Guess the NTRP Level

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by drakulie, Oct 10, 2007.

  1. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Last edited: Oct 10, 2007
    #1
  2. Sup2Dresq

    Sup2Dresq Hall of Fame

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    Not only does he look older in years.. his game is so old school. He would kick most peoples butts if the match was played with wooden racquets. For today's modern racquets and game i would say 3.5 in FL, a 4.0 in the Mid Atlantic area.

    Okay, I don't trust you. Is this guy someone famous?
     
    #2
  3. Cobaine

    Cobaine Rookie

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    3.5

    Possibly 4.0 if you have a solid mental game and knowledge of court geometry [from a point building standpoint].
     
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  4. qwerty66

    qwerty66 Semi-Pro

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    4.0-4.5?
    cuz it doesn't look like he is trying very hard
    and seems to hit the ball pretty solid
     
    #4
  5. ThePro101

    ThePro101 Rookie

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    Very solid -- Former pro? - possible multiple GS winner??
     
    #5
  6. Jack the Hack

    Jack the Hack Hall of Fame

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    drak... it's been awhile, but I think you and I have the same NTRP level (4.5) and background (small college tennis, limited Open success). Anyway, I just love these type of threads. As we've discussed before, you could put a video of a top 50 pro practicing in a park or back court on this forum, and people would say they're a 3.5 or less!

    As for the video you posted, it's virtually impossible to tell the player's level because he is just standing in one place hitting what looks like warm up balls. You never get to see the player run for a ball, hit a volley, or an overhead, or a serve... much less play any points. Besides, competition is what determines a player's true level, not the mechanics of their strokes. To make a real determination of NTRP level, I would rather see a list of this player's tournament results than a short video like this.

    Given all that, I think you posted this for fun... so I'll bite:

    There is an old geezer at our club that hits just like this guy. He used to be a 5.0 several years ago, but after not playing USTA League for about 5 years, he self rated at 4.0 for a team this year... and was DQ'd up to 4.5 after 4 or 5 matches. Not knowing anything else about the player in the video and with the caveats above, I'd say he might be a 4.5 also.
     
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  7. Cobaine

    Cobaine Rookie

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    Jack makes a good point, that it's hard to tell just from strokes. Now that I think about it, a couple guys I played in a 5.0 league last year had strokes that looked like crap, and played junky tennis, but they knew how to win points. They were on the bottom of the ladder because poor technique and junk only gets you so far, but they were still good players.
     
    #7
  8. Purostaff

    Purostaff Banned

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    He doesn't have a top-spin backhand? But everything else looks solid. If he has a good serve, I'd rate him 4.0
     
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  9. power_play21

    power_play21 Semi-Pro

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    ok, whatever this guy is, one thing i can guarantee you, hes not getting to every ball after a certain level lol. might fracture a hip or something...
     
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  10. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Interesting comments so far. keep them coming. I went ahead and edited my initial post to include some volleys.
     
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  11. krz

    krz Professional

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    Is it me or did he not miss for 1:10 seconds?
     
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  12. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    That what I like about you>>> Your attention to detail. :)

    Correct. He did not miss one shot.
     
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  13. sharpy

    sharpy Banned

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    I love these stupid threads. Post a video of someone with crappy looking form from a crappy angle and then ask for the ntrp.

    Once all the suckers say, "definately 3.5.. 4.0 max if he's consistent!"

    You then post, "haha... see how stupid these forum raters are? This guy is a pro! haha!!!"
     
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  14. ohplease

    ohplease Professional

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    This thread exists as a trap. That old guy can play.

    I wouldn't be the least surprised to hear he's nationally ranked in his age group, or that he regularly plays open tournaments.

    On the other hand, we don't see him move, so he might be slumming at 4.0.

    Could really go either way, but I'm betting that someone who hits shots of that quality, that consistently, is pretty darn good.
     
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  15. Cobaine

    Cobaine Rookie

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    I don't know if I would call those shots "quality", aside from the fact they all went in the court. To me, his strokes don't look pretty, but they seem fluid at least. Makes me think he's better than he appears.
     
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  16. VaBeachTennis

    VaBeachTennis Semi-Pro

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    The guy looks like an old Australian grass court player. Somewhat of a continental grip and swing, slice backhand, and pretty solid volleys. NTRP >4.5
     
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  17. Cobaine

    Cobaine Rookie

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    Yeah, I've watched it 3-4 times now. He's better than I first rated him. From what I noticed after repeated viewings, he has good balance and hits with stokes that developed from playing with a wood racket. I bet he knows his way around the court.

    I'd give him a 4.5. He couldn't beat a 5.0 though, at least not here in CA.
     
    #17
  18. Jack the Hack

    Jack the Hack Hall of Fame

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    drakulie... any video of this guy actually playing some points?

    Even with the additional video showing the volley and overhead, this guy is still just warming up and doesn't have to move his feet much. I've seen plenty of players that look like Sampras in the warm-up, but can't keep a ball in once the match starts... and I've also seen plenty of veterans that sleepwalk through the warm-up, but pick you apart when it counts.
     
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  19. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    ^^^ No points. I took this video from my balcony this morning when I woke up. I live in a tennis community with 23 courts. This guy, whom I've hit with a few times lives there and was just practicing drills. He is an ex NCAA champion. By the way, he is 70+ years old, and could move quite well.
     
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  20. snoopy

    snoopy Professional

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    This one is tricky b/c of age.

    Clearly he has very consistent, grooved strokes. He looks like he gets good extension and he probably drives the ball well. So he's probably capable of regularly hitting deep into the court, one of the key signs of a good player.

    Volleys, overheads, and ground strokes all look smooth - he's in total control of his movement (a feeling I rarely experience, lol)

    However b/c of his age his footwork is poor and he probably can't get to many shots.

    If he sticks to an older age group this guy would kick butt. Yet if he plays younger guys he's in trouble, might get beat by youngins with worse technique.

    So I'll say 4.5.
     
    #20
  21. Supernatural_Serve

    Supernatural_Serve Professional

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    This thread is a perfect example of the meaninglessness of such questions such as "what level is this...person, or stroke, or game" from a video or even watching them hit in person.

    NTRP levels are only meaningful in terms of match play results, preferably USTA league and tournament matches.
     
    #21
  22. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    The first video looks like he's casually hitting warm-up shots. He's very consistent. You can tell he's a player by watching the overheads. He doesn't go for too much and his timing seems to be correct. Nice accurate overheads, not something you see even from most 4.0s.

    Still, how do you rate old guys?
     
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  23. shintan17

    shintan17 Semi-Pro

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    He hits everyball solid. I know he is aging and his movement is probably limited, but I definitely feel like this guy can still play at 4.5, probably not at 5.0 because the guys nowadays are just so much stronger and place balls better (because of strings, racquet technologies, and better athleticism) than when he was playing in college. Very nice stroke, though!!
     
    #23
  24. soyizgood

    soyizgood G.O.A.T.

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    Probably 3.5. He has power, obviously. But his backhand and backhand slice leave much to be desired. He doesn't get any real topspin on his forehand either and he let some balls get really low before making contact. Doesn't really extend his stroke so that may result in some balls sailing. Still he looks like he's played a while and has some idea of what he's doing.
     
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  25. shintan17

    shintan17 Semi-Pro

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    The guy is a former NCAA champion...I don't think he is at 3.5 even with his age.
     
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  26. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Too funny! :)

    Interesting thougths posted so far. One that is very interesting is the mentioning of this guys backhand "slice". Fact is, he didn't put slice on any of those shots. They are all flat, or have some topspin (very little). The other thing worth mentioning is all his shots landed in, and behind the service line.

    Keep the thoughts coming.
     
    #26
  27. Clintspin

    Clintspin Semi-Pro

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    He looks very solid and I know enough not to judge a guy by his age. I play with some 60+ guys that are 4.5 players and this guy looks like he could be much better. I bet he can move well for his age and get everything back in play with his consistent game. Are we talking NTRP for senior play or any league?
     
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  28. jmverdugo

    jmverdugo Hall of Fame

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    I wouldnt know about his NTRP but i would love to play doubles with him as my partner. It would be really fun and he would make us win :).
     
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  29. Noveson

    Noveson Hall of Fame

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    I would say 4.0, I'm probably going to be way off. Doesn't seem to to be able to hit very well off the backhand side, looks like a very flat ball. Consistency would make up for the power, but if that's how he moves he could have some problems. Maybe 3.5.
     
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  30. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    Background: I do not know what I am, I don't play tournaments, I just drill and practice a lot..and play sets of singles and dubs with old buds. I'm thinking I'd do well in 5.5s now, probably fine in 35 and overs.

    ANyway, during my last two years traveling/playing opens and satellites (early 90s), I used to barely beat a guy who played about twenty slams in the Hoad, Rosewall, Laver, pre-open era. The guy was 50+, and his strokes were a little choppy (as was his footwork), but his returns and passes were absolutely lethal. And, what a volleyer! I hope I'm that level when I'm 40, let alone 50!

    A female college player I dated at the time came and watched the end of one of our practices....she thought it was ridiculous I'd often drop a set to a guy his age. After a post-match beer and a few stories about the circuit I think she developed a kind of crush on the guy....and wanted to set her aunt up with him.

    He was single...and he and Aunt Carla went out a few times!
    Hilarity ensued....and the relationship lasted a few sleepovers....which is why I will not be typing his actual name in here.

    Moral of the story: many old dudes are actually pretty stylin', even if they eat dinner at like 4:30.

    Good one Drak.

    BTW, Allen Fox is still a baller.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2007
    #30
  31. shintan17

    shintan17 Semi-Pro

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    So, he is a former NCAA champion, right? It all depends on how he moves on the court. Very hard to tell from just casual warmups, and some overheads. His volleys are soild, but nowadays, players can take advantage of short balls so much better than probably 50+ years ago when he was a champ!! Let me guess again...hmmm good 4.0-low 4.5, I would be surprised if he is 5.0.
     
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  32. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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  33. tbini87

    tbini87 Hall of Fame

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    i would guess 4.0-4.5. he did not move at all on any of those shots, which might make him look slow or old, and he might be able to move well but i could not possibly know that. obviously very solid with probably plenty of years of tennis under his belt.
     
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  34. XhotXEX1290

    XhotXEX1290 Rookie

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    ntrp.4.0-4.5 i dk if he can win against some younger 4.5s.
     
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  35. couch

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    Okay Drakulie I haven't read through all the posts but I'm going to guess this guy is a 4.5. He may not be a 4.5 singles player but I bet he plays a mean doubles game. :) He reminds me a lot of a guy that plays at our club who was on the Kentucky 4.5 Senior team that won Nationals. This guy was a pretty good 4.5 but because of his results at Senior Sectionals and Nationals he got bumped to 5.0.

    The guy I'm talking about is still a good 4.5 doubles player but wouldn't compete at 5.0 and would have a hard time competing at 4.5 singles. He would do fairly well though at 4.5 doubles. There are just some things you lose as you get older, namely speed around the court and power. If these guys don't have to move they probably are 5.0 players but tennis is a game of movement. ;)
     
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  36. couch

    couch Hall of Fame

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    The thing is he would probably beat the younger 4.5s and lose to the older 4.5s. Some things come with age. ;)
     
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  37. Thud and blunder

    Thud and blunder Semi-Pro

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    I can't believe some people rate the guy 3.5. A benchmark 3.5 won't get a game off this guy.
     
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  38. WBF

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    You can't tell because he isn't playing points.

    But if I had to guess, I'd say he's a very, very solid player. While footwork is important, you simply can't hide beautiful strokes like that by looking lazy.

    I'd say at one point he was nationally or world ranked, maybe still is.

    Never take anything anyone who mentioned 3.x says seriously again.
     
    #38
  39. johnny ballgame

    johnny ballgame Professional

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    Agree, probably a very good doubles player (or singles in his age bracket).

    Clearly solid but difficult to judge because he didn't take more than two steps to get to ANY of those shots in the video.
     
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  40. WBF

    WBF Hall of Fame

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    Exactly. Age is a factor but...

    I know a guy in his late 40's who can hardly move at all due to bad knees (much, much more awkward than the guy in the video).

    He destroys many open level players in singles.

    He destroys many national/world class players in doubles.

    Skill and experience often trump age.
     
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  41. Jack the Hack

    Jack the Hack Hall of Fame

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    I know two of the top 70+ players in my section and have hit with both of them. They are both rated 4.0, but were never NCAA champs. However, one of these guys still holds the state high school basketball record for most points scored in a game and the other is an ex-baseball coach - so both were very good athletes in their time.

    When you play sets with either one of these players, you will quickly find out that they don't move very well. However, if you try to overpower them, it will not work. If they can get a racquet on the ball, they can play... and they often place the ball very well. The key to beating them is to move the ball from corner to corner to take advantage of the movement issues. I could see either one of these players beating inexperienced 4.0 opponents quite easily, but they get hammered by 4.5 players.

    To get a better idea of what a national level 70+ player is rated, I looked at the top 20 from the national rankings last year. 10 out of the top 20 are rated 4.5, and the remainders are 4.0. The top 2 from Florida were 4.5, and the rest were 4.0. I'm not sure if the guy in the video is amongst this group, but I would say the assessment of 4.0 to 4.5 is probably correct.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2007
    #41
  42. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Haven't read the replies so far, 'cause it's more fun that way!

    He's probably a 5.0 who isn't trying. That's what my pro looks like when he's just feeding the ball to me. Minimal movement, minimal energy.

    If that is the best he can play -- if he plays with that low level of intensity and doesn't have another gear -- then I'd say 3.5.
     
    #42
  43. kevhen

    kevhen Hall of Fame

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    His footwork is 3.5 but his consistency and pace is 4.5 level. He could play 4.5 doubles. He has good strokes. He might use better footwork in match but is just being efficiently lazy with his feet while practicing. He places his shots very well as they all go out to the center and his opponent hit them all back to the center which is 4.5 level placement.
     
    #43
  44. Phil

    Phil Hall of Fame

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    He's just having a light warm-up, and his strokes are good enough, and he has enough experience, that he probably doesn't HAVE to move all that much anymore to beat younger players.

    I've played older guys who at first glance looked like they were standing still, but come game time, beat the snot out of me (and other younger "hot shots"). Without video of serious playing/drilling, I wouldn't have any idea of his NTRP.
     
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  45. WBF

    WBF Hall of Fame

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    A 4.5 player can maintain every single shot in 1:10 right to the center, in, and behind the service line?

    I guess I'm not a 4.5 yet. Oh well.
     
    #45
  46. theroguedog

    theroguedog New User

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    Looks like a nationally ranked player, probably #1 or #2 in the 65's for the past few years.
     
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  47. VGP

    VGP Legend

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    Thanks for posting, drakulie.....




    ....uh, guys.......





    ......that's.......





    KEN ROSEWALL!
     
    #47
  48. VGP

    VGP Legend

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    Could tell immediately.....

    Classic eastern forehand....never comes over the ball on the backhand.

    Rosewall has a idiosynchratic push of his fist on the followthrough on the backhand side.

    Plus physically, "Muscles" is 5'7" and is slightly bowlegged.

    Apart from style and whatnot.....looks to me that he's not missing a shot.

    Very no nonsense and no slop.
     
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  49. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    Good answer!


    But if that's Ken Rosewall, I'd like to meet the guy who shaved Rosewall's legendary eyebrows!
     
    #49
  50. johnny ballgame

    johnny ballgame Professional

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    Rosewall never played a NCAA match.
     
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