Guys, what should he do to beat Roger?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by arosen, Aug 1, 2004.

  1. arosen

    arosen Hall of Fame

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    OK guys, it should by now be painfully obvious to all of those who still argue that Federer is not the best thing out there that Roger is out of this world good. He kicks unreal ass. Down 0-40 and he comes up with three aces? Sounds familiar, Pete? However, my hat goes off to Andy. Dude is busting his chops to get better and he almost makes it. Every time. Seven times now. He had to improve his backhand and he did, he can stay with Roger and even beat him in B to B exchanges. He can slice it so low, Fed misfires and wacks it out. His forehand is never a suspect, his serve a blazing weapon, he is as fit as one can be and yet....he walks off the court a loser. By golly, as much as I am a Federer's fan, I can almost feel Andy's pain. I mean, why on earth can he not get a win out of Roger when he's got it all? What do you guys think? Should he learn how to volley? What? Gilbert oughtta be wondering by now, what do you do against the guy like Fed? Suggestions, anyone?
     
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  2. mileslong

    mileslong Professional

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    well, while he has made strides with his backhand it is still pedestrian for a touring pro. his net work is still below average for a touring pro. his biggest weapon is neutralized with federer because he can return roddicks serves. roddick only had 4 aces i believe while fed had like 12.

    he is not in trmendous shape, he was sweating like a pig out there today and still has baby fat on him. fed and agassi are examples of fitness.

    my invaluable advice would be for him to get fitter, play a lot of clay mathes to improve his shotmaking ability and work tirelessly on volleys.
     
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  3. mileslong

    mileslong Professional

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    double post
     
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  4. msn

    msn New User

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    There are at least a couple of things:

    First, AR will have to, at least occasionally, follow his serve into net against Fed. Fed was able to just block or float back a lot of returns, and AR was quickly backpedaling to the baseline to hit a ground stroke. Over the course of the day AR faced a lot more pressure on his serve than either he is used to, or than Fed did.

    Second, mix up the serve more. He normally does this against other players, but I swear he hit every single second serve a kicker to feds backhand. Only when he got the kicker short in the box did he gain any advantage.

    Last, he needs to play further into the court. While he did well in rallies today, he was continually five to ten feet behind the base line while Fed was standing right on it or behind it.
     
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  5. Vlad

    Vlad Professional

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    There is not much he can do right now. Maybe he rattles a little bit when Fed returns his 230k bombs. He get out of his comfort zone and needs to go for even more than he can.
    What he needs to do is the same as he did in the first set of Wimbledon, just fire away. If he can keep it up in 3 set match, he might win. On the other hand, on hard the balls doesn't skid and it is much more difficult to just fire through the court.
    Fed did to Andy what Andy does to other players. Frustrate him with aces on breakpoints, big shots on important points.
     
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  6. VamosRafa

    VamosRafa Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, it's going to be difficult for Andy. Roger knows when he has to raise his level, and he did it today.

    Still, as Roger himself pointed out, these guys are young, with many more matches to play. Andy has things to improve, and I'm sure he'll eek out a win here and there.

    But no doubt, Roger is the No. 1 player by far right now. Kudos to him.

    But I still think that Andy would have won if he hadn't played his first day match today. :lol: J/K :wink:
     
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  7. Pyro

    Pyro Rookie

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    There is actually a few things.

    First: Fitness, he needs to work on footwork and speed
    Second: Work on consistent groundstrokes. He goes for broke so much that Fed just has to get them back and wait for him to make the error.
    Third:Learn to volley =)
    Fourth:Mix up the serve and go for the serve to the body s&v, especially on big points. If used sparingly it can take down anyone.
    Fifth:Landing on Federer in a skydiving accident is sounding pretty good right about now.
     
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  8. Metzler

    Metzler Rookie

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    Roddick has lapped the rest of the field, and Federer has lapped him. All my ribbing Roddick fans' aside, this series will probably end up in Fed's favor something like Becker's 25-10 over Edberg. If Roddick were ever to win head-to-head in a major over Federer, it would have to be at the US Open.
    Federer has a great blend of movement, power and touch. Roddick's slight edge in power can't make up for his big deficits in the other two areas, no matter what he and Brad cook up.
     
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  9. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    i agree w. metzler. fed is simply better than roddick and has a much broader skillset. roddick is improving, but so is fed <that's pretty scarey huh?>. roddick has seperated himself from the rest of the field and fed has seperated himself from roddick. unless someone else comes up thru the ranks out of nowhere, i dont see any of this changing anytime soon. i dont think roddicks plan of just throwing more power at fed is the answer...ed
     
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  10. The tennis guy

    The tennis guy Hall of Fame

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    Well, there is only that much a coach can do. Roddick is the second best. Myabe he just has to accept that for a while if Federer keeps his level of player. Roddick has more power than Federer. However, Federer is not someone who can be over powered easily. Players like Hewitt, Nalbadian give Federer more trouble than pure power players like Roddick, Safin.

    I think Roddick has to change strategy a little. He tried at Wimbledon to go for broke, it didn't work out for him. On slower surface, there is no way he can go for broke on every shot to beat Federer unless he is perfect on go for broke. That chance is quite small, maybe 1 in 7, I suppose.

    I don't agree many suggestions here. For example, Roddick shouldn't stay far behind baseline. True, however, you have to consider Roddick's stroke style, which is big backswing. He has to stay behind baseline when someone hits the ball deep. As of improving his volley, yes it helps. Again, I don't think he is ever going to become a great volleyer. His instinct isn't there.

    There is one thing he can do, to improve his service toss. As Federer says, he can read Roddick's serve. Roddick's tosses are different for flat serve and kick serve. He should learn from Sampras and Federer to serve different types of serve with same toss. It is not easy to do. But it certainly will help him more than anything else everyone proposed here.
     
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  11. VamosRafa

    VamosRafa Hall of Fame

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    Very funny, Pyro. :lol: But Richard Vach's Top 10 list does seem appropriate now, doesn't it? :lol:

    Seriously,

    I like this comment, because I think it's dead on. It's true.

    What I don't like is people saying Andy got to the final coz he got this cushy draw, or Fed had it harder because he had to play a lefty, or whatever.

    These guys have distanced themselves from the pack, and Roger has distanced himself from Andy, no doubt.

    Now there's lots of catch-up work on the part of everyone. Again, total kudos to Roger.

    But I like seeing folks acknowledge that Andy isn't a joke of a player, as was posted here not that long ago. As I said then, if he's the joke, then who is the butt of it? Must be the rest of the ATP. :?
     
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  12. tguru

    tguru Rookie

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    Guys, what makes these Federer wins so impressive is that Roddick is clearly playing with nothing to lose, going for broke frequently and still getting beat. He has said as much with the "kitchen sink" comments. To those who suggest he play safer and reduce the UEs I think he gets beat handily if he plays the game he uses against #3-#100. For anyone who has played any other sports you know much easier and even fun it can be to go for broke against a superior opponent. Federer is amazing!
     
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  13. Phil

    Phil Hall of Fame

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    I think Boris Becker answered this one correctly during a BBC telecast of a Federer Wimbledon Match; the play-by-play guy asked Boris how he would beat Federer if he were playing now. Boris, deadpan, said: "I vud take him out the night before and get him drunk." That about says it. Law of averages says he WILL cool off, and will, eventually lose one to Roddick. Eventually.
     
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  14. alienhamster

    alienhamster Hall of Fame

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    I echo the other comments above about Andy needing to be a bit more patient during the rallies. His power is awesome and all, but he was pulling the trigger *way* too early today and making a ton of unforced errors. Federer was really struggling to get his strokes together the past few days, and both Santoro and TJ mostly stayed with him in rallies until he made many errors in a row. This made him doubt himself and play more conservatively.

    But Andy never really gave Roger a chance to mess up. He should have played more balls deep & with cover and run Roger around a bit to tire him out more (since he said he was exhausted even before the match began today).

    I too wish he'd concentrate on getting a good clay game together. It would help his game out on the other surfaces as well.
     
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  15. VictorS.

    VictorS. Professional

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    Like a few of you have alluded to earlier....I think Roddick's movement and quickness around the court could perhaps improve. Obviously Roddick is a naturally gifted athlete, but perhaps he could improve in this department. I dunno if that means losing a little bit of weight or maybe hiring a speed coach to help him with footwork. It just seems like when Roddick gets on the run during points against Federer...he's in trouble. On the other hand, when Federer is moving....he's so dangerous.

    Roddick's movement is actually pretty good. But obviously when trying to solve the Federer...you gotta knit-pick.
     
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  16. rommil

    rommil Legend

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    Use a racket with less power, concentrate more on placement and consistency.
     
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  17. ChiefAce

    ChiefAce Semi-Pro

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    The bottom line is he simply cannot beat Roger unless Roger beats himself. People keep talking about how Roddick needs to improve his volley but Federer does such a good job at passing that it wouldn't make much of a difference.

    Roddick has to be consistantly hitting 90+ mph approach shots off his forehand yet Federer gets to the ball keeps his balance and hits winners or keeps it low.

    Put aside overall titles and longevity because nobody has ever played tennis at this level before. Federer has NO weaknesses and nobody on tour can beat him right now unless he plays a horrible match. Federer didn't even really play that well this week, he wasn't taking the ball very early against Roddick but still beat him 7-5, 6-3.

    Federer is the greatest to ever play the game and unless he breaks a leg he should walk to the title at the Open this year. 3 slams in one year and victories on all surfaces in one year? Not bad huh? I'm not sure if any male player has ever had 6,000 points on the computer for the 12 month rankings but Roger is very close right now in the 5,600 range. Pretty amazing.

    The GOAT
     
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  18. Kobble

    Kobble Hall of Fame

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    The USTA would need to make matches 12 sets long, and have numerous body doubles to substitute for Roddick during the bathroom breaks.
     
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  19. Anonymous

    Anonymous Professional

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    andy should give up, he sucks and he knows it. he cant beat federer cuz his serve doesnt work against him and roddick cant stand in the backhand court against feder.

    ANDY QUIT LIFE AND GO HOME TO NEBRASKA
     
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  20. stevens

    stevens New User

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    :eek: GILBERT HAS TO PULL A TONYA HARDING @ THE OPEN - it's the only way..... :twisted:
     
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  21. speedofpain88

    speedofpain88 Rookie

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    Take 10-15mph off his serve and use a little more spin and placement. Gilbert needs to get him to do this, but he's stubborn and Andy just likes to blast his serve in the middle. His ball toss could be improved perhaps.

    He has to go for less on his shots period. Going for a huge forehand down the line on break point isn't a high percentage shot. He's too inconsisten if he goes for the huge shot. He needs to use angles better and stop running around the backhand (he does it less than before, but he did it a couple of times in the final and left the whole court open for Fed.) He needs to rethink his whole "my advantage is that I can hit the crap out of the ball."

    He still gives up on shots that I think he could get to. A never say die attitude never hurt anybody. Also, he needs to stop getting so worked up over line calls, or points he loses. He could be better mentally in general. He also needs to work harder on fitness in my opinion although I don't think Fed is fitter than him.

    He shouldn't come to the net if he's just going to smack every volley into the net. He looks so uncomfortable there, its like "I'm at the net, I've already lost this point". So either he has to work on his volleying or he should stop coming to the net period. However, with his big serve (with a little more placement) it could be a real advantage for him.
     
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  22. VictorS.

    VictorS. Professional

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    speedofpain,

    I couldn't agree with you more. It's obvious Federer is the superior shot-maker. Roddick does have a terrific forehand, but his backhand is quite pedestrian in comparison with Federer's. Roddick is going to have to find other ways to beat this guy...whether it's stepping up his fitness a la Andre Agassi. Or perhaps adopting that "Jimmy Connors Mentality." With Gilbert, Roddick has really calmed down and it has definitely helped him out in achieving more consistent results...but I wonder if showing more emotion against Federer could get the adrenaline going
     
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  23. speedofpain88

    speedofpain88 Rookie

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    Yeah this is true, Andy rarely gets animated against Fed (maybe because he's losing) but emotion from him usually allows him to step up his game. The intensity just doesn't seem to be there against Fed, he just hangs or shakes his head.
     
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  24. alan-n

    alan-n Professional

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    What does anyone need to do to beat Federer right now? Just forget it. A focused Federer right now will beat anyone in their primes, including Pete Sampras..... He can take the ball on the rise on the run and hit winners while making it look easy and never losing his balance. Forget it, maybe Federer will stop improving his game, but he's too young to get worse... he will get better.
     
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  25. Chanchai

    Chanchai Semi-Pro

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    I will almost certainly make another post in this thread later on but.... Just wanted to put down a few of my notes here.

    -Roddick's movement is improving, but of course, still a work in progress. The consequence has been his running forehand, but that's only a short-term consequence. The guy just isn't throwing himself at that running forehand like before, but trying to make sure he's primed for the recovery step. There were a few times he was wrongfooted because I think he overcommitted to getting to ideal position a few times and Federer just has incredible shots at times that you just don't get the opportunity to get into ideal recovery position.

    -In the first set, Roddick actually STEPPED UP! However, he was hitting a lot of forehands long, especially when hitting balls on the rise. For much of the first set, he was around the baseline or within two feet of it. HOWEVER... in the second set, he went back to about 5 feet behind the baseline a lot (probably becuase of the frustrating differential he had in the first set). When standing on the baseline, his backhand is more reliable but his forehand is iffy. When standing far behind, his backhand becomes more bait for his opponents, but he can comfortably blast that forehand deep and also wait for that ball to sit into his strike zone.

    -He had some freebies at net early on that I could not believe he botched up.... he sort of made up for that later on though. But giving up freebies is giving up freebies.

    -Both players had iffy first serves it seemed in the first set. But Roddick's first serve percentage wasn't that bad... Roger is fine though imo. As far as I can tell, Roger's trying to put more pace on his first serve, but his second serve is still mostly dominant. Roddick made some horrible double-faults... But I can't say he had a horrible service day. The fact is, and this has always been known, Roger reads Roddick's serves like no other (aside from maybe Andre Agassi--another player who has owned Roddick for most of the past, if not all of it).

    -I know it's Roger Federer that we're talking about... but some of those shots off of his back foot or off balance to the side were amazing and well... my word, that's gotta drive you nuts when you think you have the guy off and he hits winners. But that's Federer :)

    -Roddick's backhands weren't deep enough imo, but they were well enough to make sure Roger would play the patient game. At the very least, Roddick was playing well in backhand rallies. His slice backhand was doing a good enough job of encouraging Roger to loop the ball in so Roddick could choose how to handle the return.

    -Roger was amazing on big points. Not really new news.

    Just a few quick notes, or at least how I saw the match.

    -Chanchai
     
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  26. RB

    RB Rookie

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    I didnt see the whole match--but the first comment out of my mouth was that Andy seemed to be hitting a lot of balls short....landing right around the service line-----he needs to play closer to the baseline when he can....
     
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  27. babar

    babar Semi-Pro

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    I think that ARod needs to play with a little mor cushion to his shots. He needs to roll a few more balls deep with some height and not try ot overpower Fed everyrally. He gets the feel for that too easily and then Roddick's biggest weapon is neutralized. By selectively using his weapon, ARod can dictate the effectiveness of the power game. Also, Andy should expect every 130mph plus serve of his to come back! He can't get annoyed that those are coming back. It is frustrating to be up 0-40 and get aced 3 times, but you got to expect it from Fed now. I think slow-balling Fed and trying to use the power to win big points will go a long way.
     
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  28. lelopez

    lelopez Rookie

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    To those who say that Roddick’s backhand is still mediocre for a pro, I disagree with you. His backhand has improved a hundredfold, and the reason it is seen as “weak” is because it is constantly compared with his forehand shot. I think his backhand is as good in consistency, depth and pace as any other two-hander out there. However, I do agree that his backhand return of serve could use a lot of work.

    I think Roddick’s biggest improvement for the future in beating Federer will be to get much more mentally tough. Although he’s come a long ways since pairing up with Gilbert, he still breaks down mentally a lot, and unfortunately on the bigger points during a match. I’m sure Roddick is nowhere near where Gilbert would like him to be mentally. He’s got a great game and definitely the weapons to beat Federer, but if he can’t put that game together mentally then it is all wasted talent. Pete had that mental toughness, so did Edberg, Agassi found it late in his career, and we all know Federer has it. When Roddick gets mentally tougher and believes he can beat Federer, that’s when he’ll come out on top.
     
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  29. D.  Nelson

    D. Nelson Semi-Pro

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    ...I think that between all of the posters...and all of the different posters....everything HAS been said.... My 'combination' OF those things : he HAS to S/V more...and PICK the spots/times !! He's got to work on varying the serve....more offspeed....more 'change-ups' !! Someone is going to HAVE to help him break up/search Fed's error stats....how many bh c.c. passing shots....versus down the line.... (this, just as an EXAMPLE!)....and USE those stats...there definitely ARE 'tendencies' --- even with Federer....even though I don't think ANYbody would have beaten him, yesterday...and Roddick got AS CLOSE AS ANYone 'could' have !!! I DO think Roddick WILL win his 'share' (at LEAST 50%!).....just not quite yet !!! A G R E A T MATCH !!
     
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  30. speedofpain88

    speedofpain88 Rookie

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    Tim Henman is 6-2 against Fed. Tim he is an inferior serve and volley player to Pete. What information do you have to back up this wild assumption? Fed has had trouble against some of today's serve and volley players. None of them can even come close to Pete.
     
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  31. AndyC

    AndyC Semi-Pro

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    Tim is 6-2 against Fed but I somehow don't see this being the way their final record will stand. Same with Nalbandian and Hewitt. Fed of now is very different from Fed of 6 months ago or even Fed of last year. Simply put since the Hamburg Masters which he won he's only lost in the FO. This Fed would dominate anyone who has a previously winning record against him.

    Which S&V player has given Fed trouble recently?
     
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  32. VamosRafa

    VamosRafa Hall of Fame

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    Excellent thread, IMO.

    Lots of constructive comments, and some good ones. Perhaps Andy should log on and read some.

    And I think he does, actually. :wink:

    I don't know if you caught this in the latest People mag, but the question in the Chatter section was "Have you ever Goggled Yourself?"

    Andy was asked, he said:

    "You can get the articles written in the last 24 hours, and if someone is being a jackass [toward me], I like to know."

    Wonder what he thinks about things here? :lol:
     
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  33. jings

    jings Professional

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    Got to see the game finally last night and the overwhelming impression is of a top quality match. There wasn't much between them again. Couple of things that strike me is that although Fed reads the Roddick serve I think Roddick actually serves differently to Fed. A lot of body serves in there and he just doesn't seem to hit the ace trail as well as he does against other players and doesn't hit the wider angled serves as often. Whether this is because Fed is in his head I've no idea, but first point on Andy's serve in the match and Fed laces a f/h return up the line with pace off a slightly wide serve and wrong foots Andy straight off the bat. It wasn't a bad serve and against most that early in the match would have been fine. So already Andy is on the defensive on serve which he is not used to. Fed takes him out of his comfort zone. On second serve the kicker to the b/h was way overdone. Roddick can easy serve 200kmh seconds but doesn't against Roger. Instead it's the bick kicker into the b/h which worked early in the match but was being used quite happily by Fed by the 8-9th game. As I say I think Andy serves differently to Fed and I don't know why.

    On groundstrokes, that was as good a game as I've seen Andy play and he hit with Fed quite happily off both wings. He hits too one paced though and it is Fed who mixes up the pace and spin and Roddick who's going for it. Fed likes pace, if noone has noticed and Andy needs to change this. Finally the net game. Andy has to stop swinging at volleys and let the racquet do the work. Higher balls he's fine with because he can swing, otherwise he finds it hard. However he approached well and but for some silly shots from Fed would normally have been fine. There isn't much between these guys, but there's enough that will keep Roddick mostly on the receiving end for a while.

    Lastly, whilst Fed is no Shooter McGavin, I think Andy bears all the characteristics of Happy Gilmore .... Now if Happy can learn to putt then surely Andy can learn to volley.
     
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  34. Ryan

    Ryan New User

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    I think that in the future these results will be flipped more often. If you look at Federer and say that he has no major weakness and can only improve on a few things and then look at Roddick and think that he has major gains to make with his backhand, return and his net game. So Rodger better be soaking this up right know because in a few years he'll be the number 2 guy.
     
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  35. jings

    jings Professional

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    To be fair Ryan he's as happy to admit as much post match. He knows Andy can beat him but so far has largely raised his game sufficiently.
     
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  36. VictorS.

    VictorS. Professional

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    Maybe this is why Roddick struggles so mightily against Federer:

    Hrbaty (on his match vs. Federer): "But anyway I think he had much more trouble with my slow second serve than with the first serve because with his such great hands, if you hit fast serve, he just put it there, the hand, and you have it right back. If you play slow serve, he has to go for it, he has to hit the ball himself. Sometimes it's much more tougher than to wait for the fast ball."


    I think A-Rod should maybe take some speed off the serve and really kick the heck of the ball to Fed's backhand every time.
     
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