GS boycott coming this year?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by nikdom, Jan 11, 2013.

  1. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    Christopher Clarey has this nice piece on Roger chasing records, but he mentions the brewing trouble in the ATP and here are Roger's thoughts on the discussions -

    Complete article
     
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  2. IdrinkYourMilkshake

    IdrinkYourMilkshake Rookie

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    Can somebody tell a noob like me what percentage of money goes to the players and goes to the organizers? How big is the pot of money that a grandslam generates?
     
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  3. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    The players make about 12% of the revenue. The ATP and organizers make around 88% of the revenue. So basically they don't give a damn about the players. The Slams generate tens of millions of dollars.
     
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  4. JMR

    JMR Semi-Pro

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    "Prize money at the grand slams varies between 11 and 16 percent."
    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-08-29/news/sns-rt-tennis-openboycott-pixl4e8jt7zo-20120829_1_atp-players-australian-open-grand-slam-events

    Contrast that with, for example, the new NHL (National Hockey League) collective bargaining agreement in which the players reluctantly accepted a reduction of their cut of the sport's revenue from 57% to 50%. You can see why tennis players feel shortchanged.
     
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  5. augustobt

    augustobt Hall of Fame

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    That percentage is ridiculous! Never knew about that. 12% is pathetic.
     
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  6. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    I suspect this is because of how the slams perceive their importance to the business of tennis. Their position would likely be that players come and go but audiences know and go by the popularity of the majors themselves (Wimbledon or the French Open)

    I don't follow Golf too seriously but it seems it's not that way in Golf. The popularity of the sport seems to be centered more around the players than the courses themselves. Yes, there are world famous courses like Pebble Beach or Augusta but TV audiences are more enamored with players like Tiger or Michelson etc than the courses themselves.

    This is perhaps why the 100th ranked golf player makes many times over what the 100th ranked tennis player does.
     
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  7. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    Golf is a bigger sport than tennis. That much is true. The thing about tennis is that there are a lot of tournaments for the players to play in and make money from. It's just that you have to be a pretty good player to make a living. The sport won't take care of you. You gotta fight for your meals. Best thing to do I guess is find a real job outside of tennis if you can't compete in the sport. What else is there?
     
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  8. IdrinkYourMilkshake

    IdrinkYourMilkshake Rookie

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    Wow, thanks. Where exactly is the 88% going then? Is there a CEO making millions off each tournament? Or upper management? I would think there would be a well known villain in this mystery if this is the case, yet I don't hear specific names like Gary Betteman is for the NHL...
     
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  9. edmondsm

    edmondsm Legend

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    Exactly. Just for perspective. The NHL just finished negotiations where the players agreed to getting 50% of league revenue.....and they weren't even very happy about that outcome. Tennis players are getting screwed.
     
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  10. wy2sl0

    wy2sl0 Hall of Fame

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    I had no idea it was that bad. To play devils advocate however, here is the best option;

    1) We do not need to be like other leagues. I am an NHL fan and live in Ottawa where the Senators play. To get decent seats to a Sens game when they play a team that matters I have to pay around $100-150. That is fairly high. We also play half the season at home, half on the road. What I am saying is, if 50% of revenue sharing is seeing the players in hockey getting 2-5 million on average a year, then we shouldn't be paying high ticket prices. I try to go to Montreal every second year they are here and I have to pay like $200 a ticket for 3 hours of tennis!! That is ridiculous (I think I go on Quarter final day). This isn't a slam it is a masters event. Ticket prices should reflect that, they are too high.

    2) If we keep ticket prices high, obviously there needs to be a trickle down effect. Anyone in the main draw with ONE WIN should have enough money ON AVERAGE over an entire season to make a decent living after expenses , I.E a Top 50 player should be making over $100-200,000 a year after expenses - not breaking even almost as some players have said. I am not for huge salaries but we have to remember a tennis career usually isn't long and they potentially have to manage their money very efficiently to live on it for a long time.

    3) The good news right now about players not making a lot of money outside of the Top 10, is that it motivates them. How many leagues do we all watch where the players take their salaries and play at 50% and coast? I know the NHL is full of these fools. NFL is not as bad since you can just drop a player, but the MLB and NBA have this issue also to a certain extent. This is what I love about tennis!!! You don't win, you don't get paid - Golf is the same, and I admire that. However I still would prefer to adhere to point 2 mentioned above.
     
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  11. Monsieur_DeLarge

    Monsieur_DeLarge Semi-Pro

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    Money from Wimbledon? The rest goes on player development, hence why Brits dominate the top 100, and have done since... errr... sorry, what?
    LTA chief Roger Draper under fire over £640,000 pay after UK Sport put £10m funding on hold

    Money from the US Open? The USTA seems to pay pretty well too; their chief executive made more in 2008 than Andy Roddick, Andre Agassi, or Pete Sampras ever earned in a year's prize money. Of course, as with the LTA you have to give them credit for their recent success in player development...
    The USTA Pays A LOT!

    Be interesting to see the figures from Australia and France...


    Regards,
    MDL
     
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  12. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    It comes down to whether the top guys are willing to forego slams (loss of money, loss of titles in view of history) to bargain for the good of all. I don't think that will happen in this era where everyone is reminded of records and the top guys have to make the most of their limited time at the peak.
     
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  13. IdrinkYourMilkshake

    IdrinkYourMilkshake Rookie

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    Thanks, I guess that is what Federer is referring to in the article when he says somebody is greedy and nobody wants to say it.
     
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  14. Hodgey20

    Hodgey20 Rookie

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    Damn 12% and the prize money for us open mens singles last year was nearly 10 mil. thats alot of money getting thrown around!
     
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  15. Wilander Fan

    Wilander Fan Hall of Fame

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    Ive read that a player needs to get to at least the second round just to break even at a GS. This means most players end up losing money. As much as I am a fan of the sport, this is stupid. Obviously this would hold true for any event they need to travel to. Any player who can make it into the main draw of a 250, 500, 1000 or a GS should be able to walk away ahead. This is why there are no juniors and 30+ year old players are still all over the top 10. No talented kid in his right mind would pick tennis as a career.
     
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  16. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    You're right. The money and the effort needed to even compete at that level is not commensurate. It takes many years of investment (time, effort, money) even before being anywhere close to get into a slam draw, let alone win 2 rounds.
     
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  17. vernonbc

    vernonbc Hall of Fame

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    To be fair, a lot of the money that the tennis organizations get is going to investments in their young players. For example, Filip Peliwo has all his coaching and travel expenses paid by Tennis Canada and they get their money from the Rogers Cup. I believe the USTA pays for all the coaches for American players - there was a hullabaloo not too long ago about what it was costing the USTA for Mardy Fish's coach and why was the USTA paying him when Mardy was making a million or two per year. I imagine this situation is applicable for all the top ranked American players.

    That said, it is atrocious how little money the players are getting, and it's all terribly unfair. So is the fact that the slam countries - England, U.S., France, and Australia - have so much money to throw at their players while guys (and girls) from other countries without tournaments are at a huge disadvantage. Jerzy Janowicz, for instance, couldn't travel for part of last year because he didn't have the money and his tennis federation had none to help him out. Imagine how good he might be if he had had the same advantages as Donald Young!
     
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  18. IdrinkYourMilkshake

    IdrinkYourMilkshake Rookie

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    Top players get paid just enough to keep them happy and the bottom 95% get scraps, but always show up because they love the game. However none of it would be possible without the Qualifiers and early Round players. They should start a Union. Every other Professional Sport Union gets better than 12%.
     
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  19. Amelie Mauresmo

    Amelie Mauresmo Banned

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    Tennis players are being treated unfairly but is hard to have sympathy for players like Federer he's on the Forbes list as one of the top paid male athletes in the world. I think Federer makes over 50 million in endorsements a year or something like that.

    I also heard that some players are critical of Federer they feel he isn't outspoken enough when he should be about demanding more money for the players. Andy Murray has been very vocal that the lower ranked players deserve a bigger cut of the prize money at the slams.

    It is the lower ranked players who REALLY need more money. Tennis is very expensive I heard it costs over $35,000 a year maybe even more just to travel the world to play events. This does not include hotel, food ect. paying a coach or trainer.

    Pro tennis is extremely expensive the lower ranked players deserve a bigger cut of the pie. The prize money needs to be much higher why not pay the first round of a grand slam $40,000 or something?
     
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  20. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Compared to other big sports, tennis players are severely underpaid. You got NBA benchwarmers who play a few minutes, a few games a season that still make half a million
     
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  21. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    the lower ranked guys at major tournaments need to get paid better. it costs a lot just to qualify for these.

    i can only see it if they organise together as a union or something.
     
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  22. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    The costs of marketing and an on-going league-type sporting even like the NHL are lower as a percentage of total revenue than they are for annual evens like the tennis majors.

    Not saying the percentages shouldn't be adjusted, but that the comparison of tennis and NHL isn't an even one for a variety of reasons. Another main one is NHL players are effectively paid staff, not individual sportsmen, paid by their employers who negotiate the majority of the sponsorship deals for the team.
     
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  23. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Maintaining the courts and venue, cleaning toilets, paying staff like carpark attendants/security guards, huge media spend to promote the event, legal fees etc.

    Some of the numbers you see about business revenues are not all they seem. A major tournament may make $20m profit but they may have had to risk $200 for that 10% return. Someone has to finance that, mitigate risk (financial or otherwise), hedge ahead for bad years etc.
     
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  24. cork_screw

    cork_screw Hall of Fame

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    I don't think the players can control what happens. Unlike the NBA, NFL, MLB (i know those are all domestic and this is an international organization but still...) There isn't a unifying body that protects them in a union. They won't all boycott (which is needed) because there's players who are outside the top 20 who would love to play in a tournament worth big points minus big names. Those players would love to play for the points and money if anyone chooses to boycott anything. Also, those players wouldn't have the ability to stop playing to protest anything as they are dirt poor and like a shark need to keep swimming to survive. So a boycott on any level here is really out of the question. You cannot support a labor union that buys into thousands of individual players who probably couldn't afford to pay routine labor fees. So that structure just wouldn't work for the tennis body.

    In this case, the ATP and WTA body is the casino and they make the rules. You can follow and play the games or you can leave, the door is always open whether you choose to leave or stay.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2013
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  25. IdrinkYourMilkshake

    IdrinkYourMilkshake Rookie

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    Well unless they do start a Union. This is why they will pay the top guys just enough to keep them happy. If the top players agreed to a boycott and got another 25% below them to join, I think then we're talking a cancellation of event. They wouldn't put the show on to allow a low ranked player to win. However, if a future top player doesn't forget his roots so to speak and gets more agressive than Federer, then it's a real possibility. Like Andy Murray potentially. Once Federer is retired and more shuffle happens, we could see some new type of leadership taken.
     
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  26. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    Well said. Using unionized players in other sports as the basis is illogical.

    I was surprised when a few yrs ago people got all excited that Fed, Nadal, and Djokovic all got involved in the Players Council. Can Fed really relate to the Michael Russells, Flavio Cippollas, Bjorn Phaus of the tour while sitting in his private plane? And we saw Nadal's involvement - it was to change the ranking system to suit his desire to play less non-clay tournaments. The 2 yr ranking would have made it much more difficult for the lower players to move up the rankings. And Team Djokovic found out the realities of running a tournament; don't get big names, don't get sponsors or sell tickets.

    Bottom line: you're worth what you can get in any field. Sounds cruel, but if the lower ranked players can't get financed to stay on tour OR climb up in the rankings, they have to go into another profession. There will always be guys ready to be the 1st round fodder. Without Google, does anyone remember who Fed beat in the 1st round of the '08 majors?
     
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  27. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

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    Is this the newest excuse as to why Nads isn't playing.
     
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  28. vandre

    vandre Hall of Fame

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    since you guys brought it up, i'm not sure i'd hold up the nhl as a shining example of how to run things. alot of my hockey fan buddies are mad as ~@#$@#$@~# and i get the feeling that this last little stoppage didn't endear them to their fans. if there were a strike in tennis, there is always a risk of losing fans (which increases the longer it goes and the nastier it gets). then there's the chance that not everyone will boycott/ strike/ whatever. sure the top guys (big four or top 50 or 100 even) may not play, but there will be lower ranked players that may find playing a slam without the top 4 or 50 or 100 guys in the world too tempting a prize to pass up. now if that happens you obviously won't get the fed/nadal/djokovic/ murray shakeup in the final but there probably still would be a tournament fielded and played. now it promises to be significantly less epic than a tourney with the top players in it but i doubt that there would be a total stoppage of play at the slams even if there is a boycott of some sort (just like the quality of games went down with the nfl replacement players and more recently refs). if you are rooting for a stoppage/ boycott/ strike, keep in mind that there will still probably be play; it will just be like watching ncaa matches.

    the men voted a couple of years ago through their player representatives to disproportionately skew the prize money for the later rounds of a major at the expense of the earlier rounds (whereas the wta uses a steady percentage for an "even" breakdown"). both the atp and wta have the same amount of prize money (for better or worse) but the atp voted to concentrate theirs at the upper end of the result pool while the wta voted to spread theirs out more evenly. this was the decision of the atp player reps not a decision forced on them by an external power. if the lower ranked guys have a problem with this, they need to make sure they get a player rep sympathetic to their cause.
     
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  29. Monsieur_DeLarge

    Monsieur_DeLarge Semi-Pro

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    Can't tell you about other slams without a bit of research, but for 2012 the British Lawn Tennis Association's figures were:

    Revenue: £65.6 million
    Profit: £37.8 million
    Investment in players: £12.3 million
    "Encouraging people to play": £17 million

    Sources: BBC, LTA Financial Review



    Regards,
    MDL
     
    #29

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