Has anyone actually been found out to be on a silent ban?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by papertank, Aug 15, 2012.

  1. papertank

    papertank Hall of Fame

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    Every time someone is out for a long period of time, like recently Soderling and Nadal, there will always be a few people that say they aren't injured but are on a silent ban for doping. Has this ever actually been the case for anyone? Why is it such a popular response for why someone is out?
     
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  2. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    I don't believe either of them doped and their stories check out.
     
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  3. ivan_the_terrible

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    We may never know since the ITF is notoriously secretive when it comes to the big names (Agassi & meth).

    A big name getting caught & publicly outed would be very detrimental to the image of "tennis is a clean sport".

    Some folks believe it is impossible to hide such a secret, but think of the Carl Lewis situation in 1988 - he tested positive leading up to the Olympics and should've never competed in it. However, it was hushed up and he ended winning the gold after Ben Johnson was busted.Lewis' drug use only came to light decades later (not sure about the exact date).
     
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  4. decades

    decades Guest

    no. if that happened it would no longer be silent. there are plenty of silent bans over the years. you just never heard about them because they were silent.
     
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  5. DeShaun

    DeShaun Banned

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    I wonder if authority does not find out, make a judgement call, and proceed on a case-by-case basis in any sport. Take the case of Lewis, in which he tested positive for some relatively "less invasive seeming" light weight bronchial inhibitor, or some such sounding substance. When images of anabolic steroids come to mind, so too did/does imagery of needles and more invasive seeming imagery. Also in the case of Lewis, the vast majority of the Santa Monica track club where he and other Olympic track athletes trained also tested positive for that same bronchial inhibitor, though nobody's levels were off the charts reportedly and so, it seemed not an unhealthy thing to be taking and it was widespread in which many individuals over had been convinced of not only its benefits but also of its "safety;" suggesting not so much the case of one outstandingly evil man's secret desire to cheat at no bounds, as though some common reservoir of peer pressure was poisoning everybody's well, for which authority may have wanted to avoid nailing just one guy to the stake.
     
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  6. ivan_the_terrible

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    Let me add that the knock against the silent ban theory is that the likelihood of a top player getting caught is pretty slim. In order to have a silent ban, one would have to have stringent out of competition testing which doesn't exist today. The majority paltry amount of testing in tennis is done during the slams, sometimes there is no testing during other tournaments!

    Remember Odesnik was never caught by testing, he was busted by Australian customs.

    For perspective, Victor Conte of Balco fame was quoted as saying 60% of the athletes in past Olympics were on PEDS. How many were caught? Just a few unlucky ones from Eastern Europe! Also of note, 117 athletes were excluded from the Games for drug use before it began- these names were never announced.
     
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  7. tudwell

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    What is the penalty for doping? Puerta got banned for life, didn't he? Is there a policy that allows for only a few-month-long ban, whereby a top player can feign injury and avoid public suspicion?
     
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  8. ivan_the_terrible

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    While I agree it wasn't as potent as steroids, it shows that authorities (despite having rules that say he should be excluded), secretly allowed him to compete. A similar case is that of Hope Solo (Womens soccer goalie)- she tested positive for a masking agent, came up with the usual excuse of "I didn't know etc etc" and was allowed to compete and they won the gold. Glaringly on the USADA website, another athlete (not a big name) using the same drug was suspended for 6 months.
     
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  9. aprilfool

    aprilfool Guest

    Vamos~

    If we knew about it it would not be a silent ban, no?
     
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  10. ivan_the_terrible

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    Truth is that no one knows. Apparently, the ITF is under no obligation to announce anything.
     
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  11. DeShaun

    DeShaun Banned

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    Maybe the interpretation on rules is subject to the profile of the athlete under question and these "rules" are rather a bundle of suggestive guidelines than any exhaustive collection of cookie cutters.
     
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  12. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

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    The only confirmed case i know was sureshs who didn't post for 6 months and claimed he was on vacation. However, I am sure he;s off the juice now since his thread are now full of fail. :D

    What is the point of a silent ban ? If the only fallout is that you can't compete for a few months, but no one knows then they might as well just let the person keep competing. Athletics has a 2 year first time ban, second time it's life. What's the point of a short ban ????
     
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  13. tudwell

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    Interesting. I know some people suspected Henin when she retired so suddenly in 08 but came back later. I can't imagine they would force Nadal to miss only Wimbledon, for example, back in 09 if he had been caught doping. Surely that was a legitimate injury.
     
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  14. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Tennis is run by big organisations called bureaucracies which run by rules and procedures that are publicly available so if you believe in 'silent bans' you really have lost faith in all public institutions.
     
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  15. mistik

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    I dont buy that silent ban stuff.He was looking very slow against Rasol.The only thing that made that match 5 setter rather than a straight set victory for Rasol is Rafas serve was good that day.
     
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  16. Arafel

    Arafel Professional

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    It wasn't a masking agent, it was a diuretic. She was taking something prescribed by her doctor that is used to treat menstrual irregularities. If you research it, you'll see that it's actually very likely her explanation is true.
     
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  17. BrooklynNY

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    Uhhh yeah.... Public institutions are run by individuals.

    Penn State is a very recent example of a public institution failing it's people.
     
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  18. フェデラー

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    That's exactly what the ITF would avoid if these "silent bans" are real. Could you imagine the damage to the image of the sport if one of it's biggest, most important players, Nadal, was caught doping? The "fallout" would be massive. He brings so much money to the sport, rivaled only by Federer, and if people knew Nadal was doping, a lot of people would lose money over it. Keeping the ban short means that he "learns his lesson" (no prize money at all), but the ITF cannot afford to keep him out for too long otherwise they would lose money from him not being at events.
     
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  19. DeShaun

    DeShaun Banned

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    Why induct all institutions born by the public or its elected officials meant to serve civil society itself into the class of institutions which are essentially private for profit whose only "public" -ness consists in their public availability of their financial statements, their charters, their rules of order, which together singularly really does not seem to qualify them as belonging to the same class of "public institutions" born of the public or its elected officials, meant to serve civil society. C'mon, you're playing sloppy with terms.
     
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  20. 6-1 6-3 6-0

    6-1 6-3 6-0 Banned

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    So how did you hear about them?
     
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  21. Banger

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    Perfect rebuttal. I believe he has been banned for rest of the year.
     
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  22. DeShaun

    DeShaun Banned

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    I saw it differently. It's true that Rafa played relatively poorly at Queens where Kohlschreiber played relatively well. Agreed?
    But against Rosol, I saw Rafa waiting around late in the match. . .he looked extremely focused and well prepared to spring a bone-crushing steel trap on Rosol in the very instant that his level should drop. . .but it never dropped. Still, Rafa was prepared to snatch the match away, just had that look in his eye--he did not look to be hurting or injured to my eye, only getting punishingly outhit while waiting for Rosol to cool off.
     
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  23. ivan_the_terrible

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    Diuretics are known as masking agents because they are used to flush the system rapidly of PEDS. That's why it is on the list of banned substances.

    She may or may not be telling the truth - but the other athlete was suspended for taking the same diuretic hence the double standard.

    I don't wish to derail this thread, I brought this up as an example that people should not be naive as to believe everything they are told.

    Corporations lie, governments lie, people lie all the time. When very large amounts of money is at stake, never underestimate the level of corruption.
     
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  24. DeShaun

    DeShaun Banned

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    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, but some authority figure alleges that it is not a duck and you are mistaken, you can either trust your own experiences and go it alone, or you can smoke those cigarettes based on the assurances that your physician and dentist have given you after they were misled by literature that was "reviewed" by purchased experts. Too many people for too long have suspected that at least some of his performances were "artificially" enhanced to levels "unsafe" on the human body; although, the mere thought of him serving a six month ban is almost unthinkable because such a lengthy ban against so profitable a figure would seem to suggest that they were in possession of a mountain of incontestable evidence against him--how do you tell someone "You're done earning money through us for the rest of the year?" They could be trying to "penalize" him for his outspokenness while he headed the players' council, too.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
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  25. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    I hate to burst anyone's bubble but I'm pretty sure that testing of tennis players is performed by WADA. I guess it's not impossible that they are also in on the conspiracy, but it's bloody improbable IMO.
     
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  26. citybert

    citybert Professional

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    Let's remember that Agassi was given a pass even tho that was not a PED. Also there is a lot of evidence showing Michael Jordan may have been on one due to gambling, hence the baseball career.
     
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  27. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    By the ATP, in a pre-WADA in tennis world.
     
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  28. citybert

    citybert Professional

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    Doesn't WADA report their results to the ATP? Then the ATP can do what they want with their results? I thought WADA criticized the ATP a while back about the ATP not publicizing some of the results but could be wrong.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/te...A-anger-over-ATPs-handling-of-drug-tests.html

    Also WADA is funded by IOC, which is nowhere near the cleanest organizations in the sporting world. It is a fact that they have taken bribes altho that was a long time ago.

    But that being said I agree with you- very unlikely but nothing is impossible.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
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  29. mistik

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    Rosol level in that match highly exaggerated.He played really well in the 5 set but there was nothing special about the guy in the previous sets.
    Thats a fact.
     
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  30. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Wow, someone here actually gets it. It's a miracle.
     
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  31. merlinpinpin

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    The Serena Williams "foot injury" is just about a textbook example--depending on the "witnesses", it was either her right foot or left foot that was cut, or not her foot at all, nobody could remember what restaurant this happened in, it was reportedly so severe that she had to have an operation and couldn't walk on her foot... but still played an exhibition match the day before she was supposed to have said operation, etc., etc. Absolutely nothing adds up in this (cover) story.

    For Nadal, the fact that he's supposedly injured after destroying everyone on clay and appearing perfectly fine in Wimbledon is bound to raise questions, just like it did when he missed Wimbledon in 2009 (when the two exhos he played against Hewtt and Wawrinka (I think) seemed more like excuses ("I can't--my knee--I can't") for his subsequent withdrawal than anything else). But these are just suppositions at this stage.
     
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  32. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    To avoid all suspicions, why ban him at all?
     
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  33. ivan_the_terrible

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    He could be under suspension awaiting results of the 'B' sample, in this case no one is required to say anything (presumption of innocence and all that).
     
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  34. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    yeah, but if the ATP is "covering" for him according to poster I quoted, why suspend/ban him at all?
     
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  35. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    Example for the others.
     
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  36. purge

    purge Hall of Fame

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    i think there is no general rule on this. it will depend on the sport and even on who you are and what country youre from oO

    didnt that US sprinter gatlin already get banned twice for example? the 2nd time was for 4 years or sth like that. so he already proved he didnt learn from his 1st suspension. and yet hes allowed to participate again

    in tennis i could imagine some nobody tested positive getting a lifelong ban and a superstar getting a few months and maybe in silence. thats just how the world works

    im not going to speculate about the accusations against nadal here btw since theres nothing anyone on here could say about that which isnt just pure speculation
     
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  37. フェデラー

    フェデラー Hall of Fame

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    It's probably very complicated reasoning, and possibly not even logical. They can't not do anything, because then it would look like they are endorsing doping. However, I do not necessarily believe that the ATP is actually doing this, because I would imagine that other players, like Federer, Djokovic, Murray, et al. would want something like this to come out. If i was one of them, I sure as hell would want to know if someone was a cheat, and if doping contributed to a big performance increase which in turn resulted in my loss of a tournaments and prize money. I'm also skeptical because, well Rafa's knees being a weakness is not at all surprising. We have all watched him over the years, and any individual with half a brain could see that Nadal was probably going to ruin his body with that grinding style. He has changed his style a lot over the years to try and combat the degradation of his knees. I would be more skeptical of his knees had he not already withdrawn from a lot of tournaments in the past. Another point that does not add up is why the ATP has caught him so few times (I mean his only major periods of time off were the 09 FO-Wimbledon, and now this, which is a lot longer (and also three years later of constant playing). So only two "silent bans" after he has already been a major winner for seven years? How have they caught him so few times? Why then? Why now? Why not anytime before? It just doesn't add up.

    At the end of the day, sometimes players get injured. And if any player is going to retire because of this, it's Nadal. This span of time to be out of the game is oddly long, and to me that mean's he does not have time left. Now if he comes back to the AO and starts playing 5+ hour matches again against Djokovic/Fed/Murray, then I will begin to doubt that there was ever anything wrong with his knees.
     
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  38. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    ITF conducts the testing, which is WADA compliant( allegedly, even tho there is little if any blood testing)
     
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  39. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    If that happens it will be an indirect confirmation, that he either had mental problems, that were just amplified by his lingering physical issues, or was on a silent ban.
     
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  40. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    As for silent bans, its not so much a silent ban but this:

    "Silent bans" are not permitted by WADA. The Code states that within 20 days of a guilty finding at a hearing (tribunal), public notice must be given. As a Signatory of WADA, the ITF can't follow or draft rules that are in conflict with the Code.

    Provisional suspensions are permitted under the Code without public notification until the completion of a tribunal. It would be possible for a player to be past the point of a positive "B" sample, but prior to the point of a tribunal, and that player would be provisionally suspended (fully WADA-compliant) without the public knowing about it.


    http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/W...DP-The-Code/WADA_Anti-Doping_CODE_2009_EN.pdf
     
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  41. hcb0804

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    Silent, but deadly......my favorite kind.
    "It wasn't me!!"
     
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  42. citybert

    citybert Professional

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    I think it goes without saying silent bans are NOT within their guidelines and rules but think the OP and what others have asked or speculated on this thread is whether or not these people broke their own rules to benefit themselves or what they think will be in the best interest of the sport/tour/league.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
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  43. SLD76

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    well, that is the billion dollar question.

    Personally, I dont doubt for a minute that a djokervic, federer, nadal, williams or sharapova would be protected by the powers that be.

    For any of those players to be publically outed as a doper would be MASSIVE.

    But as I said, its against WADA not to publish the alleged doper so, the issue really is, would WADA stand by on the sidelines and let the ITF get away with it.
     
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  44. RMSserve

    RMSserve New User

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    Maybe they should just release the names from Operation Puerta
     
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  45. The-Champ

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    how would the others know if the information is "silent"?
     
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  46. The-Champ

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    Every Nadal match is a grind. If he comes back and play AO and if he wins, your conclusion is that he probably was banned?
     
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  47. Sentinel

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    I mean the impact on a top player, who earns far more on endorsements than on actual prize money, and who already has earned upward of 20 million.

    So you are saying that if there is a public ban, or a silent ban of 6 months or more for a top player, then tennis suffers. So the only option is a short silent ban, which is more like a slap on the wrist. Totally ineffective since the player can continue using banned substances.
     
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  48. Sentinel

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    What is the wait period for 'B' samples ? Don;t tell me you have to wait for months. In some cases, I've seen results coming out in a few days itself (IIRC).
     
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  49. Dustin Johnson (golf) served a silent ban in 2012. (cocaine)

    Claimed he injured his back lifting a jet-ski
     
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  50. vladap

    vladap Rookie

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    exactly. what's the point of such a ban if it doesn't set an example for others
     
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