Haas's racquet

Discussion in 'Pros' Racquets and Gear' started by spksz, Feb 16, 2005.

  1. spksz

    spksz Rookie

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    Is tommy haas using a real Dunlop Muscle Weave 200g racquet or is it just a paintjob of another racquet?
     
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  2. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    It is the Haas mold made by Dunlop expressly and only for Tommy Haas
     
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  3. spksz

    spksz Rookie

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    is it similar to any other racquet which is sold to the public?
     
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  4. Michael Ludwig

    Michael Ludwig Rookie

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    Actually, the mold is not just for Tommy, but rather used by a handful of other Dunlop players.
     
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  5. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    oh ok..i was told there was a Haas mold, there is a Blake mold, there is a Fish mold, etc etc by someone in the know...i guess that doesnt preclude someone else using the Haas frame it if they happen to like the exact Haas frame, so you can win this discusion if you like. so who are the other players using the exact same frame as Haas then? spksz to answer your Q, i guess one of the stock Dunlops (the 200gMW?) might be similar to the Haas mold.
     
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  6. Jonas

    Jonas Semi-Pro

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    Though not as popular as the mw 200g, the Hot Melt 200g is actually a lot closer to the "pro mold" than the Muscle Weave. It's all in the thicker throat, Would you agree with that Mike? Thanks
     
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  7. Racketdesign

    Racketdesign Rookie

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    Id agree with that. I would also look at the 200g XL in terms of frame shape and string pattern
     
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  8. gregraven

    gregraven Semi-Pro

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    Dunlop's story when coming out with the Hot Melt 200G was that it was the "pro" version of the Muscle Weave 200G, and the one the pros had been using for years. As for Blake's racquet, he might have changed racquets in the last couple of years, but three or four years ago at the Mercedes Benz Open I asked him about his racquet, which appeared to me a Muscle Weave 200G. He told me he had a technician weight it up for him, but he was sketchy on the details.
     
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  9. jura

    jura Professional

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    Haas doesn't play a Dunlop racquet!

    It's his old Head Pro Tour 630 just painted as a Dunlop. I had one of his raquets in my hand and I nearly know all the racquets which were sold during the last 15 years - and this is a Head racquet. And it's quiet heavy: about 400 gr.
     
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  10. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    I was told, likewise, by someone in the know that Dunlop is the world's worst (or best depending on your viewpoint) at supplying custom made rackets to their endorsed pros. These rackets have little in common with the rackets that are sold to the public.
     
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  11. Michael Ludwig

    Michael Ludwig Rookie

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    jura, I own one of Mr. Haas's frames, and its no Head. And if my memory serves me, its more along the lines of +-380g when all put together. Wayne Ferreira and James Blake are among some of the other men using the same mold as Tommy. Interestingly enough, Wayne was testing some of Tommy's 400g cosmetic frames at last year's Nasdaq.
     
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  12. jura

    jura Professional

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    Sorry, but this racket Haas uses is a mold which was NEVER made by Dunlop. But it is very closed if not equal with Head Pro Tour (I think in the U.S. it was called something with 280; the blue/black racquet). And that's the racquet Haas was using before he changed to Dunlop. And: If it's really a Dunlop racquet, why wasn't Dunlop able to make it for him in the new (black/yellow) cosmetics for 2 years!? (Even he didn's play for nearly one year, but the whole last season he used the old design!) Anyway one thing is fact: Haas racquet has NOTHING to do with the Dunlop racquets which are sold and it has much more in common with a Head than a Dunlop.
     
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  13. Michael Ludwig

    Michael Ludwig Rookie

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    Listen, I own one of his frames, as well as having handled his frames at 2 of the past Nasdaqs. Compared to the ProTour 630, the head shape is much more elongated. In my case, I put the two side by side. Have you? Reason for Tommy's MW cosmetics throughout the life of the HotMelt series, was that he didn't like the feel of the new cosmetics. The racquets to him did not play the same. Dunlop also did the 400g cosmetics for him, in which I believe he played a few events with, but returned to his old MW paint job.
     
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  14. Swan Song

    Swan Song Professional

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    Tommy's reason for sticking with the MuscleWeave paintjob is the same reason why Pete Sampras stayed with the original paintjob that came with his St. Vincent Pro Staffs.
     
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  15. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Actually, that's not really a good comparison because Sampras really used a real PS 6.0 85 but Haas doesn't use a real MW 200G, or at least anything you and I could buy. Thus, Haas uses a paintjob but Sampras did not. Sampras just didn't paint his ProStaffs but stayed with the original black cosmetics. Haas uses something else that is painted to look like a MW 200G.
     
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  16. david aames

    david aames Professional

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    I think he was referring to the Head Premier Tour, not the ProTour 630...
    http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/HPics/HPT.html

    Now, try putting side by side a PT280 with Haas'...

     
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  17. jura

    jura Professional

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    Did you held the Haas racquet side by side to a Dunlop? Haas plays a bigger head (98 sq. in.), also the mold is more similar to Head than to Dunlop.
     
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  18. jura

    jura Professional

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    He never played a Premier Tour. The Premier Tour was a 93 sq in racquet with 16 main strings. Haas uses 98 sq. in. with 18 mains. He just used the Premier Tour cosmetics.
     
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  19. It seems like a good comparison: both Sampras and Hass rejected newer paintjobs on the same respective rackets because they felt "worse" or different.

    Right, pros use cosmetics of retail frames. That's what a paintjob is. Not to say that Haas is using or ever used a Premier Tour mold, but it's fairly easy to custom-drill a frame from any desired mold . . .
     
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  20. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    PC,
    Sampras used a REAL PS 6.0 85 with its original black paintjob, the same paintjob that comes on the PS 6.0 85 that people can buy at retail shops. Haas DOES NOT use a real MW 200G but his racquet has a MW 200G paintjob. The racquet you can buy at a retail shop with the MW 200G paintjob IS a real MW 200G, NOT the racquet that Haas uses.

    Haas did not want to switch to the paintjob of the new version of the 200G. While Sampras was playing, there was never a new version of the PS 6.0 85, so there was no need for him to switch paintjobs.

    Perhaps Sampras did not want to paint his PS 6.0 85s because he did not want to fool the public. Haas already paints his racquets so does it really matter which paintjob it is? I guess only to Tommy.
     
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  21. Michael Ludwig

    Michael Ludwig Rookie

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    No, I've not held Tommy's frame to an actual MW 200g. And yes, you are correct in that the mold of his actual frame is very similar to the ProTour 630. HOWEVER, it is not a ProTour 630, rather a Dunlop "pro issue" mold. End of story.
     
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  22. jura

    jura Professional

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    Ok, I will check next time when I hold a Haas racquet in my hand.
     
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  23. Racketdesign

    Racketdesign Rookie

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    Ahem... did you all miss my last post ? 300gXL... 98" frame... trust me, Haas swings a Dunlop...
     
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  24. jura

    jura Professional

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    300G XL? You mean 200G XL, right? Anyway, both the 300G and the 200G XL have 16 main strings, Haas uses 18. Haas does not play a longer racquet, never! also his mold is not a common Dunlop.
     
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  25. thomas martinez

    thomas martinez Professional

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    Actually it is a common Dunlop. The frame originally started out as the big brother to Flips old 90 si Revelaiton Pro. Scottie Draper used this model, and I have one or two of them around. The 200G XL comes up out of this mold as well. Haas, Berdych, Blake,, amongst others past and present use frames like this. Granted the lay ups of graphite might have been different, but the mold was the same, and the frame is a Dunlop. I started the Tyger thing, stating that at that time, the closest yo u could buy to a Haas frame commercially at that time was a Tyger Xcel Drive 630, now better yet, if you do not mind a more open string bed, and lighter weight, the 200G XL is straight up out of that mold and wears Dunlop colours. And Haas did try the yellow and black paint for the 200G, he and his coach agreed they didn't like it. Dunlop has and continues to bust their butts to find something he likes. And listen to what Racket Design has to say, dude used to work there, and helped create this one from scratch.
     
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  26. spksz

    spksz Rookie

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    so Michael Ludwig.since you have held haas's racquet before.what racquet model is that?
     
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  27. Sean Dugan

    Sean Dugan Rookie

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    I believe Haas did use a Head Pro Tour 280/630 in the late 1990's. The Dunlop he swings these days is a similar frame, but it must be a Dunlop product because Head would sue Dunlop otherwise. Remember the whole deal with Safin's Prestige? Safin signed with Dunlop and continued using a Prestige, but with Dunlop cosmetics. Head sued Dunlop and prevailed. Wouldn't they do the same with Haas if he was still using a 280/630? Besides, Mike,Tom, and Racket Design actually know what they are talking about, having strung for Haas. So, if they say it is a Dunlop.......it's a Dunlop. Granted, not an off the shelf, commercially available Dunlop but still a Dunlop.
     
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  28. david aames

    david aames Professional

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    EXHIBIT A

    [​IMG]

    EXHIBIT B

    [​IMG]
     
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  29. thomas martinez

    thomas martinez Professional

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    Thank you David. Sad thing is, people will still say it is a Head...
     
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  30. david aames

    david aames Professional

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    Racketdesign,

    could you give us some insights about the Dunlop 'pro room'/'competition' or whatever the name of the place is? How many people working there? Where are the paintjobs done? What level of customization is possible etc...

     
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  31. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    It's a Head :)
     
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  32. Contrary to what you say, there was a new version of the racket Sampras played. It is called the 6.0 85. Sampras played with a unique racket from St. Vincent. His was made during the time when it was just called the Pro Staff Midsize (says so on his rackets). In other words, it had cosmetics that differed from those of the current 6.0 85. Wilson wanted to paint Sampras' rackets with current cosmetics, which Sampras rejected in short order. He said they made the racket feel different. Wilson even wanted to give Sampras some black butt caps when those came out. Again, no. This is all in the chat that we had with Nate Ferguson on the old board. Seems similar but to an even sharper degree to what Haas must have been experiencing?

    I don't think it was because Sampras cared about fooling or not fooling the public either. Though it appears you've been fooled anyway in thinking that a particular player was playing with the new racket just because the new racket was out on retail. If anything, his many fans wanted to see Sampras in the later rounds of tournaments, something that could be more easily accomplished with a comfortable Sampras that didn't need to change anything that wasn't broken.

    Just because Haas already paints his rackets has nothing to do with it. The point of all this is: a player has become comfortable with his old cosmetics, doesn't like the new cosmetics, so why change? Of course other players might be more or less resilent to change. At least, that's why I assume a player would ever reject cosmetics: because that player simply didn't like them, wasn't used to them. Pretty simple.
     
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  33. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    PC,
    So wait, are you saying that Sampras refused to play with a ProStaff that had the little "6.0" designation on them because he felt that this added tiny decal with two little white digits would change the playability of his racquets? I don't think so.

    He wanted to play with the ones that only said "Pro Staff" because those are the ones that were made in St. Vincent and he felt he liked the playability of the ones made in St. Vincent better than the ones made in China. Simple as that. Wilson did not have any raw, unpainted St. Vincent models left to paint with the added "6.0" because the St. Vincent factory was closed long ago.

    The change in the cosmetics was very minor and most people wouldn't even know there was any difference if they didn't look closely. It was still a matte black racquet with red and yellow pinstripes. I'm sure Wilson sold plenty of PS 6.0 85s with the "6.0" on them because Sampras used the ProStaff even if his did not have the "6.0" on them. Wilson marketed them as the same exact racquet and the public assumed it was the same racquet. It was not a "new version", just slightly updated cosmetics. The racquets were made in the exact same way using the same materials. The ones made in St. Vincent were slightly different only because they were actually out of spec due to poor quality control, which made them a little thicker and stiffer. Wilson never meant to make them that way, and never meant to change the racquet to a "new version" when they switched production to China. It was just a change in where the factory was located to continue production of the same model of racquet. Many casual users probably wouldn't even know where their ProStaff was made and that they're any differences in the cosmetics.

    BTW, when I say "PS 6.0 85", I'm referring to ALL ProStaff 85's that began production in 1983 (from River Grove, IL to St. Vincent to Taiwan to China). They are all supposed to be the same model racquet. No new versions, just very slight decal changes (mostly lettering type), and where the factory is located.
     
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  34. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    Breakpoint you bust my chops on every piece of minutia and possible minour insignificant error i 'might have' made, so please indulge me when I suggest that St Vincents did not suffer from poor quality control, they were actually highly sought afer frames because the QC was thought to be better..it was a much smaller factory, they didnt make a broad range of products there, they trained the 'racquet makers' there from the start up and so therefore they took no shortcuts, nor had bad habits, and the attention was greater to detail..it really didnt seem to be a knock out as many as you can type of operation like Chicago and the other mass produced sites..the beam on the st vincent became thicker over time, not because of poor QC, but because the mold as it reached the end of it's life cycle would not fully close..thusly a thicker beam.so even if you have a St Vincent, if the thinner beamed one, those were thought to be not as sweet as the last ones.
     
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  35. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    NBMJ,
    I stand corrected on the point of the mold not closing all the way as the reason the beams were a little thicker, and not due to the factory workers. In fact, I already knew that the mold was the reason (I just wasn't specific in my previous post). However, having worked as a quality control manufacturing engineer in my previous life, to me, ANYTIME the final product is out of the original design specs for ANY REASON, it is considered a faliure in quality control. I know, because, I was the one who would get the heat if my products turned out to be not within the design specifications.

    So whether it was caused by the mold not closing or something else, the bottom line is that the final product was "out of spec" because it was thicker than it was designed to be (assuming that 18mm was out of the design tolerance). Thus, it is considered a quality control "faux pas". Good quality control would have insured that the mold did close properly, or the mold replaced, or whatever was needed to make sure the design specs were met.

    I'm sure you wouldn't want to buy a car if its hood or door panels were just a bit too wide, or if the pistons in the engine were just a bit too big in diameter. It's just that in this case with the Pro Staff, some people (e.g., Sampras) actually preferred the thicker beam that was not within the design specs. I guess it turned out to be a good thing that the QC Team at St. Vincent didn't do anything about the mold not closing all the way or else perhaps Sampras wouldn't have his record 14 Grand Slams! :shock: ;)
     
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  36. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    somehow i expected a response like that from you.........
     
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  37. Marius_Hancu

    Marius_Hancu G.O.A.T.

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    Interesting, Haas using powerpads on that rocket (leather under the main strings at the grommets) ...

    Are those grommets not curvy enough?
     
    #37
  38. Swan Song

    Swan Song Professional

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    Well, if they are the same racquets, then why doesn't the new bumper guards fit the pre Taiwan Pro Staff Midsize?
     
    #38
  39. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    I'm not sure. Perhaps because the orginal Pro Staff (i.e., Chicago and early St. Vincents) were designed not to have a bumper guard?

    But the gist of what I'm saying is that the ProStaff was marketed as the same racquet throughout its life. Wilson never marketed them as new versions nor promoted their countries of origin. I believe they only added the "6.0" designation to differentiate the racquet from the ProStaff 6.1 Classic which they had just introduced. I don't think they meant for the public to view it as a new racquet just because of the change in location of manufacture or a slightly different decal.
     
    #39
  40. Swan Song

    Swan Song Professional

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    In addition to my second post, gmlasam has taken pictures of the St. Vincent Pro Staff and the current (Made in China) Pro Staff, and the mold looks slightly different.

    Please go to the third page of this thread, and there are some images that, again, gmlasam posted.
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=40474&page=2&pp=15
     
    #40
  41. Please tell me what is hard to understand about this: Sampras rejected painting and other rather minute modifications to his rackets. The end. Haas appears to think the same about a new particular paintjob.

    You keep saying things that are just not related to the matter. First this discussion was about cosmetics (which you now admit changed as the Pro Staff went through time, hence paintjob), now it's about molds.

    You say something about there not being any unpainted Pro Staff frames from St. Vincent, and that's why Sampras would reject new paintjobs. It is irrevelant. Sampras rejected change, and paintjobs were change. Besides, I'm not sure about tennis rackets, but unpainted carbon fiber does not have a long life.

    What can I expect in a discussion with someone that likes the 6.0 95 so much? :)
     
    #41
  42. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    PC,
    Do you have any proof that Sampras rejected the slightly altered cosmetics of the newer Pro Staffs (e.g., China-made), ONLY because of the slightly different cosmetics and NOT because they were NOT made in St. Vincent, and therefore, in his belief, had slightly different playing characteristics?

    I suspect that Wilson did not paint any St. Vincents with the newer cosmetics because there were none left to paint, NOT because Sampras would not use them if they did. They probably also didn't bother because no one, except perhaps people on this board would even notice the difference in the slight cosmetic change, and Wilson knew they would sell just as many ProStaffs with the newer cosmetics even if Sampras used the older cosmetic. The fact is, very few people would even notice or care anyway. It's not like the new cosmetic was red with green polka dots, the change was very subtle. So subtle that I highly doubt Sampras, nor anyone else, would have cared.

    If you can show me definitive proof that Sampras had tried a St. Vincent made ProStaff with China-made cosmetics and rejected it SOLELY due to the cosmetics (as Haas has done with the HM200G and M-Fil 200), then I will concede and you win this argument. Until then I find this a poor comparison as Sampras never used a paintjob, whereas, Haas has and continues to do so. Sampras rejected racquets, Haas rejects paint schemes.

    BTW, if you do a search, you'll see that I'm not the only one here that likes the PS 6.0 95. :D
     
    #42
  43. Yeah, I have "proof", I said so in my first (or second, or third, or fourth, or fifth, or sixth, or seventh . . .) post. Why don't you do a search on Nate Ferguson's discussion board chat off the old TW site? I mentioned that that is where I read it. That or the St. Vincent write-up that TW put together, I don't remember. This is a really lame argument, as you put it, that didn't have to be so.
     
    #43
  44. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    Guys, a lot of it may have had to do with superstitions in both cases. Pros are famous (or infamous) for not changing anything that works. If you remember, Sampras changed from Sergio Tachinni to Nike and had achilles problems for about a year. After that, he never changed from the Oscillate. Sampras was Lendl's hitting partner much of the time he came up, and he probably took note of the lack of success of Lendl changing frames late in his career. It wouldn't suprise me if both Sampras and Haas don't change frames simply because they are superstitious about "dancing with what brought them". Haas, in particular, is probably really nervous about changing anything that might affect his shoulder negatively since he sat out a year and a half with surgeries.

    That said, a few years ago, I went back to the ProStaff. I bought a couple from TW and they were manufactured in China. I broke strings in both and pulled out a St. Vincent. I actually could tell the difference in the St. Vincent and the new ones. But, it may have been because I thought the St. Vincent was more flexible which could have been due to its being older and strung more than the new ones. It is thicker through the beam, but I really didn't pay that any attention until Tom Parry posted on these boards regarding the whole St. Vincent deal. (For the record, I did like the St. Vincent better than the new ones. Boy that clouds things...I remember remarking to the guy that I was hitting with that the older frame hit better than the newer ones and honestly, this was all before Tom Parry wrote the story on these boards.)

    I don't see where there is an argument here anyway.
     
    #44
  45. Matt H.

    Matt H. Professional

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    hey david,

    have you hit with Haas's racquet by any chance? how does it comare to the actual MW 200g in terms of power, stiffness, yada yada....
     
    #45
  46. Swan Song

    Swan Song Professional

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    The paint that Wilson used on the Chinese Pro Staff Midsize and the St. Vincent Midsize were different. Although I felt the paint on both versions, I did not pay attention to it so I could not tell, but here is a picture provided by, again, gmlasam in the post I linked in my previous post, http://www.csun.edu/~aml45386/pscompare3.jpg, and focus on the paintjob of the St. Vincent, and I would say that the St. Vincent paint looks "grainy", and therefore, Sampras liked the St. Vincent texture, as opposed to the modern Pro Staff paint.

    Also, BreakPoint, have you ever compared the paint on both versions of the Pro Staff?
     
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