Has Anyone Looked At The Wait Lists

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by tennis5, Feb 11, 2012.

  1. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Has Anyone Looked At The Alternate Lists For The Feb Open?

    Oh My, It Is Staggering How Many Kids Are Being Shut Out.

    Does The Usta Look At This Ever?

    How Could This Be Could For Tennis, If So Many Kids Are Boxed Out?
     
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  2. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    The always long wait list can be interpreted as "tennis growth" in this country, which is the best news for American tennis.

    I wonder how the USTA interprets it?
     
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  3. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    ..................:(:(:(:(
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2012
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  4. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    Why are you people so stupid ?

    See they are building all these tennis courts around the country and trying to get more kids at a younger age involved out in the country ,the inner-city kids and when you get droves of kids involved you make sure the tournaments are small and no one can get in.

    See doesn't that make sense ?
     
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  5. BSPE84

    BSPE84 Semi-Pro

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    Makes perfect sense - if you happen to work for one of the big racquet companies... right? ;-)
     
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  6. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    the government.

    THey are running it like the government.
     
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  7. TennisFan2Day

    TennisFan2Day Rookie

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    Lew Brewer's great vision for USTA junior tennis.
     
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  8. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I am pulling this from the other thread...
    Article about Tournament National changes...

    Timon Corwin states:

    TC: Far too many tier two and three players (200 on down)

    ( were competing in national opens).

    But, think about it, you have a few kids from 9th grade
    ( the kids who are the true age)
    who turn 15 and are aged out of the 14's.

    You have tenth graders...

    And you have probably 1/2 of 11th grade

    who are trying to get into 4 tournaments with 32 kids.

    So, roughly 120 slots for all of the above.

    Basically, you have a lot of 4 star tennis players and some 5 star players who can't get into a tournament.

    Are they not worthy of playing?
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
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  9. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    For me, it is a little abstract to try to answer if a lot of 4 and 5 star players are worthy of playing in a tournament. But I hope someone else can grasp that and come up with an answer.

    If someone could propose a specific number of how many should be in a national tournament, that might be something more tangible we could grapple with.

    There are about 200 four-stars and above in each graduating class. If the proposal is that the draw approach 200, I think that would be a logistical challenge.

    What is the debate? 64? 128? Whatever the number, I think players 65-100 or 129-150 could also ask why they are not worthy of playing.

    In any case, the line has to be drawn somewhere, and I don't think any 4-star should feel he or she has an entitlement to play in a national........and feel deprivation if they do not make the cut.
     
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  10. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I think if your son was a 4 star sophomore or junior,
    you would probably be disappointed if he couldn't play.
    Obviously, junior would be more upset...

    In regards to the draw,
    you state, If the proposal is that the draw approach 200, I think that would be a logistical challenge.


    Right now, it is a 32 draw with 4 tournaments in different locations = about 120 kids TOTAL

    I think the draws should be 64 per national open ( again, there are 4 of them),
    that would be under 240 kids TOTAL,
    as the USTA would probably grab some wc.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
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  11. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I would have no problem if the draws were 64.

    To everyone and no one in particular: All 4-stars are not created equal.

    TRN gives four stars to players #75 through #200. My limited experience tells me that #75--100 are in an entirely different class from #150--200, even though they are all 4-stars.

    It is not for me to preach, and if parents of four-stars make the choice to feel a sense of deprivation if their children don't make the cut for a national.......because they believe their children have an entitlement to be chosen, go for it.

    I just think this is negative energy that saps focus from positive initiatives.........such as working harder than ever to try to make the cut next year.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
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  12. justinmadison

    justinmadison Semi-Pro

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    My son was a 4 star player TRN ranked 191 when he played his last tournament in the US before we moved overseas. I guess you feel he was not “entitled” to play.

    It was a level 2 tournament in 2011 with a 32 draw. He defeated two four star players and two blue chip players before losing in the finals to a blue chip player.
     
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  13. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    No. Never said that. Don't even know who you are, and never saw your son play. (EDIT: I don't think I have, after all I don't know who he is)

    What I did say is that anyone who doesn't make the cut....for anything in life.....has at least two choices: wallow in feelings of deprivation or use the experience as inspiration to work even harder. You apparently disagree, and that's cool.

    Your son made (not missed) the cut you referred to, I wouldn't know you or your son if I tripped over either one of you.....and no, I wasn't expressing any opinion on whether your son deserved to make the cut in some tourney a few years ago that I know nothing about.

    As with all references to rankings, they are all "on paper". I am as guilty as anyone of not including that disclaimer or caveat in every post that refers to rankings or "stars". Some of us think it is understood on a board like this.

    But if it provides some positive benefit for you to come here and express the feeling that somehow I personally insulted your son, I guess I am glad I gave you that outlet.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2012
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  14. jigglypuff

    jigglypuff Rookie

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    I don't know justinmadison from adam or eve but I do know you're putting things in his mouth. So a kid who does not make the 32 cut is wallowing in deprivation and not working harder? What's wrong with making it a 64 draw to counter the WCs and point chasers?

    Your attitude just irks me on different levels... imagine telling someone who did not make the "cut" because of their skin color or gender that they should stop whining and work harder.
     
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  15. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I said above that I would have no problem if the draws were 64!!!!

    I never said that racial or sexual discrimination are appropriate for anything!!!

    It is too bad that you feel irked by my opinions. But I am surely not going to submit drafts of my posts to you to proofread ahead of time. And I am going to try to continue to accurately quote or refer to others' opinions

    One suggestion would be to put me on "Ignore"............please
     
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  16. jigglypuff

    jigglypuff Rookie

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    And miss out on your elitist views? :shock:
     
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  17. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    You are one insult after another.

    Yes, I recommend that you ignore my posts from now on to save the Board from reading the type of response such as your last one.

    In the meantime I continue to believe that anyone who doesn't make the cut....for anything in life.....has at least two choices: wallow in feelings of deprivation or use the experience as inspiration to work even harder.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2012
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  18. dbordel

    dbordel New User

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    Like!

    ten characters
     
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  19. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I feel like you are missing the point.

    And I am wondering if you have a junior who is involved in this system?

    If yes, does he/she play the tournament circuit?

    It would help understand your perspective better.........


    There is no help or hope of working harder if the system is somewhat rigged.

    JustinMadison was telling about an experience where his son could make the cut ( as he had not aged up) and showed that IF YOU COULD ACTUALLY GET IN, he beat many fine players.
     
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  20. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I am both a parent and a coach. Went thru the junior tournament and college recruiting experiences in both capacities. But I don't see what difference that makes.

    I'm just sharing my opinions, not trying to convert people to my point of view. I could very well be wrong.

    No problem if people disagree with my opinion that anyone who doesn't make the cut....for anything in life.....has at least two choices: wallow in feelings of deprivation or use the experience as inspiration to work even harder.
     
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  21. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Well, this is the parents talking on the board about this subject.

    Our griping about an unfair system doesn't trickle down to the kids.

    The kids don't wallow in deprivation.... Uh, their kids.

    Too self absorbed in their school, tennis and social lives......

    If we had a President of the US and we disliked the changes that were made, we could vote him or her out.

    In the USTA, there is no voting out......

    It's just their way, and so far, among the many changes that I have seen, their way is not always right.

    Happens to hurt a lot of kids who get stuck in the middle.

    And the 10 and under is a perfect example, of the USTA mandating it their way with no concern or care
    that their NEW system might not work for some kids....

    Some of the other parents here want their 4 star player to have some national exposure at national tennis tournaments where the coaches actually come out and watch the players..........

    But, the USTA changed it, so the draws are small, UNLESS YOU ARE A USTA PLAYER AND THEN YOU GET A WC.

    How do you rise above that?????

    How do you rise above someone getting off a wait list
    when the other kid is way down on the list, but happens to be PD kid, waitlisted at #50 on the alternate list,
    and your kid is #2.

    Folks don't mind working hard when the system rewards on merit.
    But, they tend to get angry when hard work gets passed over.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2012
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  22. TennisNola

    TennisNola New User

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    Just a hypothetical here, but I'm curious. Let's take tennis out of the picture for a moment. If your child was applying to college, and was clearly a better candidate that one of his classmates, but he was denied and the classmate accepted because his father was a major donor... Wouldn't you just try to teach him a life lesson, rather than moan about what appears to be a 'clearly unfair' scenario? Bottom line.. there are very few systems in this world that do reward on merit. Often, hard work is passed over. Such is life. Now, relate that back to the tennis scenario, and what's the big deal? This will likely happen over and over during your child's lifetime.. It's how he reacts to it that will be important.
     
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  23. Freak4tennis

    Freak4tennis Guest

    I've been staying out of this one. And maybe I should continue to stay out of this one. IMHO your analogy is not a real good one. If my son or daughter got passed up by a college, or a job then the next logical conclusion is suck it up, move on and apply to a competing job or university.

    With the USTA there is no competing system except the ITF which is more of an international versus domestic system. Now if there was the USTA and AJTA (American Junior Tennis Association) my new system. Then you would just support the other system. FYI there is no AJTA (I just made that up) but the point remains the same.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2012
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  24. TennisNola

    TennisNola New User

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    No reason to stay out of the conversation as long as we are all being civil. I guess the point that I'm trying to make is NOT that the situation is fair, or even at all reasonable (although I do believe that there are some reasonable alternate viewpoints). Trying to make the point that many, many other things in life aren't going to seem fair either.. and that the attitude that is brought to the situation is what will add to the shaping of the child for the future..
     
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  25. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Your missing the bigger issue. Grow the game!
    Why does there have to be a life lesson learned here?

    It's apparent that there are many many kids that want to play the nationals. Just look at the wait list. Do you exclude them because someone feels that they are not worthy? Of course not, maybe they are not as talented as the 5 star or Blue chips, but they still have passion for the game.
    Those are the kids that we need to continue to play tennis.

    They will get there kids and grand kids involved with the game.
     
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  26. TennisNola

    TennisNola New User

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    Personally, I don't think I'm missing "the bigger issue". I just think that's a separate issue. Thankfully, there will always be loads of passionate yet average kids and adults involved with tennis.. I just don't think they need to be at higher level National Events.
     
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  27. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Thanks for pointing out the obvious, that there are other colleges out there.

    College is not a monopoly.
     
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  28. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Who are you to say that they don't deserve to play at a higher level?

    There are 3 & 4 star kids that balance school, tennis and social gatherings, but are still passionate about their tennis. Just because they can't train 5-6 hours a day like home school or academy kids, doesn't mean that they should be excluded from playing national tournaments.

    If you had a child that played nationals, you know it's not just about the tournament, but its about the life time experience. making new friends, visiting new cities being together as a family.
     
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  29. dbordel

    dbordel New User

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    I don't think it is a question of growing the game. It seems to me that they are just narrowing the top to intensify or focus the competition at that level. There are still plenty of localized or regional tournaments. If a kid dominates in his/her age group there, then start playing up more and/or moving to the next level. I think that is the intention.
     
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  30. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Ok, I will bite.

    You state, "Bottom line.. there are very few systems in this world that do reward on merit. "

    Many years ago, college were attended by the wealthy and the sons of sons, legacies. They did not reward on merit, but on power and privilege.

    They kept out the minorities. African Americans were not accepted at many schools.


    People didn't accept the status quo......

    As there are no life lessons to be learned when a system is flawed.


    Skip to today, my son is not aware of all the changes, he is a KID...

    For me, the USTA is a monopoly that likes to keep the changes hidden until they are passed.

    If I see unfairness, I will comment on it.

    Back to my son, I hope when he is an adult that he doesn't just accept unfairness in life.

    The quote is a tad lofty for a tennis site, but it is one of my favorites:

    "Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope."
    Robert F. Kennedy
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2012
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  31. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Narrowing from 196 to 16 draws? Play regionals against the same kids over and over? Maybe works in Socal or Florida, but not in the northwest or northeast.
    With 16 draws, (USTA gets 6 wild cards), your not going to have all the top kids playing nationals.

    If these changes take place, then I can see tennis kids moving to other sports.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2012
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  32. TennisNola

    TennisNola New User

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    I certainly do have a child that plays Nationals who really isn't there to make friends or visit new cities or be with family. That's exactly the point. It doesn't make your 3 or 4 star less passionate. Just different from your 5 stars and Blue Chips. AND, please let's not forget that the National draws were shrunk, and tournaments pulled from the schedule to better accommodate the public school kids, not the home schooled kids.
     
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  33. TennisNola

    TennisNola New User

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    I think you've made a clear point.
     
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  34. TennisNola

    TennisNola New User

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    Please understand that I agree that the system is flawed. Also, please note that i didn't say that we should accept it, but that the way we manage our attitudes (and/or our children's) is what will shape them in the future. So, be vocal if you disagree. Do whatever you can do to change things to make them better for yourself or your child. But also teach the child that we cannot always change things, and we must find the best ways to manage even the things we don't like.
     
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  35. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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  36. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Playing Nationals is much more than just about the competition. What do you do with your down time, stay in your hotel until the next match?

    My child made life long friends from across the country, never had problems finding a doubles partner.

    For me it was wonderful to discover new and exciting cities with my child.
     
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  37. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Tennis Nola,

    I am a grownup, my son is still a kid.

    The information flows up, never down in a grownup/child relationship.

    I don't share my thoughts, my problems, my concerns with my son.

    Kids need to focus on kid stuff.... school, my serve, my girlfriend, etc.
    and that info can flow up to the parent ( I got a 12 page paper due next week), but adults don't share the info down ( mortgage, taxes, job).

    Again, I am on this board griping....

    I already spoke to my sectional twice about the March vote.

    But, I don't involve my son in this conversation.
     
    #37
  38. tennisforlife77

    tennisforlife77 Rookie

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    I have had 2 kids go through the junior system and one just starting national play. My first had a lot of success early on, was always a 5 star/blue chip and had no issues getting into any level national he wanted. My second was talented but never had the early success and was a perennial 2 star. Somewhere between his sophmore and junior year a light went on and he really wanted it in tennis. His national options were pretty limited and so yes he was one of those points chasers but he was willing to go to South Dakota on a $73 Southwest flight because that was the L3 he could get into. He worked his butt off and 2 years later is a 4 star hoping to be a 5 star recruit. As a parent it has been a great thing to watch and much more satisfying than the success his older brother had. I am glad he is finishing with junior tennis and moving on to college because under the new system he would never have had a chance.
     
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  39. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Earlier on in this thread, when I was more clear about the complaint than the solution, I asked a poster what size draws he would recommend. The answer was 64. I said I could support that.

    What size draws are you seeking that would satisfy the 3 and 4 star players you refer to above, who shouldn't be "excluded from playing national tournaments" as you put it?

    Seems that you'd have to get to 128, no?
     
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  40. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Yes, 128 would be fair. With less and less national tournaments, and more regional play, why not keep L1,2 tournaments the current draw size.

    I just don't buy that part of the reason why the USTA reduced or will reduce national tournaments/draw was to "help the public school kids" and "reduce costs" for families.

    Some posters claim that this will help the "cream will rise to the top" theory, but the top kids rise at a young age and are identified by the USTA at that young age.

    The bigger issue is that kids, some 3 star most 4 star will not have any exposure to college coaches as they have in the past at super nat'l tournaments.
     
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  41. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    64? 128? There are things to be said for both, I guess. If forced to choose between the two, I'd probably go with 64 to make the achievement really special, and try to motivate youngsters to work really hard to try to attain it. I don't go for the "No Three-Star Left Behind" policy.

    But even at 128 you'd have some passionate three stars "excluded" as you say. So that might not fully address the point you made a couple of posts ago. And what about the passionate 2-stars who would like to have "life time experience, making new friends, visiting new cities being together as a family" as you put it.

    I guess my point is that no matter what the size of the draw, there will have to be a cutoff somewhere based on some kind of assessment of ability/achievement. Those who just miss the cut....wherever it is...can bemoan their "exclusion" from a lifetime experience, new friends etc, if that is their choice........and the argument would never go away.

    Instead of the 3 star advocates raising the issue, maybe it would be the 2 star advocates. On the other end, some blue-chips-through-high-4-stars would probably complain about wasting their time with 0-0 matches in the first round

    Anyway, I've got no problem with 32 and could accept 64.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2012
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  42. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    There should be one summer National tournaments for B16-18 and G16-18 with large draws for college recruiting. I've got no problem with 192 and could accept 256. I also have no problem with this tournament not awarding WC to US Open. And I even have no problem with USTA running another Super Supernational at the same time with the draw of 16 (12 wildcards) with WC into US Open for the winner. They can even run it secretly at Boca. But the rest of "passionate" players will have a chance to show college coaches what they got. This should not ruin the US tennis.
     
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  43. Tcbtennis

    Tcbtennis Professional

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    My son is a five star and though he has not played many national tournaments he has played many sectional and state tournaments where he has won 0-0 or 1-1 in the first or second round. Not once has he complained about these matches being a waste of his time. He has used these early match ups to groove his strokes, perfect his drop shots, work on patterns of play. He once was the 1st seed at a designated level tournament and took his low ranked 1st round opponent for granted and quickly went down a set and a break. He ultimately won the match in a third set tiebreak. But both he (as the #1 seed) and his opponent (who probably came into the tournament with low expectations) learned a lot after that match. And it most likely made them both better players.

    But this is just my son. Please, if there are parents of high ranked juniors who feel that winning 0-0 in the first round is a waste of time, let us know why?
     
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  44. watergirl

    watergirl New User

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    Sorry in advance for taking this a different direction but I was talking to the d1 coaches at the college in our town (both men women's programs are in the top 10) and they could care less about stars. Instead they are using the universal tennis ranking. They consider it to be more accurate and are only interested in girls ranked a level 12 and boys 13 preferably a 14.
     
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  45. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Back in 2010, all super's were attended by BCS, Div1, 2, 3 , Ivies and baby Ivies.
    In my kids junior year, was recruited by 3 mid majors, 2 Ivies and 2 baby Ives.

    Not going to happen with 16 draws.
     
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  46. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    That's a suspect statement by the college coaches
    .
    TRN star ranking system is probably the most widely used recruiting tool for college coaches.
     
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  47. watergirl

    watergirl New User

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    What would make that suspect? We were at the L-3's, we know them, we asked who they were looking at and they started talking about levels, I asked what's that and they explained.

    They have now and the last 10 years teams that have won national championships, top 10 ranked for that time.

    When I asked about TR and stars they just flat out said they were no longer using TR but instead were relying on the Universal Ranking.

    One of the things they liked about it was that it gives weight to close matches.

    You don't have to like it but they have no reason to tell me this other than I asked.
     
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  48. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    ........................
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
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  49. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I have spoken to quite a few college coaches ( powerhouse D1's and Ivys) that my son and I have met throughout this year at warmups and tournaments. They were looking at other players at warmups and my son was there, and got an introduction ( although I doubt they were interested in meeting my son).
    Anyway, I do ask the question about what they are looking at when evaluating a player, and you will be surprised that they do not care about TRN ( their words...). They said what was most important to them was seeing the kid play.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2012
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  50. jigglypuff

    jigglypuff Rookie

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    The coaches all know how to play the PC game. The few blue chip recruits that I've run across gave me this info (whether true or not) on what coaches look at...

    1. Top ranking kids in/near the school's section
    2. TRN
    3. Boosters' kids & kids whose parent/parents played for the school (in other words, kids that played HS ball and see no action at the collegiate level but are magically on the roster for a few years)
     
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