often on his groundies.
     
  12. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,770
    Location:
    Bierlandt
  13. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,472
    You're right. Ashe had it all as far as groundies were concerned. His backhand and forehand were explosive weapons and yet he could be very consistent with it if he wanted to be. I once saw him totally outrally Guillermo Vilas indoors from the baseline in beating Vilas 6-0. Ashe had touch if he wanted to use it as proven by his victory over Connors at Wimbledon in 1975.

    Ashe's big problem was that he played too low percentage a style because he could just pull the trigger and the ball would fly off his racquet like lightning. He went for winners too often and didn't play the percentages like Laver learned how to.

    It's funny but I've seen posters on the forums talk about Ashe being a touch player and he could be but nothing could be further from the truth. Ashe was power. At his best his serve was fantastic, with great power and his slice serve complimented his great flat serve. His slice serve on the deuce court could be hit sharper than any pro I've ever seen.

    Much has been made of his weakness on the forehand volley but it really wasn't that bad a shot and it would be considered a great shot today. His backhand volley was up there with any backhand volley I've seen.

    Ashe's backhand was actually every bit as good as Edberg's but believe it or not, more powerful and more versatile. But like I wrote earlier, Ashe played for too much winners on the line and too often he would miss.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43csIDKmkMk
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2012
  14. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,608
    Location:
    OREGON
    When will someone with this book post the women either here or on another thread. I don't think Moose is interested.
     
  15. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2010
    Messages:
    9,277
    Ashe learned to play a dink/lob game in his later years. IMO, he probably learned it from Newcombe after seeing Newk's combination of power and touch, using all 4 corners of the court, to beat Connors at the AO. Previously, he lived by the sword and died by the sword, so to speak. He had every shot in the game, including an excellent forehand volley, and one of the best 1hb's of all time. The same criticism of Ashe's forehand volley was also applied to Laver in his younger years - they hit it to hard and too flat. But, both learned to temporize their power as they matured.
     
  16. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,472
    Newcombe was a better player than Ashe overall but I always thought in pure talent that Ashe left Newcombe in the dust and I greatly respect John Newcombe. For pure talent there are very few that I have seen that are superior to Arthur Ashe. For example how many players can be said to have incredible power off the serve, volley, backhand, forehand.
     
  17. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2010
    Messages:
    9,277
    I don't think Newcombe was better than Ashe at his best. But, Newcombe was a more consistent player and performer who brought his best more often than Ashe did.
     
  18. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,472
    I agree but I meant for career that Newcombe was better.

    When Ashe was on his game Newcombe couldn't touch him.

    Here's a video of a fantastic match between Laver and Ashe I believe in the 1969 Wimbledon semi. People speak about the first set Ashe played against Laver with awe. Jack Kramer wrote that in both the first and second set both men could have defeated any player that ever lived. I'm not sure if that was true but it was amazing.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43csIDKmkMk

    It shows how Ashe (and Laver) had power everywhere.

    Now compare it to the control that Ashe displayed against Connors here. Notice how wicked Ashe's slice serve was.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcLBve-fZhE

    Newcombe was a more consistent player over his career than Ashe was in my opinion. He played the percentages better, had a more solid overall volley and had a better forehand. Ashe was great but his play could go up and down.

    Here's the head to head between the two.
    1968 Wimbledon GBR Grass 16 ASHE 4-6 4-6 6-4 6-1 3-6
    1969 Monte Carlo MON Clay QF NEWCOMBE 8-6 6-3
    1970 U.S. Open USA Grass QF NEWCOMBE 6-1 7-6 5-7 7-6
    1971 WCT Dallas USA FR NEWCOMBE 7-6 6-4
    1971 WCT Chicago USA FR NEWCOMBE 4-6 7-6 6-2 6-3
    1974 U.S. Open USA Grass QF NEWCOMBE 4-6 6-3 3-6 7-6 6-4
    1974 Tucson USA FR NEWCOMBE 6-3 7-6
    1976 Palm Springs USA Hard QF ASHE 6-7 6-4 4-6
    1976 WCT Challenge Cup USA ASHE 6-3 2-6 3-6 5-7
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  19. BeGreat

    BeGreat Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2011
    Messages:
    322
    People HAVE TO stop comparing Tilden and kramer and oldies to Sampras and Federer or Nadal. Seriously. It's like comparing birds to dinosaurs. Yes, there are links, but the comparisons are empty.
     
  20. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,472
    So by that logic we shouldn't talk about the past at all. Come on now, the comparisons of past and present are a fun part of discussion in sports.

    By the same logic George Foreman who fought in the 1960's wouldn't do well today in boxing because he's a dinosaur.

    It's all about the discussion the history of tennis compared to today's tennis. Nothing wrong with that at all.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  21. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2010
    Messages:
    9,277
    So, in your mind Tilden and Kramer were contemporaries and correctly relegated to the "oldies" bin, where every player who was in his prime before you were born belongs? You have no idea how off the mark you are.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  22. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,770
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    Ashe's racquet, the Head Competition, was part of that. It was very, very stiff. (I had one in the late 70s. I bet it would rate in the upper 70s on the present stiffness measurement.)
     
  23. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2010
    Messages:
    9,277
    Actually, Ashe's fiberglass Head racquet was a little bit stiffer than the wood racquets of the day, but, not as stiff as current carbon fiber racquets.
     
  24. Wilander Fan

    Wilander Fan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,559
    Wilander's 2hb had the style of a 1hb but the strength of a 2hb. It was a brick wall and laser like control. I think he was similar to Federer in that the gracefulness of his groundies were largely the result of great footwork. In fact no other player reminds me so much of Federer as much as Wilander because of the footwork.
     
  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    I agree.The basis of Ashe´s game was his natural athletic and pure talent which spells for fluidity.He was fluid as water and effortless even if he hit fast taken shots.poor % tennis, though.
     
  26. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    I agree.Ashe was a bit more explosive than Newcombe, both having very strong shots (Ashe, the BH, Newk the FH) although Ashe´s Fh was superior, IMO, than Newcombe´s BH.

    Ashe was a very explosive server, Newcombe had power but controlled it to be a far more consistent first and specially, second server.Newcombe had a slighty better net game, although Ashe´s BH volley was phenomenal.The difference was Newcombe´s BH volley was better than Ashés FH.Similarly, but opposite to their FH vs BH comparison.

    Both were very good tacticians and had a great chip and lob game, at the end, Newcombe was tougher menthally and that brought him a bunch more of majors than Ashe achieved.Those 2 plus Roche and, later, Nastase renewed interest for tennis, after Laver´s and ( partially) Rosewall´s decline, and before the emergence of the big baseline game of Borg,Connors and, later on, Vilas.

    We had to wait till JMac showed up to retake the great S&V days of the 60´s and early 70´s.
     
  27. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Maybe, the reasons for Ashe´s slumps were:

    1/He had other priorities in life ( he should have been a kind of preObama black politichal leader, as I see it)

    2/he depended too much on raw talent.
     
  28. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,472
    Good possibilities. Ashe had so many responsibilities. But I believe he wrote that if he only concentrated on tennis he wouldn't be able to handle it.

    Still you wonder what would have happened if he just concentrated on tennis.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2012
  29. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,472
    Top Female strokes in Flink's book

    Your wish is my command.

    First Serve
    1. Serena Williams
    2. Venus Williams
    3. Alice Marble
    4. Martina Navratilova
    5. Althea Gibson

    Second Serve
    1. Samantha Stosur
    2. Serena Williams
    3. Martina Navratilova
    4. Billie Jean King
    5. Margaret Court

    Return of Serve
    1. Monica Seles
    2. Steffi Graf
    3. Chris Evert
    4. Victoria Azarenka
    5. Maria Sharapova

    Forehand
    1. Steffi Graf
    2. Maureen Connolly
    3. Helen Wills Moody
    4. Monica Seles
    5. Serena Williams

    Backhand
    1. Chris Evert
    2. Monica Seles
    3. Justine Henin
    4. Lindsay Davenport
    5. Evonne Googlagong

    Forehand Volley
    1. Jana Novotna
    2. Louise Brough
    3. Martina Navratilova
    4. Margaret Court
    5. Billie Jean King

    Backhand Volley
    1. Martina Navratilova
    2. Billie Jean King
    3. Evonne Goolagong
    4. Maria Bueno
    5. Virginia Wade

    Overhead
    1. Martina Navratilova
    2. Margaret Court
    3. Margaret Osborne Dupont
    4. Maria Bueno
    5. Pam Shriver

    Lob
    1. Chris Evert
    2. Martina Hingis
    3. Steffi Graf
    4. Nancy Richey
    5. Arantxa Sanchez Vicario

    Passing Shot
    1. Chris Evert
    2. Tracy Austin
    3. Monica Seles
    4. Lesley Turner Bowery
    5. Nancy Richey

    Mental Toughness
    1. Chris Evert
    2. Helen Wills Moody
    3. Serena Williams
    4. Monica Seles
    5. Steffi Graf and Billie Jean King

    Any comments?
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2012
  30. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,770
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    Did Ashe play with the Head AA Comp II?

    In 1978-79 I had the Comp II Boron, which gave me TE. I switched back to a Wilson JK Pro Staff woody, and it went away almost instantly.
     
  31. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,472
    I tried a racquet Ashe endorsed c 1980 and it was extremely powerful. I would suppose it was the racquet you mentioned. The racquets of those days weren't 1% as good as the racquets and strings of today. A bit of an exaggeration but only by a little.

    Hoodjem,

    What do you think of Flink's list of the best women's tennis strokes? One I really applaud him on the selection of Alice Marble in the greatest serve list. I'm read stories of how she had such an incredible arm she could throw further than some major league ballplayers.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2012
  32. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,770
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    I have heard of Alice Marble and seen only a few old videos, but know little about her game.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2012
  33. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,472
    I was tempted the other day to see if I could get a DVD of Pat and Mike, an old Spencer Tracy-Katherine Hepburn movie that Alice Marble was also in. Don Budge and Gussie Moran were in the movie also. Not a big fan of Tracy and Hepburn but was curious from the tennis point of view. I doubt if they would show any decent tennis in the movie.

    I believe Marble was undefeated in two years, perhaps two consecutive years. Perhaps the first female serve and volleyer. I believe she was one of the teachers of Billie Jean King.
     
  34. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,541
    Location:
    Sweden
    I can't believe Sharapova and Azarenka are there but not Serena. Knowing how both of them cannot touch Serena's serve in almost all the matches they've played. Serena's return of serve is probably her second biggest strength after her serve. I'd put her slightly above or at least on par with Monica. Monica was brutal as well on her return.


    Highlights of Serena vs Sharapova's latest match

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybW8hr4xR60


    serena vs azarenka, latest match

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE5n0v5kx8k&feature=related
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2012
  35. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,608
    Location:
    OREGON
    Included in the categories provided. by and large, a good opening for discussion by Flink
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2012
  36. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,608
    Location:
    OREGON
    Thhe returns were great. When did they turn Madrid's clay blue and why must the ladies make that much noise.
     
  37. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,472
    I agree with you that Billie Jean King could just lose her concentration at times. Evert never seemed too. It's ironic that Wills and Evert are one/two in the mental toughness area because they have been compared to each other.

    Hingis versus Davenport is tough but I agree with you and put her on the list. I guess I love the look of Evonne's backhand too much to take her off. It's one of the most fluid shots I've ever seen.:)

    Court's first serve has been called the best in Women's Tennis or at least one of the best ever so I am surprised but considering who Flink picked I can understand. Virginia Wade was also a possibility to be put on that list.
     
  38. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,770
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    Does "killer instinct" count as mental toughness?

    If so, I am surprised to not see Mo Connolly.
     
  39. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,608
    Location:
    OREGON

    Absolutely, Hood.

    pc1, I have heard it implied before that Flink did not consistently give Court her due before. There may be a blind spot there he included her on second, forehand volley and overhead so he did not slight her. I think Court is at least as reputable a name for first serve as any he included. And Maybe Wade as well.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2012
  40. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,472
    I know that Court and Wade were considered to have the two best serves in Women's tennis in those days. I think you have a very good point.
     
  41. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,060
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    First Serve
    1. Serena Williams
    2. Venus Williams
    3. Alice Marble
    4. Martina Navratilova
    5. Althea Gibson

    Just because Venus was one of the first women capable of hitting a 125+ MPH serve doesn't make it a great shot - poor placement and her serve mechanics made her serve unreliable at best - it's one of the reasons her career hasn't been as good as her sister's.

    Second Serve
    1. Samantha Stosur
    2. Serena Williams
    3. Martina Navratilova
    4. Billie Jean King
    5. Margaret Court

    Return of Serve
    1. Monica Seles
    2. Steffi Graf
    3. Chris Evert
    4. Victoria Azarenka
    5. Maria Sharapova

    The top 3 are good but Azaranka and Sharapova? Not so much...

    Forehand
    1. Steffi Graf
    2. Maureen Connolly
    3. Helen Wills Moody
    4. Monica Seles
    5. Serena Williams

    Serena Williams has a great forehand, when it's on, but she makes far too many UEs off that side for it to be included here.

    Backhand
    1. Chris Evert
    2. Monica Seles
    3. Justine Henin
    4. Lindsay Davenport
    5. Evonne Googlagong

    Davenport had an awesome backhand - should be higher.

    Forehand Volley
    1. Jana Novotna
    2. Louise Brough
    3. Martina Navratilova
    4. Margaret Court
    5. Billie Jean King

    Backhand Volley
    1. Martina Navratilova
    2. Billie Jean King
    3. Evonne Goolagong
    4. Maria Bueno
    5. Virginia Wade

    Good choices.

    Overhead
    1. Martina Navratilova
    2. Margaret Court
    3. Margaret Osborne Dupont
    4. Maria Bueno
    5. Pam Shriver

    No problems here.

    Lob
    1. Chris Evert
    2. Martina Hingis
    3. Steffi Graf
    4. Nancy Richey
    5. Arantxa Sanchez Vicario

    Graf at #3 for lobs is a laugh out loud moment - I watched her entire career and she so rarely lobbed that it's silly for her to be included in this category.

    Passing Shot
    1. Chris Evert
    2. Tracy Austin
    3. Monica Seles
    4. Lesley Turner Bowery
    5. Nancy Richey

    Evert had the best passing shots of any woman I've ever seen, so no surprise there.

    Mental Toughness
    1. Chris Evert
    2. Helen Wills Moody
    3. Serena Williams
    4. Monica Seles
    5. Steffi Graf and Billie Jean King

    No surprise with Evert as #1 in this category although I'd not have put Serena at 3 - I'd have put Monica at 3 or even 2 (she was almost as ruthless, in her prime, as Evert was) and I'd have moved Graf up too. No denying that Serena is mentally tough but not to the degree that she should be included in the top 5 of all time - I'd put Connolly in her place. Also mention should be included for Austin as it was one of her greatest strengths.
     
  42. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    20,043
    Location:
    Relax folks, ...
    I'm not sure how Nole even begins to sniff a place in the Passing Shot category, his passing shots are not at an elite level and even if they might be now, his skills in this department haven't been proven for long enough. Also, I wonder why Lendl wasn't selected for that category. Roger's first serve is excellent, but top 5? Hmm... struggling to see that, myself. Murray as a top 5 returner *ever* is a bit suspect. Also, I wonder if Nadal should have been included for the Overhead list, as I've barely ever seen him miss one - I guess the rationale is; he doesn't come in enough so it isn't tested enough. The rest is probably fine.
     
  43. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,608
    Location:
    OREGON
    chrisevertfan: "Graf at #3 for lobs is a laugh out loud moment - I watched her entire career and she so rarely lobbed that it's silly for her to be included in this category."

    That was largely my impression. She hardly ever had to lob much. She did like to draw Gabby in with her backhand dropper and follow it with some great touch on the backhand slice lob, and used it vs Martina/ Novatna some. But there are so many others I'd name first.

    I agree with your inclusion of Austin in mentally tough as well as Henin, who does not get much affection in these lists.
     
  44. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2010
    Messages:
    4,875
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Glaring oddities in that list:

    Backhand
    Agassi and/or Safin should be in this list. Definitely not Djokovic.

    Serve
    Federer/Isner should be Federer/Roddick

    Return Of Serve
    Murray should be replaced with Federer

    Lob
    Take anybody off the list and put Fabrice Santoro at #1

    Passing Shot
    Djokovic should be removed. Sampras should be placed there somewhere.
     
  45. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    795

    Vilas should be in the list (backhand + passing).
     
  46. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,472
    Vilas did have a great backhand. Who would you eliminate from Flink's list on the backhand?
     
  47. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    Moose Malloy,

    Thanks for giving Flink's lists.

    I disagree with Flink at several points but mostly regarding the return list. Including L.Hewitt and not Rosewall is very strange to say the least.
     
  48. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Ashe could concentrate just on tennis for a fortnight, with a big goal behind like winning Wimbledon or the Open.But I doubt he could play the same level during a whole season.He was pretty streaky, and you don´t see a year with many major wins in his career, although 75 comes close (WCT and Wimbly)
     
  49. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    No Bjorn Borg in the top 5 at menthal tougness...the list is a joke, then.
     
  50. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    kiki,

    agreed that Borg deserves a place in the top five regarding mental toughness.
     

Share This Page