Hanging from bar for shoulder health

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by WildVolley, Nov 4, 2013.

  1. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    In another thread I mentioned that I've been hanging from my hands from a pull-up bar to stretch my shoulder after reading about it at this site:

    http://www.kirschshoulder.com/Kirsch_Shoulder/Home.html

    I've been doing it now for about a month and I've noticed a decrease in shoulder pain and the ability to serve harder again. I hang for about 45 seconds at a time and just attempt to relax. I've been doing this about 4x a day.

    So, I just wanted to suggest this as an inexpensive therapy to try for those of you with shoulder pain from serving. Obviously, this won't cure all problems but I think it can be of benefit to those who are doing the thrower's 10 and other exercises to strengthen the shoulder region and prevent future injuries. Or people who have taken time off from serving to rehab the shoulder.
     
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  2. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Feels great to me, and about 45 seconds.
     
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  3. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    That's good. According to the guy at the site, it stretches something called the coracoacromial ligament, which helps limit impingement and helps the shoulder heal.

    Now rehab that shoulder and get so you can toss down 120mph serves again.:)
     
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  4. red rook

    red rook Rookie

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    What angle of the arms are advised?
     
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  5. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Hanging with hands shoulder width apart.
    120's I won't ever see again, but 110's is a possibility on days when the courts are over 70 degrees, and I"m not tired from previous sports.
     
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  6. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    I think it is best to hang about shoulder width like LeeD suggests. I think I've actually been hanging slightly wider than that, but with the arms basically vertical.

    I haven't tried doing narrow grips.

    You can ease into it if you have any pain when you start. The best way to do it would be to be able to put your feet on the ground and not have the full bodyweight.

    It also should be possible for people with grip problems to use straps like weight-lifter types use to take pressure off the hands and fingers.
     
    #6
  7. movdqa

    movdqa Legend

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    I do this for about ten seconds as part of my pre-run stretch routine. We have a pullup (wide and narrow), pushup, roman chair and dip structure at the office gym and it's a convenient place to do your stretch and daily dips, roman chair and pullup exercises.
     
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  8. red rook

    red rook Rookie

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    Did I read that link right that this guy made a book about hanging from a pullup bar? Yes? Okay just checking.
     
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  9. WildVolley

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    Yes. Yes he did.:)

    It does sound stupidly simple, but I haven't read the book. I guess he goes into some detail in the book about what he claims it does and how to do it, but really it is just hanging from a pull-up bar, so there's no need to buy the book to try it out.

    All I care is whether it works or not. I'm not a person who derives a lot of placebo effect from expensive physical therapy. In my anecdotal experience, it seems to do good things and since I have a pull-up bar at home I can do it daily.
     
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  10. dman72

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    I did this the other night before having even read this post. I have been lifting weights fairly heavy and I feel like my serve is declining as I bulk/stiffen up.

    So, I used the pull up bar in my garage to do some hangs. I used a narrow grip.

    Ouch. I couldn't do it for more than 20 seconds because it started to hurt. I really felt the stretch in my deltoids.

    I realize I'm really tight in the shouldes and lats. I took a few days off and I will hang some more after I lift tonight.
     
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  11. dman72

    dman72 Hall of Fame

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    Guys got to make a living!!
     
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  12. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Raising the arm high with interference

    I'm a little rusty on this issue and don't know if it has any relevance. Research if you think it applies to what you are doing.

    A book by Horrigan in the 1990's, The 7-Minute Rotator Cuff Solution, said that the arm should not be raised high with the shoulder in internal rotation. That was because there are muscle attachments to the front of the upper arm and a bony ridge (greater tubercle) that sticks out slightly and this shoulder position will increase any impingement. Don't try this if you have any shoulder pain - There is a simple demonstration of raising the arm very gently while in internal shoulder rotation and comparing it to raising with external shoulder rotation. External shoulder rotation is more free and natural.

    He particularly warned about the exercise of upright rows. It is somewhat inconsistent that he now writes a column for a muscle magazine where some of the exercise routines in the magazine still include upright rows. ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upright_row Please refer to the original or more recent information and research this issue. He also lists other exercises to avoid or modify.

    It seems reasonable that the IRS or ESR orientation of the shoulder matters. If so, is hanging from the shoulder OK? The grip on the bar will affect the degree of rotation that the shoulder is in. Are both an overhand grip on the bar and an underhand grip OK and equally safe ?

    In these issues the movement and position of the scapula is important. The scapular position may vary between individuals.

    On the other hand, people do pull ups and chins with different grips. ?

    Also, people with any kind of injury are different than those with normal healthy shoulder as discussed above.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
    #12
  13. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    I was hanging at a bar watching football Sunday and it didn't seem to help my shoulder one goddamn bit.
     
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  14. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    You needed to spend more time doing it.
     
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  15. WildVolley

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    You bring up some interesting issues. I am doing the hanging from the pull up position with the palms facing forward. It may be that it is safer to do the hanging externally rotated from a chin up position (palms facing to the rear). I assume the book goes into these issues, but I haven't read it.

    LeeD might have some insight as he was having trouble with his rotator cuff and had to use his off-hand to lift his hitting arm to pat his head. In the past when I've strained my rotator cuff, it would have been difficult to get into a hanging position as I wasn't able to lift my hand above my head.

    About three years ago I did a fair amount of shoulder rehab as I had somehow locked up the rear of my shoulder and up to my neck. I didn't attempting hanging at that point.
     
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  16. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    I should have ordered the wings.
     
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  17. WildVolley

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    I'd advise that you adopt a shoulder width grip as LeeD suggests when you perform this. When I first did it, I felt a lot of stretching across my chest and even between my ribs even though I was targeting my shoulder. At first I found it difficult to breath easily from the hanging position, but now I'm much more relaxed.

    Carefully assess the pain you are feeling. I haven't felt any sort of injury pain when doing hanging. Just the sort of discomfort you get from stretching. So make sure you aren't making anything worse. According to the book it is a motion that should generally be safe for humans.
     
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  18. forthegame

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    Do you simply hang or do you pull up?
     
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  19. Chotobaka

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    A door will also work in a pinch (just lift your feet), although you can get more variety of hand positions and movement (like squats) from a bar. Great way to decompress your spine and muscles.
     
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  20. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I never had a pull up bar to hang from, so I just grab the top door jam with my fingers.
     
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  21. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Shoulder impingement pictures
    https://www.google.com/search?q=sho...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

    Some of the pictures, but not most, show that the part just below the ball of the humerus that has knobs and is not circular in cross section as shown in most inaccurate pictures. Turning that upper arm bone so that the high point of a knob impinges is to be avoided.

    Horrigan emphasized this point. I don't recall what he had to say about pull ups or hanging.

    I did just find a site about pull ups and that there were comfort differences but that has to be researched to understand Horrigan's point and what current practice has to say about it. He convinced me that upright rows were more risky and that I should just avoid them.

    I speculating on this - One difference between hanging and pull ups, etc. and the throwing sports that cause injury is that the weight of the body may tend to pull the joint apart. ??

    Have you looked at the Ellenbecker video? It's the best thing that I've seen for the tennis serve.

    Can't say that it is an issue for you or others but research it especially if your shoulders have any injuries.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
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  22. red rook

    red rook Rookie

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    Chas I can't find the ellenbecker video you're talking about. Any help as to the name of the video?
     
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  23. WildVolley

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    I was just discussing hanging.

    I do pull-ups as part of my workout, but I don't normally go all the way down when doing a pull-up, that always feels slightly unsafe, while hanging isn't an issue. I don't know enough about the working of the shoulder to know if that transition from a dead hang to a pull up is potentially an issue when my shoulder isn't 100%.
     
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  24. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Search (above on this TW page): Ellenbecker

    Finds lots of informative threads on the serve. Most of them probably have a post of mine describing & linking the Tennisresources Ellenbecker video. 20 minutes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
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  25. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    #25
  26. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    The Jim McLennan videos from 2008 are very useful. They are actually clearly demonstrating internal shoulder rotation without identifying it. See 1:05 "turning my arm," that's ISR. But there are a few points that might be misunderstood.

    1) The angle between the forearm and racket is changing very rapidly - it starts when the arm is straight at roughly 90°, goes to a much smaller angle by impact, say, 35-20°, and then continues on to almost forearm-racket straight line, momentarily. The total time for this phase in a high level serve might be only about 20 milliseconds. It would be totally wrong if someone interpreted that the forearm racket is set to an angle and impacts the ball as in the demonstration. The forearm-racket reaches a specific trained angle - different for each type of serve - when the racket impacts the ball and then continues on, fast and smooth.
    The motion, showing the above angles and how rapidly they change. See just before and after impact.
    https://vimeo.com/27528701

    (To attempt stop action on Vimeo, press the play-pause button as fast as possible.)

    2) The arm rotation shown is internal shoulder rotation.

    3) The rotator cuff primarily holds the upper arm bone (humerus) in place - not so much for 'rotating' as stated. The internal shoulder rotator muscles (lat, pec, etc.) rotate the straight arm around its axis.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
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  27. mbm0912

    mbm0912 Professional

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    I was thinking the same thing :confused:
     
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  28. boosted180

    boosted180 New User

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    Does hanging help with all types of shoulder pain or is it just for if you have a tight shoulder and hanging will help to stretch it out?

    My problem is actually my shoulder is too *loose*. I feel like during serving, it gets pulled out of it's socket (although by just a very small amount), and this is what cause pain for me.

    Flexibility is not my problem, so I was wondering if hanging would be helpful in my case. My problem is looseness and weak/ sensitive rotator cuff muscles/ tendons (mostly tendons).
     
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  29. WildVolley

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    I don't think it is a cure-all. The guy pushing it claims that it helps with certain impingement issues.

    In your case, I think you need to do a general strengthening routine. In my experience, building up the external rotators (those muscles that help the shoulder rotate your arm toward your back) can help keep it from being pulled forward during serving.
     
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  30. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    This hanging solution puzzles me. It might very well work for shoulder impingement but it is counter-intuitive to my mind. I would think that it might possibly cause a shoulder impingement rather than fix it -- at least based on information that I've gleaned from Ellenbecker, McLennan and other shoulder experts. We have been told to minimize lifting the elbow significantly higher than the shoulder line, particularly with throwing or hitting/stroking motions of the arm.

    Is there something fundamentally different about the shoulder hang that "cures" shoulder impingement rather cause it? A number of sources have indicated that chimpanzees & monkeys do not develop shoulder problems despite their habit of hanging and swinging from tree branches. However, I believe, the anatomy of their shoulder structure is somewhat different from our own.
    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
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  31. movdqa

    movdqa Legend

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    I do it because it feels good afterwards. I do a number of other shoulder-related stretches in my pre-run warmup which also loosens things up.
     
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  32. RogueFLIP

    RogueFLIP Semi-Pro

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    The key with the hanging is to make sure that once you're in a somewhat comfortable position, that you need to breathe and soften into the stretch.

    You need to scan your whole body and allow tension to release.

    Now obviously you'll need to keep tension in your hands and forearms in order to keep yourself holding on, but if you keep tension in the shoulder region and abdomen, then you won't be getting as an effective stretch.

    And if you could strap your forearms to really let the body just hang, you'll find you can tolerate quite a bit of time and you might find the sensation quite freeing.

    I probably wouldn't recommend going into a pull up if you've been doing the stretch first.
     
    #32
  33. drak

    drak Professional

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    been experimenting with this the past 5 days as my shoulder was acting up. Fortunately we have a weight assisted pull up machine at my club and I can ease into a shoulder hang. I've been very careful and so far it feels good and I think it is helping. The weight assist allows me to really relax as I still have a full hang but not with full body weight.
     
    #33
  34. boramiNYC

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    Hanging upside down works also great for stretching in the opposite direction. Horizontal hang is great also. You can also do pulls just using the shoulder blade muscles. Really improved my arm control.
     
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  35. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    I'm not sure I completely understand it, but I think that you are not too far wrong. What you have with hanging is the passive lifting of the arm into an impingement like situation but with out the rotation and muscle action that can cause injury. According to the author of that site, this stretches the area involved with impingement issues.

    From the website: http://www.kirschshoulder.com/Kirsch_Shoulder/Shoulder_Imaging/Shoulder_Imaging.html

    "This brief animation video was created to allow the viewer to understand the dynamics of the humeral cortex applying a bending force to the acromion."

    I advise looking at the videos on that page. I've seen the Ellenbecker video and I'd definitely be hesitant to throw with my shoulder straight up in the socket, but I find hanging is not at all a similar movement as throwing.
     
    #35
  36. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    ^ You may be correct about this. Can't say for sure. (Right now I am on some public computers that do not allow videos from Youtube and some other sites). I was hoping that RogueFLIP, Posture Guy, CharlieF or Chas Tennis might chime in on the apparent contradiction that I had mentioned.

    Also, with this therapy, should the grip be wide or narrow? Shoulder muscles contracted or relaxed? I've seen some reference to "shoulder packing" on bodybuilding & weightlifting sites. Is there any mention of this from Dr. Kirsch?
     
    #36
  37. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    No answer but some considerations -

    Earlier I said that hanging might pull the shoulder apart. I now think that is wrong or not clear and will correct.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=pic...zvH7TEsASrxoGYDQ&ved=0CCsQsAQ&biw=995&bih=575

    The hand has the bar. That pulls up on the humerus. The humerus is held to the Scaplua by the rotator cuff muscles. The humerus is also held to the body by attached muscles (lat, pec, etc.). The Scapula is attached to the body by some light duty joints but mainly by many muscles located all around the Scapula especially near its edges (Trapezoids, Rhomboids, etc.). Fascia also? I think that the Scapula would be held up by the hand and arm with most body weight suspended below held by the muscles/tendons attached to the Scapula. Some weight also held by humerus to body muscles (lat, pec, etc.) . The Scapula with Acromion would be pulled upward by hanging. (Instead of the 'arm attached to the body', I view the arm-Scapula assembly as attached to the body.)

    The clavicle is more part of the body and would tend to be pulled down hanging on or resting on the Scapula/Acromion. I guess the clavicle through the AC joint would put a downward force at the tip of the acromion. Not willing to say this would increase pressure where impingement occurs under the acromion. ?

    I have interpreted the Ellenbecker video to mean that violent internal shoulder rotation with the humerus at an elevated angle, possibly also along with some shoulder humerus ball & socket instability, is a risk for impingement for healthy shoulders. They believe that this mode is a common way that shoulders are injured in tennis. This shoulder orientation is what all pro servers are doing. I did not interpret it to mean that just raising the arm without the ISR rotation was nearly as bad.

    In the Horrigan book, I believe that he said that with some pre-disposed shoulder bone structures that impingement can occur at much lower angles (even as little as arm 60° up from the side ? ). Not sure if ISR was mentioned with regard to that issue.

    The flouroscope of the shoulder in reply #35 is very illuminating.

    Still, can't see that hanging is OK. It would seem to compress the impingement area. It does not have the joint ISR rotation - which you can picture would be very rough during ISR with the humerus and acromion pressed together. I don't necessarily see ISR in hanging. Do you?

    All bets off for injured shoulders.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2013
    #37
  38. WildVolley

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    When you have time to get to a computer with access to video, you'll find that the link I gave gives some fairly clear pictures about what is happening in the shoulder when you hang. Basically, the acromion arch (hope I'm getting that correct) is pulled up and then the humerus does push against it through some sort of cartilege or something. The doctor running that site claims this stretches the arch and lessens issues of impingement. If it is already severely injured, this might not be the case.

    I haven't read the book, but from the diagrams and images, hanging is done from a pull-up grip (so the arms are somewhat internally rotated) at shoulder width with muscles relaxed. Apparently this is called brachiating and is similar to what a child swinging on the parallel bars does on a playground.
     
    #38
  39. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    I've tried this daily for about a week now and it definitely has aided my (mild) shoulder issues. I think the key difference in the overhead position here compared to exercises such as throwing/lifting is most of the muscles are not under too much stress if you hang in a relaxed fashion.

    The rear and underneath areas of your shoulder certainly are under tension but the front and top aren't which are the two areas where most people's problems begin. I have felt more limber both my shoulders and upper back since starting these.

    (note: where I hang my feet touch the floor so I do about a few warm-up hangs where I'm only supporting part of my bodyweight hanging and then I do a 20-30 second full hang)
     
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  40. Posture Guy

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    Interesting thread with some great replies, but my favorites were 13 and 14, had me belly laughing.

    SA, hanging is fundamentally very different than actively lifting the arms, you don't have to use muscles to maintain the elevated arms so it becomes a passively held position instead of an actively achieved one. In most cases of shoulder impingement, when someone lifts their arm the head of the humerus is positioned forward in the socked such that sub-acromial space is minimized, then as they lift they tend to have a lack of scapular glide and rotation so to compensate they engage the upper trap to lift the entire shoulder complex, and now we get active impingement.

    I haven't had a chance to look at those videos posted above but I will. They sound great. What I'd imagine we see in hanging is as the arms elevate the scapula elevates, but then in hanging we can relax and the humerus drops relative to the scapula, thus creating increased space below the acromion. But I want to check out those videos and see what they show.
     
    #40
  41. maggmaster

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    So you recommend that you relax the shoulder entirely? My PT had me do hanging but did not allow me to let the shoulder sag, the idea was to hold the shoulder in position while suspended. It helped me a lot and I still do that from time to time.
     
    #41
  42. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Thanks for the feedback on this point, PG. Also good feedback from WV, RogueF, Chas, & Bobby.
     
    #42
  43. Posture Guy

    Posture Guy Professional

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    I try to spend some time hanging every day. And this is how I do it. Now for all I know a physical therapist might read that and run screaming from their computer in horror, but it feels great and I'm getting good results from it.
     
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  44. Posture Guy

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    I'll also do one arm hangs, letting my body rotate enough that I get a good pull through the shoulder down through the lat and the transverse abdominus. That REALLY feels good.
     
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  45. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    That rotation really seems as if it would cause impingement with both pressure and rubbing.....?
     
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  46. beernutz

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    Has anyone fashioned or bought some type of wrist clamps, similar to what is clamped onto your ankles when using an inversion table? It seems like that might allow your hands to relax while hanging and possibly allow a better shoulder stretch.
     
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  47. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    [​IMG]
    If the opposite shoulder is dropped as pictured above (and as we do in a proper serve motion), it would seem to me the one-arm hang would be ok and the rotation (ESR and ISR) might be ok as well.
     
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  48. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Are you suggesting something similar to the strap that RogueFLIP mentioned in post #32?
     
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  49. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Yes, has anyone fashioned or bought something like what he referred to?
     
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  50. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Ya, I bought something like that from a S&M site
     
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